New War In Israel / Gaza

[Minini]

26 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

It's not an exaggeration at all to equate Hamas with Nazis, they want to genocide Jews and committed ISIS-like atrocities against Israeli families, young women and girls. They are basically the Arab Nazis. 

This point alone skews your whole view of this situation. Your views are generally just too innocent, naive and idealistic for this harsh reality. 

You're completely dismissing the context of this whole thing. Nazi motivation comes from supremacy and egotism, while Hamas motivation comes from resistance to occupation..  

Violent supremacy should be dealt with violent response (war) to put everyone back in their place. That is when a war could be valid response. 

However, in the case of Hamas, radicalized victims should not be met with more violence because no matter what you do, they will still think you're the enemy and they will still think they are the victim. This victimization will get passed on from generation to generation until there is an acknowledgment. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Minini

[kenway]

 

20 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Your views are generally just too innocent, naive and idealistic for this harsh reality. 

It's actually the other way around.

You wouldn't say such things or hold such viewpoints if you knew for certain that you would reincarnate as Palestinian.

If you had to experience the life of every Palestinian from birth to death, your moral wisdom would be quasi-Messianic, to the extent you wouldn't want to hurt a fly.

You'd see the truth for how it really is.

 

[Vrubel]

36 minutes ago, Minini said:

radicalized victims should not be met with more violence

Oh bohoo, those poor Isis Nazis. They should be left alone and do as many 7/10's as they wish. That will teach those oppressive white colonial Jews who dare to build a successful country in their own homeland after 2000 years of persecution. 
 

33 minutes ago, kenway said:

You wouldn't say such things or hold such viewpoints if you knew for certain that you would reincarnate as Palestinian.

Look at 4K street walk videos of how Gaza looked like before the war and compare Palestine with neighboring Arab countries. Not everything is Israel's fault. Just look at how the people in Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Syria are struggling without a Jew insight.

If the Palestinians built something great in Gaza, like a peaceful, educated and wealthy society they would have been an inspiration to the world and Jews would have been much more open to even a one-state solution. But the reality is that the Jews don't even have enough trust for a two-state solution. Though in my opinion, that's still the best solution but will require some serious creativity. 
 

33 minutes ago, kenway said:

If you had to experience the life of every Palestinian from birth to death, your moral wisdom would be quasi-Messianic, to the extent you wouldn't want to hurt a fly.

You'd see the truth for how it really is.

I will also reincarnate as a Nazi, so Nazis should be left alone.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Vrubel

[Minini]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Oh bohoo, those poor Isis Nazis. They should be left alone and do as many 7/10's as they wish. That will teach those oppressive white colonial Jews who dare to build a successful country in their own homeland after 2000 years of persecution.
 

well done responding with a strawman ... sure their homeland after 2000 years, shall we all go invade Africa? 

 Looks like you have been downplaying most opponent views here calling them naive and you're the smart one, so no point in responding to you anymore. 

 

 

[Devin]

1 minute ago, Minini said:

well done responding with a strawman ... sure their homeland after 2000 years, shall we all go invade Africa? 

 Looks like you have been downplaying most opponent views here calling them naive and you're the smart one, so no point in responding to you anymore. 

 

 

It's not even their(European Jews) homeland. That's like me taking on an old defunct East Asian religion and claiming Hong Kong for my cult.

[Raze]

 

[Raze]

20 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Oh bohoo, those poor Isis Nazis. They should be left alone and do as many 7/10's as they wish. That will teach those oppressive white colonial Jews who dare to build a successful country in their own homeland after 2000 years of persecution. 
 

Look at 4K street walk videos of how Gaza looked like before the war and compare Palestine with neighboring Arab countries. Not everything is Israel's fault. Just look at how the people in Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Syria are struggling without a Jew insight.

If the Palestinians built something great in Gaza, like a peaceful, educated and wealthy society they would have been an inspiration to the world and Jews would have been much more open to even a one-state solution. But the reality is that the Jews don't even have enough trust for a two-state solution. Though in my opinion, that's still the best solution but will require some serious creativity. 
 

I will also reincarnate as a Nazi, so Nazis should be left alone.

