New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

1) What is the reason for the occupation? 

2) Can you guarantee safety for Israel if they end all occupation?  

1. They treated Palestinians so bad that they now fear their revenge and hence they feel the need to occupy them. Similar to how the Nazis were terrified of the advancing Soviets towards the end of WW2 because of how the Nazis had treated the Soviets earlier in the war. The reason Palestinians are scary to Israel is because of how Israel treated them throughout the decades. It turned them into hateful fanatics against Isarel. Not all, but some.

2. I am all for taking out Hamas but not in the way Israel is doing it. They can do surgical bombing and send troops in the tunnels. I would much rather have Israel loose 5000 soldiers than have 10.000 kids die in Palestine.

They can easily have quotas. For example: If I kill 1 hamas fighter what civilian toll is acceptable? The IDF has killed 80 people for 1 Hamas guy. That ratio is not acceptable. If there are 10 Hamas guys they want to kill but doing so with a strike would kill 100 civilians, then you do not do that strike. You either surgically attack them like they did in Lebanon and if that cannot be done you send soldiers. You loose 4 soldiers but save 100 civilians. It is not rocket science.

Edited January 6 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

1. They treated Palestinians so bad that they now fear their revenge and hence they feel the need to occupy them. Similar to how the Nazis were terrified of the advancing Soviets towards the end of WW2 because of how the Nazis had treated the Soviets earlier in the war. The reason Palestinians are scary to Israel is because of how Israel treated them throughout the decades. It turned them into hateful fanatics against Isarel. Not all, but some.

2. I am all for taking out Hamas but not in the way Israel is doing it. They can do surgical bombing and send troops in the tunnels. I would much rather have Israel loose 5000 soldiers than have 10.000 kids die in Palestine.

They can easily have quotas. For example: If I kill 1 hamas fighter what civilian toll is acceptable? The IDF has killed 80 people for 1 Hamas guy. That ratio is not acceptable. If there are 10 Hamas guys they want to kill but doing so with a strike would kill 100 civilians, then you do not do that strike. You either surgically attack them like they did in Lebanon and if that cannot be done you send soldiers. You loose 4 soldiers but save 100 civilians. It is not rocket science.

   I partly agree with this post, and agree that Israel probably should have implemented quotas to assess a ratio of HAMMAs to civilian kill ratio, and settle on some reasonable ratio there. The real issue would start not at surgically attacking them, like they did in Lebanon(are you referring to the Beirut assassination here, or what they did years ago in south Lebanon that created Hezbollah?), the problem is sending in soldiers. Urban warfare is actually difficult to do especially when you may have about 10-100 civilians in a building with 1-10 or so HAMMAs terrorist fighters. Without intel of the interior of the building, exact numbers of civilians to MAMMAs, and the right training to clear each room, it can be difficult plus the civilians themselves will panic and be frightened when seeing IDF soldiers, and in the middle of a gun fight. Control of scared civilians is more difficult when you also have to deal with terrorists firing at you or your team.

   Here's sort of a primer on urban warfare, the guy knows his stuff, but honestly I say he's downplaying how difficult it can be:

 

[Karmadhi]

44 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Urban warfare is actually difficult to do especially when you may have about 10-100 civilians in a building with 1-10 or so HAMMAs terrorist fighters. Without intel of the interior of the building, exact numbers of civilians to MAMMAs, and the right training to clear each room, it can be difficult plus the civilians themselves will panic and be frightened when seeing IDF soldiers, and in the middle of a gun fight. Control of scared civilians is more difficult when you also have to deal with terrorists firing at you or your team.

Thing is that Hamas mostly stays in tunnels not in houses. That is where their supplies, weapons etc are. So you need to take out the tunnels to get Hamas funadementally. In order to do so i mean Israel has like 400.000 soldiers. Just go in there carefully. Tunnels warfare is not a new thing. . They outnumber Hamas 10/1 plus superior technology. No civilians in tunnels either.

Plus also bombing areas that are deemed safe, bombing hospitals etc is not acceptable.

Edited January 7 by Karmadhi

[Merkabah Star]

3 hours ago, lina said:

According to the article I shared, it look like he does support it and he seems to have finally reach a conclusion that this looks like an actual case of genocide, but of course as everyone else he doubts the impact of the trial on countries like USA or Israel or if a fair trial would even be allowed. 

Yes, he does support it as genocide. I just listened to him on Glenn greenwalds podcast, I will post it here when it’s uploaded onto YouTube, he said that he is being careful about his wording. Maybe for legal reasons?

