New War In Israel / Gaza

[Danioover9000]

@Gennadiy1981

11 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Wow you still have this thread. Seriously you are really obsessed, move on. @Nivsch & @Vrubel why are you wasting your breath, at this point its just back and forth conversation, you will not convince them, they are determined against Israel no matter what. Just focus your attention to help Israeli soldiers and the country instead of immersing yourself with this pointless debate. Why are we even arguing for Israel's right to exist, we are here to stay, period, even if all the anti-semites of the world will scream otherwise, thats the best what they can do is scream. 

If they love so called "Palestinians" let them absorb into their country and create Palestine in their region. Spare us the trouble.

 

   In your biased opinion, of course.

[Karmadhi]

11 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Because today the operation was based on a very accurate indications about a specific person's location.

But when you have to destroy fortifications hamas built all over Gaza using entire neighborhoods to, what else can you do?

I still can't see another realistic way.

I get your point but I am sure less people would have died if they actually cared.

Also lets say 500 soldiers will die instead of 100, still worth it in my opinion if it spares like 8000 innocent childreen.

I know they are Palestinian but still innocent since they are childreen.

Israel obsession with minimum military casualties is partly responsible for this.

If they want to commit war crimes, do it on Hamas fighters. Rape them, hang them in middle of square, shoot all POWs idc, just leave the kids alone...

And if 500 soldiers lives to you are worth more than 8000 kids, at least for the rest of the world they should not be and Israel should be coerced into it. By coercion I mean thread of sanctions, cut of diplomatic ties, War crime courts and public condemnation. 

I see this as a conflict between 2 parties where a third party (the kids in Gaza) just happen to be there and are suffering under it much more than the other two.

In my opinion it is unfair that because 2 parties are in conflict, the third party should suffer disproportionally compared to the other two.

So to me as a global citizen, if 1000 IDF soldiers need to be sacrificed to save 8000 childreen then to me it is a deal worth making. I am sure it may not be for the IDF but for the rest of the world it should be.

Since those 8000 childreen have 0 responsibility for the attack on Israel, by default their lives should have priority in the eyes of the world since first they are childreen and second the number is way higher than the IDF lives that have to be sacrificed to ensure they will not die.

But my last paragraph is more towards non Israel, non Arabs. I do not really except Israelis to be ok with what I said.

Edited January 3 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

3 hours ago, zazen said:

It seems like any building can be seen as a fortification of Hamas base if there's a single Hamas member there. Al-shifa was said to have Hamas's command centre for weeks leading up to it and when they got there and destroyed it/caused death they barely found anything while the world waited for footage and proof. In fact Ehud Barak said Israel built a bunker there when they occupied Gaza to which he got backlash because he's not following the script or narrative of what will make Israel look good.

The bombs being used are 2'000 lbs which are some of the largest, they explode out parts/shrapnel that damage anything within a large radius and create craters which can be seen in South Gaza in area's where Gazan's were told to go for safety - even refugee camps are being bombed.  Israel's leadership and propaganda seems to have brainwashed its own society into thinking its doing the right thing the same way US elites and military interests did to its own society to secure its 'national security' in the Middle East. Maybe Israeli society is also held hostage to this leadership, and Bibi is hostage to his far right base of support including Ben Gvir and Smotrich. Bibi benefits from continuing this war for his political and legal survival. In a sense, the US and the world is hostage to him and the region/world hangs in the balance by how they go about this war to escalate it to something that pulls in bigger plays and destabilises the world.

Whenever people share deluded statements from Israeli society the defence is that they are just radical, clowns or extremist and that its not reflective of the population. But what matters is the people in positions of power and leadership. When you have the mayor of Jerusalem denying Christians or functioning churches exist in Gaza or Israeli Ambassador to the UK denying a humanitarian crises exists in Gaza - this is utter denial of reality by people who actually matter - not random people on the street. This is what the world see's. 

The voluntary migration of Gazans is displayed as humanitarian and moral but coercing someone into doing something and ensuring they’ll die if they don’t do it is the exact opposite of what the word “voluntary” means. Israel's actions have made Gaza uninhabitable and dangerous. Violently creating conditions that endanger their lives to the point that they don't have any choice but to leave isn't voluntary - and statements and intentions shown by Israeli leaders of settling in Gaza make the case for this being a ethnic cleansing campaign pretty obviously.

Its said there are 600'000 fighting age men in Gaza. Defeating Hamas would mean defeating the new military recruits Israel's actions will create from this. Including Houthi's who are giving Israel a taste of its own medicine by blockading a sea lane which shipments have to go around Africa for and to which the increased cost of that ends up at the end user of those goods in Israel which is already suffering economically. Then you have Hezbollah who Israel couldn't defeat in 2006 and who are only stronger now. That's Israel's triple threat - Hamas, Houthis, Hezbollah - HHH (WWE reference lol). Diplomatically it's already lost the world and US seems to be losing patience also but the narrative is that a military solution to a political problem makes Israel safer and is in its national interest - rather its in the interest of a few only.