 

Amazing how you think Palestinians are an inferior race, Jews are superior and therefore exempt from morality, and Israel is justified in ethnic cleansing for this reason, and somehow everyone else is the nazi. 

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Despite everything, Netanyahu/Israel's government is a reasonable state actor bound to certain geopolitical realities.   

They have killed 2 times more civilians in 3 months from a population of 2.2 milion than Putin did in Ukraine with a population of 30 something milion in 2 years
If Putin is so bad how come BiBi has killed like 30 times more civilians per capita. Use common sense please.

If you compare the actual civilian death toll per capita the evil dictator Putin is a saint in comparison.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

13 minutes ago, Raze said:

Amazing how you think Palestinians are an inferior race, Jews are superior and therefore exempt from morality, and Israel is justified in ethnic cleansing for this reason, and somehow everyone else is the nazi. 

@Raze I never said Jews are superior to anyone but there are cultural and societal differences that are worth noting. It's a shame that Israel has such a hard-right government. But then again Hamas doesn't give a shit what kind of government Israel has. Also before the war Israelis were consistently and massively protesting their government. 

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

People didn't call for a ceasefire while the Allies were advancing on Berlin. Even though Germans suffered much worse than Gazans. I used to be critical of the Allied bombing of German cities but I also realized that in the heat and tension of the war, you'll do everything to overpower the enemy and ultimately it was not the Allies that started the war

Because the Nazis razed Europe to the ground and killed close to 20 milion civilians for no reason. They were not oppressed by the Slavs yet they invaded and tried to wipe them out due to their superiority complex. 
Hamas are fighting back Israeli theft and murder which they themselves started by illegally taking their land and putting them in a big air prison. And Hamas death toll civilian wise is super low. Like 600 or something max. Compare that with Nazis 15 something million.

Idk why the world lost its shit over 500 dead civilian Jews honestly. 

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

never said Jews are superior to anyone but there are cultural and societal differences that are worth noting

1 dead Jew is equal to 1 dead Palestinian or Nigerian or anything else.

If you think otherwise that makes you a Nazi

[hundreth]

48 minutes ago, Devin said:

It's not even their(European Jews) homeland. That's like me taking on an old defunct East Asian religion and claiming Hong Kong for my cult.

As a Mizrahi (middle eastern) Jew, this is wrong as well. Ashkenazi Jews have historic ties to Israel just the same. This has been proven through genetic testing in recent times.

[Devin]

27 minutes ago, hundreth said:

As a Mizrahi (middle eastern) Jew, this is wrong as well. Ashkenazi Jews have historic ties to Israel just the same. This has been proven through genetic testing in recent times.

The genetic testing traces back to only one middle eastern ancestor. Regardless, you can't call everywhere your ancestors lived your homeland, if that was the case then it's the Palestinians homeland as well.

Mizrahi does not mean Middle Eastern either, Mizrahi includes as far as India and Chechnya.

1878 census has 86% Muslim, 9%Christian in Palestine

Edited December 30, 2023 by Devin

[hundreth]

Just now, Devin said:

The genetic testing traces back to only one middle eastern ancestor.

What are you talking about? You can see through genetic testing a clear lineage to biblical Israel.

[Devin]

9 minutes ago, hundreth said:

What are you talking about? You can see through genetic testing a clear lineage to biblical Israel.

 

https://www.science.org/content/article/meeting-ancestors-history-ashkenazi-jews-revealed-medieval-dna

"has roots in a band of no more than a few hundred who survived a population bottleneck in Europe more than 1000 years ago."

"was identical in one-third of the people in the excavated plot, evidence that they all descended from a single woman who probably lived 500 to 1000 years earlier."

[hundreth]

20 minutes ago, Devin said:

 

https://www.science.org/content/article/meeting-ancestors-history-ashkenazi-jews-revealed-medieval-dna

"has roots in a band of no more than a few hundred who survived a population bottleneck in Europe more than 1000 years ago."

"was identical in one-third of the people in the excavated plot, evidence that they all descended from a single woman who probably lived 500 to 1000 years earlier."

Do you know what those words mean? They don't mean what you say they mean. Science literacy might help here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

Here is a good resource which gives a good high level overview.

Suffice to say, there's ample evidence.