[Merkabah Star]

4 hours ago, lina said:

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/genocide-in-gaza

Recent post by John Mearsheimer: 

"For the record, I believed Israel was guilty of serious war crimes--but not genocide—during the first two months of the war, even though there was growing evidence of what Bartov has called “genocidal intent” on the part of Israeli leaders.5 But it became clear to me after the 24-30 November 2023 truce ended and Israel went back on the offensive, that Israeli leaders were in fact seeking to physically destroy a substantial portion of Gaza’s Palestinian population." 

'seeking to physically destroy a substantial portion of Gaza’s Palestinian population' which clearly fits the Geneva convention definition of Genocide. 

Below quote is from the comment section to the above link.

 

“Writes Roslyn’s Substack

1 hr ago

It appears that Israel seized this opportunity to take its slow-motion genocide to a whole new level of brutality.

The eight techniques

1. Kill them: Bomb Palestinians indiscriminately (here, media attention, pressure from allies such as the US, and international protests can have a certain effectiveness in restraining Israel). Despite Israel’s assertions that it is taking measures to protect civilians, the realities on the ground show otherwise, with non-combatants forming the bulk of the casualties. Schools, hospitals and apartment buildings have been directly targeted.

2. Starve them: This is being done through blockades of food and water supplies. Again, this is nothing new; it has long been part of a concerted and organised Israeli policy to deprive Palestinians of even the most fundamental of all life-sustaining resources, water. 

3. Strip them of medical care: Israel is maximising the casualty count by destroying medical infrastructure, including hospitals, thus ensuring that many who might have been saved will instead die from untreated injuries. 

4. Spread disease among them: The collapse of medical infrastructure, along with catastrophic living conditions, has guaranteed the spread of disease, risking another significant wave of deaths.

5. Exhaust them through forced evictions: Taking a page from the Armenian genocide, Israel is now using forced relocation, first from Gaza’s north to the south, then within the south, to make exhausted and often injured people move from one allegedly “safe area” to the next. A grid map published by Israel has divided southern Gaza into hundreds of tiny parcels, between which people are being forced to move at short notice to avoid bombs.

6. Destroy their environment: What is happening in Gaza is a veritable ecocide. The amount of environmental destruction, through everything from durable pollution to military ammunition, is enormous and could affect future generations.

7. Atomise their society: The systematic destruction of governmental and administrative structures under the pretext of fighting Hamas has upended Palestinian society. By displacing the majority of Gaza’s 2.3 million people, Israel is severing their social links; it is unclear how they will be able to recreate a society in the future, especially as Israel has tried to tie all civilians to Hamas and intends to maintain control over the territory and its resources for the foreseeable future. 

8. Break their spirit: For decades, Israel has used psychological warfare to foster a sense of despair and helplessness among the population. This has been terribly effective among the most vulnerable: Gaza’s children, many of whom suffered from severe depression and suicidal thoughts even before the current offensive. Given that Israel also makes it nearly impossible for them to be treated, most will suffer long-term trauma.

The above eight methods are all forms of collective punishment, with consequences bound to last for at least a generation, even if the war were to end today. 

Dr Alain Gabon is Associate Professor of French Studies and chair of the Department of Foreign Languages & Literatures at Virginia Wesleyan University in Virginia Beach, USA. He has written and lectured widely in the US, Europe and beyond on contemporary French culture, politics, literature and the arts and more recently on Islam and Muslims. 

His works have been published in several countries in academic journals, think tanks, and mainstream and specialized media such as Saphirnews, Milestones. Commentaries on the Islamic World, and Les Cahiers de l'Islam. His recent essay entitled “The Twin Myths of the Western ‘Jihadist Threat’ and ‘Islamic Radicalisation ‘” is available in French and English on the site of the UK Cordoba Foundation.”

Edited January 7 by Merkabah Star

[Merkabah Star]

@Danioover9000

lol at the MAMMAS typo. 🤡🤡🤡

[zazen]

13 hours ago, kenway said:

2 hours ago in Lebanon.

Indiscriminate use (A) of white phosphorus (B) against a third civilian population (C) disconnected from Gaza (Lebanon).

Like the killing of civilians in the West Bank, it just makes a mockery of Israel's claim of credible military strategy.

SA vs IL ICJ hearing in the Netherlands next week.

That’s nuts. In their 2006 war with Lebanon obscene amounts of cluster bombs were used for the land area. 