   I agree at this point any building in Gaza may be seen to be a HAMAs fortification from IDF, considering the many tunnels they made. I hope Israel and others clean the mess they made in Gaza with all that building and social infrastructure destruction.

   I agree there ae 2,000 pound bombs being dropped, which are designed to have shrapnel going outwards. That type of bomb is in fact too large and too heavy for precision bombing, and yes in war times propaganda and brainwashing go way up to demonize/dehumanize the other side in this Israel/Palestinian conflict. I can't believe some here don't see in this binary opposition the asymmetries in this conflict in terms of suffering and trauma, that the Palestinians have it way worse than Israel even before this new conflict with HAMAs.

   I agree with that statements, typical generalizations and distortions of reality, putting Israel on a pedestal and covering them with victim cards, but not Palestine cuz clearly they're monsters.

   I also believe that the 'voluntary' migration here is just part of the genocide process, I don't see how nobody could see this pattern. Everyone failing the common sense test here, because when a country bombs the hell out of properties, buildings and other social infrastructures get damaged which leave the citizens more limited places to live or take shelter, I mean targeting social infrastructures like this is considered a war crime isn't it?

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Most of the people still hanging around this thread are pretty unreasonable and irredeemably biased anyway. You can see the eagerness for denial and jumping to conclusions.

That describes you more than anyone else here. You constantly say dehumanizing language of Palestinians calling them savage and were talking about how you’re “proud to be a Jew” basically admitting your analysis is just ethnic and nationalistic, not actually based on an even handed logic. Example, you said the poor living standards in Gaza was due to culture, but when I posted multiple sources clearly showing the damaging effects of the blockade you just dismissed it all with 0 evidence or even an argument. You calling anyone else biased is massive projection.

Edited January 3 by Raze

[danniel]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

That describes you more than anyone else here. You constantly say dehumanizing language of Palestinians calling them savage and were talking about how you’re “proud to be a Jew” basically admitting your analysis is just ethnic and nationalistic, not actually based on an even handed logic.

This is the end game isn't is? In a video of Leo he said something like, "telling a Muslim that Hindu spirituality knowledge is far more developed than it is in Islam and he will label it is voice of devil and deny it" so basically, him saying all that is similar to this and it is like that for me or anyone really.

They are Israelis so any harm on the image of their country or saying that their government is committing genocide, will undermine their reality, henceforth,they defend and justify all these events I believe children are being killed is a disastrous thing  and around 9000+ children have died, so i dislike their reality where this detail is not much important when it is Palestinian kids who are being killed

 

[Majed]

 

[Ramanujan]

@Danioover9000

22 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Ramanujan

   To be fair to the European colonization and settlers, there was a lot of good that came from the colonization Era, for example when the Spaniards and conquistadors set foot on south America, and encountered the Aztec empire, key word EMPIRE and not tribe, which practices some forms of cannibalism and human sacrifice of ripping open the chest of defeated tribal warriors while they're alive, the Spanish colonists put a stop to those barbaric practices, and even the native tribes in that region, and no the Spanish there weren't just being brutal but they were diplomatic, but they didn't have to be too diplomatic because the losing tribes in that region offered to make a coalition against the Aztec Empire, and thanks to them over throwing the Aztec empire peace was restored, and no more barbaric practices of cannibalism and human sacrifices were continued. Also, before and during the European colonization GB is the first Empire to have a strong anti slavery policy as an altruistic principle, and they were the first, not the USA or others, to pursue an anti slavery policy.  

History writtern by winners is always full of shit

 

Europeans killed 90% of native americans through virus

Trans Atlantic slave trade defeats every other barbaric acts anyone has ever committed

 

They are trying to do the same to palasetine. The people living in israel now migrated from ukrian to israel. 80% of isrel citizens migrated from europe to isreal

 

 

It is all settler colonialism. Thanks to Internet , random nobody like me could get educated on it

[zazen]

@Danioover9000 Makes sense. The notion that we can't reasonably guess other people's motivations because they are too obscure is unreasonable. When we observe recurring patterns of behaviour and listen to people articulate their worldviews candidly on popular media channels its easy to put things together. 

People will say such and such statements don't reflect the policy of the Israeli government but their leadership publicly contradict these claim with increasing boldness and arrogance.

Edited January 3 by zazen

[zazen]

It started as a settler colony that later became a nation. The first bank was called the Jewish Colonial Trust. 

Edited January 3 by zazen

[zazen]

Excuse the propagandic captions, titles and links but sometimes pictures say more than words.
 

Interesting short video : 

‘But Hamas started the war on October 7th’ - meanwhile it was the deadliest year before October 7th for Palestinians in West Bank with increasing settlement expansion, restraints and no justice for settler thuggish behaviour.

Why can they get away with this? IDF state backed complicity.

Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Chris Hedges wrote in “A Gaza Diary” on how he had been in war zones and witnessed atrocities before but never seen soldiers barking out obscene insults to lure Palestinian children within range of their gun sights to sport shoot at for fun which he witnessed several times.