Quote

The team, which studied mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) passed on solely by mothers to their children, found evidence of shared maternal ancestry of Ashkenazi and non–Ashkenazi Jews, a finding showing a shared ancestral pool that is consistent with previous studies that were based on the Y chromosome. This evidence pointed to a similar pattern of shared paternal ancestry of Jewish populations around the world originating in the Middle East. They concluded that the four founding types of mtDNA—likely to be of Middle Eastern origin—underwent a major overall expansion in Europe over the last thousand years.

The “four founding mothers,” he added, “are from lineages that originate long before the launching of the Jewish people some 3400 years ago. They probably came from a large Middle Eastern gene pool.

“As consistent with the Bible, in which the founding Jews were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and his sons, and the matriarchs were ‘imported’ from non–Jewish peoples and then converted, the haplotypes of contemporary Jewish men are much less varied.”

Geneticists such as David Goldstein, formerly of University College London and now of Duke University in the United States, have argued that the Ashkenazi communities of central and northern Europe were established by Jewish men who migrated from the Middle East, perhaps as traders, and married women from local populations who converted to Judaism.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by hundreth

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It's not an exaggeration at all to equate Hamas with Nazis, they want to genocide Jews and committed ISIS-like atrocities against Israeli families, young women and girls. They are basically the Arab Nazis. 

This point alone skews your whole view of this situation. Your views are generally just too innocent, naive and idealistic for this harsh reality. 

Nice one straw-manning a single sentence out of paragraphs written in good faith to dismiss and deflect responding to any other points.

Context matters. There’s a difference between Nazis who wanted to universally exterminate Jews from the planet and imperially dominate a entire continent and beyond, as opposed to Hamas who want to liberate Palestinians and seek justice though yes, through unjust means by deploying terrorist tactics - and who’s territorial aspirations are isolated and limited to their land and in defence of it - not expansionist oriented which infringes on other peoples rights or lands.

There’s a reason the world came together to defeat the Nazi’s but in this situation the world votes against and condemns the war except very few. The fact that Israel is backed by a global power, has one of the most advanced militaries in the region and possibly nuclear yet still insists it needs to establish detterance capacity as if what it already has isn’t enough - yet it still gets resisted against and attacked should tell that force doesn’t work unless it totally subjugates, cleanses or genocides the other side which risks it losing its last remaining major ally being the US.

US domestic support for Israel by the polls is positive mostly in older generations / boomers and the opposite in younger generations including Jews who are the most vocal and organised in protest. Once they come to power in the next decades Israel will find itself on shakey ground at the same time its domestic population becomes more far right due to settlers having the highest birth rate ( currently 13% of the population vs projected 30%+ by 2050 ). Israel and its biggest ally are on divergent paths in sentiment and vision for how a modern day Israel should look which if it continues on its current path will lead to it being left lonely in a neighbourhood it can’t afford to be lonely in. 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Hamas are fighting back Israeli theft and murder which they themselves started by illegally taking their land and putting them in a big air prison. And Hamas death toll civilian wise is super low. Like 600 or something max. Compare that with Nazis 15 something million.

hamas is projecting out his original disorder that would be expressed anyway, and got triggered and worse after Israel has established.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

hamas is projecting out his original disorder that would be expressed anyway, and got triggered and worse after Israel has established.

Has hamas ever harmed any Jews outside of historical Palestine?

Why did Hamas’s founder say the organization was founded not to fight Jews but to fight occupiers? 
 

Would Hamas have been founded and gotten popularity if Israel wasn’t committing so much violence towards Palestinians? Notice how their popularity grew after every military action.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Raze

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Raze I never said Jews are superior to anyone but there are cultural and societal differences that are worth noting. It's a shame that Israel has such a hard-right government. But then again Hamas doesn't give a shit what kind of government Israel has. Also before the war Israelis were consistently and massively protesting their government. 

Israeli’s are protesting because Netanyahu is corrupt. When it comes to Palestine they actually feel he’s too moderate.

Even if Jews have a better culture, that doesn’t give them the right to slaughter Palestinians and take their land. 
 

If you’re still suggesting the poor quality in life in Gaza is because of Palestinian culture and not Israel, that is so laughable and delusional I do not know what to say. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Raze