New War In Israel / Gaza

[hundreth]

16 minutes ago, kenway said:

All that remains is by what mechanism Netanyahu (et al) can be delivered to face trial for such crimes (i.e the Hague). If that is not possible, then the United Nations is clearly not fit for purpose and we will need a massive reboot of the entire concept of International Law, and in particular, it's policing.

If that is not achieved, then everything will get very messy for everybody.

Has any world leader been convicted for war crimes in modern times? Netanyahu is a boy scout compared to some of the psychos walking this earth and leading nations in recent times. 

But of course, everything with Israel will be amplified.

[kenway]

@Nivsch

You ask whether there are better ways to annihilate this terror organisation. I would argue that anything is better than a civilian genocide.

It's like going to the doctor for a headache only for the doctor to repeatedly hit you over the head with a hammer.... and for him to then ask: "You have a better way?"

I don't know how to destroy Hamas. But my suspicion is that the Israeli far-right benefit from Hamas' existence more than they suffer from it. There is a curious dimension to both Hamas' history, and indeed the Oct 7th attacks, that deserve proper investigation, and I wouldn't exclude that from any strategy.

[kenway]

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Has any world leader been convicted for war crimes in modern times?

How are you defining modern times? Nuremberg, Milosovic, Saddam Hussein all occured within the past 100 years.

I understand your point though.

9 minutes ago, hundreth said:

But of course, everything with Israel will be amplified.

That's because many people in the West regard Israel as a fellow Western country, and therefore should be held to the same standards as any other Western country. Don't forget millions of Europeans and Americans protested against their own governments in regard to many many conflicts, not least Vietnam and Iraq. 

Also... occupation, ethnic nationalism and genocide tends to piss a lot of people off.

[zazen]

@Nivsch

People don’t go around saying they openly want to kill unless their psychopaths.

A certain line of logic demands the most concrete black and white definition of words to be applied. Like saying Palestinians aren’t occupied because Israel left Gaza but they control majority of their life or like Israel saying they want Gazans to ‘voluntarily’ move out as if they have no responsibility in displacing them by making the place unliveable.

The same reasoning is used to say the nakba was mostly a ‘voluntary’ exodus - like military groups massacring Palestinians wasn’t the catalyst that spread enough fear in them to leave. As if some Palestinians wanted a change of scenery to go from the beach to the hills and vice versa and just move around for the sake of it.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen You are free to think whatever you want.

I can cherry pick five cases of murder everyday in Canada and flood the forum with them and you will be sure that canada is a medieval place.

Your critisism is not really fair and decent becasue you take isolated cases and project them on Israel as allegedly this is the real character of Israel, which is far from the truth as west is far from the east.

when pretending to take extreme cases and from them critisize an entire country, the critisim must be taken in a proper proportions and relative to realistic outcomes in a western world average context. Otherwise the critism will be misleading and hypocrite.

[StarStruck]

How credible will Jews be when they commemorate the Jewish holocaust every year when they are committing a Palestinian holocaust as we speak. Israel has opened pandora's box. 

[Nivsch]

The Positive Link Tree 🌲 🌅 😃

some notes:

1. This link tree will be relatively short and will apear in an only one concentrated message per day or per couple of days, to not flood the thread,

2. This is NOT aimed to do an IDF propaganda. idf does make mistakes of course also in Gaza, and have to learn from them and develop himself.

3. However, sometimes an unjust skewed picture that is built from a cherry picking strategy has to be balanced out by a counter picture, even if you can claim it is also cherry picked.

4. I will try to not only show IDF goods here but also and even more than that, to show an authentic picture as much as I can of our society.

5. There is no desire to push an agenda to anybody here, but just to balance out what I think and feel as quite unjust and distorted picture being created here and to let everybody to judge the situation by themselves from a more balanced and stable position 🙂

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1701708399-survey-shows-almost-half-of-arab-israelis-support-idf-response-to-hamas-in-gaza

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

8 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

How credible will Jews be when they commemorate the Jewish holocaust every year when they are committing a Palestinian holocaust as we speak. Israel has opened pandora's box. 

Yeah this "holocaust" speak has become very fashionable. Outsiders like to mental masturbate to Jews committing a "holocaust" but we know even at our worst it's extremely different. 

[StarStruck]

7 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Yeah this "holocaust" speak has become very fashionable. Outsiders like to mental masturbate to Jews committing a "holocaust" but we know even at our worst it's extremely different. 

You lost all credibility bro. Just wait and see. 