 

[kenway]

10 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@kenway

   What do you think is the probability of Israel being found guilty in this UN tribunal case?

 

South Africa will almost certainly win the case. They have prepared a very solid portfolio indicating evidence of genocidal intention.

Having said that, the application is only for provisional measures of protection - to demonstrate the possibility that Israel is committing genocide.

On the one hand that makes it an easier case to win, but doesn't necessarily imply guilt (yet), but rather just enough to enforce a ceasefire.

[Majed]

Wise words :

 

[kenway]

 

With precision weapons like these I wonder where these dead civilians are coming from?!

Latest death count as reported by Euro-Med Humans Rights monitor:-

30,676 killed.

28,201 civilians.

6,103 women.

and

12,040 children.

Note that Israel has managed to successfully kill more children than it has women. At this point it should be assumed that the IDF is trying to break King Herod's record.

 

 

[Bobby_2021]

13 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

No of course not but Israel has done most of the fault here by being created at the expense of others. You cannot give a homeless a house by kicking the person that lives there out which is basically what Israel did. People say it is because of the 1948 war but even if Israel was invaded and it won the war, it does not excuse them kicking out 750.000 Palestinians. When France defeated Germany in WW1 it did not kick out 30% of the German population. The number of Palestinians kicked and the land stolen was too high in my opinion. If Israel stopped treating Palestine and especially the West Bank like a terrorist state but instead gave those in West Bank same rights as Jews and treated them within international law it would improve a lot. No snipping childreen or illegal settlements.

I think moderate parts in Palestine do want a two state solution but ideally it would be a 50/50 or 60/40 split.

The controversial position on occupation by displacing the Palestinians.

This is really tough position I admit.

I cannot blame Israel for occupancy of the Gaza, West Bank and th Golan heights. Those positions are of high strategic importance and vital for the security of Israel.

 

Also why is governance in Palestine so incompetent? There must be some powerful entity like the government to rule over Palestine. Whoever ruling them has to ensure they don't harbour terrorist activities in their state. And put an end stop firing rockets onto the other side.

Can you really blame Israel for firing rockets when there are rockets coming down to Israel as well?

You can always negotiate with Israel to stop bombings. But can you do the same with an unreasonable side.

So Israel too matters into it's own hands and took control of the governence of these strategic places. 

I say that some international entity with significant arab presence must establish law and order in Palestine to make sure that Israel doesn't expand occupations further and don't commit more oppressions.

This occupation thing is really complex. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

14 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Thing is that Hamas mostly stays in tunnels not in houses. That is where their supplies, weapons etc are. So you need to take out the tunnels to get Hamas funadementally. In order to do so i mean Israel has like 400.000 soldiers. Just go in there carefully. Tunnels warfare is not a new thing. . They outnumber Hamas 10/1 plus superior technology. No civilians in tunnels either.

Plus also bombing areas that are deemed safe, bombing hospitals etc is not acceptable.

   Tunnel warfare is even more difficult considering that it's mostly one way, little cover, and sometimes you have to deal with darkness. A more classical historical example of tunnel warfare:

   That's just nuts, and I even heard some historical accounts in the siege of Constantinople they also tried digging tunnels too.

   During the Vietnam war, the North Vietnamese dig many tunnels in the wilderness, and the Americans had to carpet bomb and clear the jungles a bit to deny them cover.

   Or there are other reasons why they went really hard on the wilderness of Vietnam:

 

Edited January 7 by Danioover9000

[Nivsch]

On 5.1.2024 at 3:38 PM, Vrubel said:

@Nivsch I would advise you to leave this this thread. Let this thread become an incestuous echo chamber of lies and deceit. Maybe it will become so toxic people will go full circle and gather their senses. These people have no idea they are being played just as the Palestinians are being played as disposables by Iran.  

Not bad up until now

Next time Israel must give her enemies more credit on their cleverness.

Look what hamas dragged Israel into. It was all planned by it just because it knows it has no chance in front of Israel's military, it uses another deffense mechanism we are all see and hear from it today all around the media.

Israel has to stay strong and finish it, to not have to never touch this polluted swamp ever again. 

Edited January 7 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

28 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Not bad up until now

Next time Israel must give her enemies more credit on their cleverness.

Look what hamas dragged Israel into. It was all planned by it just because it knows it has no chance in front of Israel's military, it uses another deffense mechanism we are all see and hear from it today all around the media.

Israel has to stay strong and finish it, to not have to never touch this polluted swamp ever again. 