Get why the world is condemning the Israeli state now? Critique and anger isn’t directed at normal Israeli’s necessarily nor is it anti-Semitic. It’s the actions of the state and the domestic propaganda that normalises such things.

[Danioover9000]

@Ramanujan

1 hour ago, Ramanujan said:

@Danioover9000

History writtern by winners is always full of shit

 

Europeans killed 90% of native americans through virus

Trans Atlantic slave trade defeats every other barbaric acts anyone has ever committed

 

They are trying to do the same to palasetine. The people living in israel now migrated from ukrian to israel. 80% of isrel citizens migrated from europe to isreal

 

 

It is all settler colonialism. Thanks to Internet , random nobody like me could get educated on it

   Some history written by winners is full of shit, but also full of truths. History is complicated and not just right or wrong.

   Europeans killing 90% of native Americans via virus is no fault of their own, as the historical context shows their understanding of disease spreads and viruses were limited compared to modern times. If you want to blame them with this specific point, then for moral consistency also blame the Mongolian empire for spreading the black plague via the silk road westwards, although key difference between Mongolia and European settlers is that Mongolia somewhat intended to spread the black death there, whereas the European settlers, the GB, Italians, Spanish, French, German settlers, wanted to go to new lands to settle away from their own native lands that they struggled with far more.

   Because Trans Atlantic slave trade was universal and an industry business at that time, and beforehand human slavery was also practiced by the Asian culture, the Arabians in the middle east, the Greeks/Romans and ancient world, and EVEN THE AFRICAN CULTURES. In fact when Europeans eventually were involved in the trans Atlantic slave trade, the reason why it took off quickly was because the kingdoms and monarchs in Africa were already enslaving other losing African tribes and selling them to Arabians and to Europeans. Also, I will keep on emphasizing this, GB WAS THE ONLY COUNTRY AT THIS TIME TO HAVE ANTI SLAVERY POLICIES. GB was the only country to be warring against the slave trade in Africa and other parts of the world, and imposed heavy economic sanctions against countries that practice the slave trade, and even fought sea battles against pirates that are involved in the human slave trade.

   That's for historical context, now we look at the present which is different from that historical context as I have stated covers other cultures, again like how the Spanish settlers dealt with the Aztec empire's human sacrifice rituals and cannibalism of other smaller tribes in that region that's a different context showing some good from European colonialism. Now back to present, you can say that Israel now is part a settler colonialism and expanding onto Palestinian lands, but the more greater part is that Israel is being lead by Zionists with an alt right ideology and nationalism/patriotism that wants more land and for Israel to expand more.

Edited January 3 by Danioover9000

[kenway]

Reminder.

[Nivsch]

Torturing thousands of Israelis for 30 years and then makes himslef innocent by manipulative tactics ended up even further increased pressure on Israel, hamas brought on himself the explosion of Israel on him and holds almost all the responsibility to Gaza's situation.

Edited January 3 by Nivsch

[kenway]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Torturing thousands of Israelis for 30 years and then makes himslef innocent by manipulative tactics ended up even further increased pressure on Israel, hamas brought on himself the explosion of Israel on him and holds almost all the responsibility to Gaza's situation.

 

8000 children.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch @kenway

20 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Torturing thousands of Israelis for 30 years and then makes himslef innocent by manipulative tactics ended up even further increased pressure on Israel, hamas brought on himself the explosion of Israel on him and holds almost all the responsibility to Gaza's situation.

 

13 minutes ago, kenway said:

 

8000 children.

   I think you both would get along in a coffee shop if you both weren't this bi9ased and ideological.

[kenway]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nivsch @kenway

 

   I think you both would get along in a coffee shop if you both weren't this bi9ased and ideological.

 

I'm biased and ideological?

[Danioover9000]

@kenway

2 minutes ago, kenway said:

 

I'm biased and ideological?

   Everyone is at varying degrees, otherwise you'd no longer be you.

[kenway]

5 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@kenway

   Everyone is at varying degrees, otherwise you'd no longer be you.

 

I'm biased towards unity. It's the other ones that are the problem. 

[Danioover9000]

@kenway

Just now, kenway said:

 

I'm biased towards unity. It's the other ones that are the problem. 

True. 😁

[zazen]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/france-germany-slam-far-right-ministers-calls-for-voluntary-emigration-of-gazans/amp/

French FM: “We condemn the statements of Israeli Ministers Smotrich and Ben Gvir, which call for the emigration of Gaza residents. The Israeli government does not have the right to decide where the Palestinians should live on their land.”

German FM: “We reject in the strongest terms the unhelpful statements of Israeli government ministers regarding the displacement of the population of Gaza. The Palestinians should not be expelled from Gaza, nor should the area of the Strip be reduced.”

 

@Danioover9000 Interesting clip to analyse the body language for. Regarding the Beirut assassination .

Edited January 3 by zazen