[kenway]

[Raze]

 

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

You can suggest better ways to annihilate this terror organization if you have

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0fz_MxOZET/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==
Here you go

Only do this, no 2000 paund bombs, no dumb bombs and no cruise missles.

Just do this type of strikes.

This is how you humanely take out people hiding amongst civilians 

[Happy Lizard]

42 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0fz_MxOZET/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==
Here you go

Only do this, no 2000 paund bombs, no dumb bombs and no cruise missles.

Just do this type of strikes.

This is how you humanely take out people hiding amongst civilians 

I don’t think anyone with a functional moral campus or a critical rational mind cant see how leveling down a city for the purposes of killing a relatively small number of terrorist while massacring a population is not vengeful dishonorable or defendable. 
This is sick is what it is.

there was a debate in the beginning of this thread and this war that Israel is on a higher level as a developed as country therefore it can be trusted to carry this war. “They would have nuked Gaza if they were not” yet dropping a nuclear weapon is just a means to an end, it doesn’t matter if the damage happens over months or over night if its in equal level. 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Happy Lizard

[Vrubel]

@Happy Lizard You can't apply traditional Western ideas of morality to a conflict such as this. Hamas (and by extension all the Palestinians who support them) do not even remotely play by the same rules.

[Happy Lizard]

@Vrubel Hamas are terrorists thats my stance. We can see that form a far yet for the people on the ground, how do you know that they are not under a propaganda? Have you seen any documentaries on north Korea ? These people makes you sad. 
 

You are trying to wake me out of western morality, but have you considered that Gazans are not living under a normal western-like society where you have the freedom and the necessary condition and education to refuse Hamas or choose a position ? In such societies you can not even see any other possibilities. This is not defending their position, nor do I believe that all Palestinians truly and unconditionally support Hamas. And I overall can very clearly see the evil of Hamas, but for the Gazans that don’t … is it just to kill them by the thousands? By this logic any country that is waring with north Korea has the right to wipe out all north Koreans, as there’s supposed very strong evidence that they all unconditionally support their leader.

no sane, developed and self restricted government should carry out a massacre like this. 

[Vrubel]

@Happy Lizard If you look at history, radicalized armies/governments/populations were always dealt with with a heavy hand. Just think of Dresden or Hiroshima. The Korean War is also a good example. However, it failed because of Chinese intervention and communists taking over in the North. Can you imagine if America fully won that war and all of Korea was free and wealthy like South Korea. 

To be honest I don't know if Palestinians can be compared to Germans, Japanese or Koreans because they have their own unique situation and a level of development far below the aforementioned groups. Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests.   

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel You take out Hamas the way I showed you above.

Your logic is basically saying that in order for Palestinians to reform you need to kill tons of innocent people unecessary.

By that logic lets also wipe out Israel since they are also toxic radicals right now in power.

Retarted logic

Most people dying in Gaza are innocent and yet you defend their killings. I expected more humanity from this forum

Edited December 30, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Your logic is basically saying that in order for Palestinians to reform you need to kill tons of innocent people unecessary.

Not to reform but to remove Hamas from power. I don't know how effective a denazification-like process in Gaza will be given their situation and level of development. Ideally, they will clean up their education system putting the focus on building up Gaza instead of destroying Israel. But on the other hand, Israel will never trust Gazans to work in Israel again or make use of their hospitals so their economic, social, and political situation will remain volatile.
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

By that logic lets also wipe out Israel since they are also toxic radicals right now in power.

These are two entirely different dimensions of radical. Despite everything, Netanyahu/Israel's government is a reasonable state actor bound to certain geopolitical realities.   
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Retarted logic

The logic of war: You overpower your enemy with the force of violence. If you don't want the consequences of war, don't start one. If Hamas surrenders today this war will be over immediately. But they don't, so they need to get overpowered. 
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Most people dying in Gaza are innocent and yet you defend their killings. I expected more humanity from this forum

Copy-paste* Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests.   

People didn't call for a ceasefire while the Allies were advancing on Berlin. Even though Germans suffered much worse than Gazans. I used to be critical of the Allied bombing of German cities but I also realized that in the heat and tension of the war, you'll do everything to overpower the enemy and ultimately it was not the Allies that started the war.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Happy Lizard If you look at history, radicalized armies/governments/populations were always dealt with with a heavy hand. Just think of Dresden or Hiroshima. The Korean War is also a good example. However, it failed because of Chinese intervention and communists taking over in the North. Can you imagine if America fully won that war and all of Korea was free and wealthy like South Korea. 