   Maybe on this part I'd partly agree with you here. HAMAs, on the oct 7 launched their into villages on Israel's side, and did kill some and take some hostages also from that party. Even in this event there's little evidence to conclusively determine HAMMA's actual intent or motif for this attack, whether it was planned, or it was an independent decision on their side with no involvement of Hezbollah or Iran. This portion I think whether you're pro Israel or pro Palestine, or just an outsider, we all have to agree that we're speculating their motifs in this event. IMO, my intuitive speculation of this Oct 7 was HAMMAs hoping to drag Iran and Lebanon and it's neighboring resistance groups that share it's ideological cause of attacking Israel, and hoping for Israel to attack far more aggressively. The first purpose was a dud, Iran and the rest stayed reasonable and were more intent on just talking aggressively at Israel, but no rapid military action from it's neighbors followed this attack. The second purpose is IMO 50/50, Israel did militarily responded, and Israel's definitely straining from it's international relations especially from the UN tribunal South Africa plans on charging them for genocidal acts, and planning on limiting what they could militarily do.

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I cannot blame Israel for occupancy of the Gaza, West Bank and th Golan heights. Those positions are of high strategic importance and vital for the security of Israel.

You do realize all the land around Gaza is stolen land? It was not in the 1947 plan. So Israel should not cry when stolen gets attacked. Why are there Israelis on those towns to begin with? 

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Can you really blame Israel for firing rockets when there are rockets coming down to Israel as well?

I blame Israel for pushing people to the point of firing rockets on them. Terrorism comes as a result of bad policy.

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I say that some international entity with significant arab presence must establish law and order in Palestine to make sure that Israel doesn't expand occupations further and don't commit more oppressions.

That and also giving people in West Bank same rights as Jews in Israel. That would help a ton. Not treat them like a terrorist state.

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

Tunnel warfare is even more difficult considering that it's mostly one way, little cover, and sometimes you have to deal with darkness.

What do you suggest to minimize civilian deaths?

40 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Israel has to stay strong and finish it, to not have to never touch this polluted swamp ever again. 

They want to annex it and cleanse it of Palestinians and build more settlements there. Check what your right win fanatic ministers are saying.

Edited January 7 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

@Danioover9000 

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

into villages on Israel's side

Are you shocked with people for killing the thieves that took their houses from them? All those lands Hamas attacked are stolen land illegally. The 1947 borders did not consider them to be in Israel .  I mean it is extreme but understandable. 

[Karmadhi]

 

Very nice interview.

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

@Danioover9000 

Are you shocked with people for killing the thieves that took their houses from them? All those lands Hamas attacked are stolen land illegally. The 1947 borders did not consider them to be in Israel .  I mean it is extreme but understandable. 

   Not really, but I am shocked at how this little conflict has made most people stupid, making them feel like they're forced to pick a side, us versus them, binary literal thinking, polarizing the spectrum and so on. Only real issue here, which I'd partly agree with @Nivsch in a rare moment of agreement, was when he brought up Oct 7, to which I stated that the majority of us or them speculating on HAMMAs motifs is just us speculating on very little facts and evidence that conclusively determined HAMMAs planned Oct 7, or Oct 7 was a opportune moment for them, or whether Iran or Hezbollah knew or not. That's my take. But remember this is a rare moment I'd agree with that user, we're mostly contentious ATM.

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 

Very nice interview.

   I agree, decent 20 minutes interview, may do a body language analysis, which I did on Owen Johns here before a bit, IMO got an aggressive communication style, tempered with that British accent, with some under lying tension in his tonality, and MY GOD, so much head and body movement per statement made, also does emphasizes with head and sometimes body. I might do another body language analysis of him.

   I'm just wondering how much did he pay the other guy in bitcoin to come on?

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

15 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

You do realize all the land around Gaza is stolen land? It was not in the 1947 plan. So Israel should not cry when stolen gets attacked. Why are there Israelis on those towns to begin with? 

I blame Israel for pushing people to the point of firing rockets on them. Terrorism comes as a result of bad policy.

That and also giving people in West Bank same rights as Jews in Israel. That would help a ton. Not treat them like a terrorist state.

What do you suggest to minimize civilian deaths?

They want to annex it and cleanse it of Palestinians and build more settlements there. Check what your right win fanatic ministers are saying.

   I can't posit a suggestion on how to minimize civilian casualties. Maybe taking the war slower and being more careful in it's military operations, but then again even if the utmost caution is done, IDF and HAMAs gunfire will still result in a few civilians dying. War is just fucked up for any side involved.