To be honest I don't know if Palestinians can be compared to Germans, Japanese or Koreans because they have their own unique situation and a level of development far below the aforementioned groups. Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests.   

That’s if we look at history, which is history. What happened after those heavy handed approaches in which atrocities happened? New institutions and standards were set to prevent them again. What would also be good to look at in history is what has the response been to bombing campaigns against terrorism. Has the war on terror for 20 years worked? A good article on that: https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/its-impossible-to-bomb-a-population-into-submission-and-obedience-ed33ec9447aa

What if Britian dealt with the IRA the way Israel is dealing with Hamas today? What if this war doesn’t make Israel any safer? Most sane people want Israel to be safe alongside Palestinians and to live with dignity and recognition. Ignore the extremes on both sides calling for the end of each other - that’s unrealistic and naive. It’s exaggerated when the Palestinian side equivocates Israel’s actions to the holocaust as is the Israeli side equivocating Hamas with Nazi/ISIS. 

Israel cant use the horrors of the Holocaust by weaponising and abusing the sympathy and grace of the world to commit present day atrocities or deny / distort reality. Genocide isn’t a event but a process, and a subset of genocide by the UN definition is ‘Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part’. Raz Segal who is a Israeli scholar on the Holocaust and genocide calls it as such.

Intent and incitement have been shown in varying statements from people who actually matter in the equation which are the prime minister, president and defence minister. I don’t even have to quote Ben Gvir, Smotrich or extremist settlers.

Bibi Netenyahu : invoking Almalek 

Isaac Herzog : “it is a entire nation out there that is responsible”

Yoav Gallant : “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed.”

A relevant post from two pages back: 

22 hours ago, zazen said:

It’s entirely possible that attempting to bomb ‘terrorism’ out of existence doesn’t always work and what we think is in our best interest (defence via war) isn’t. When Germany and Britain were bombing each other both populations rallied together for more resilience and resistance against it. As can be seen by the increased popularity in polls for Hamas today and what in Britain was known as the ‘Blitz spirit’ - a term to symbolise their resolve, resilience and national unity in the face of hardship caused by the Nazi’s blitz bombing campaign. If Israel say they don’t want a Palestinian state it’s ironic that bombing them only nationalises them further.

One can say ‘but look, the Nazi’s were defeated and there is peace now’ sure - but at what expense and what level of international acceptance at the time. Post WW2 institutions and foundational documents were created (UN, Geneva convention and universal declaration of human rights) to promote peace and equality, protect and sanctify life and persecute and prevent further war crimes and atrocities. The standard of what is acceptable has shifted. Which is why any explicit genocidal intent has to be discreet, subtle and slowly go under the radar.

Another point is the difference between Nazi’s/ISIS and Hamas that Israeli apologists knowingly equate to justify and gain support from the world. Nazi and ISIS are thrown in to label and link Hamas to toxic expansionist genocidal ideologies and unjust causes the world came together to fight. The former are globalist death cults whilst the latter a localised defensive resistance movement that yes - do employ terrorist tactics that should be persecuted equally as any other group. This isn’t a defense of Hamas, just analysis of the situation - analysis isn’t approval.

Something to understand about grassroots movements such as resistance on a homeland is that you can’t keep ‘mowing or cutting the grass’ to get rid of it - it needs to be uprooted from the soil. The grass (people) will keep on growing (resisting) unless totally defeated in morale through subjugation (harder for people of faith) or uprooted from their land (ethnically cleansed or genocided). Even if the motive isn’t to genocide but is only to ethnically cleanse/displace people - the inability to do so can out of frustration and desperation lead to genocide. Maybe in explicit ways (targeted killing) or indirect ways (make their land unliveable by systemic destruction - which has been stated).

At its best Israel may not be targeting civilians but they don’t care enough not to harm them in targeting Hamas - at its worst, Hamas aren’t the target but the excuse to cleanse and claim land Zionism has felt entitled to and aspired to - both in the name of ‘defence’ - a term used as a verbal shield for such actions which only the spear of good conscience and intelligence can penetrate.

 

[Vrubel]

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

It’s exaggerated when the Palestinian side equivocates Israel’s actions to the holocaust as is the Israeli side equivocating Hamas with Nazi/ISIS. 

It's not an exaggeration at all to equate Hamas with Nazis, they want to genocide Jews and committed ISIS-like atrocities against Israeli families, young women and girls. They are basically the Arab Nazis. 

This point alone skews your whole view of this situation. Your views are generally just too innocent, naive and idealistic for this harsh reality.