New War In Israel / Gaza

[hundreth]

Just now, Devin said:

War is not necessary, they can go back to Europe without altercation.

So by you bringing Iran into the equation, I'm guessing you meant Iran will pack their bags and lay out a red carpet for them?

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html

here you go

[Devin]

Just now, hundreth said:

So by you bringing Iran into the equation, I'm guessing you meant Iran will pack their bags and lay out a red carpet for them?

The only reason Europeans stay in Israel is because Iran is held in check by the West. Without the threat of the West to Iran, Israelis would go back to Europe out of pure common sense.

[Karmadhi]

15 minutes ago, hundreth said:

one of the only nations in the region with nuclear capabilities

How come Israeli is allowed illegally to have nukes but when Iran tries to get them the world looses its shit and sanctions them to death?

Double standards again

If Israel is allowed to have nukes then so should Iran imo

[_Archangel_]

@hundreth i rewatched a peace and i realized was to harsh.
Nontheless, Destiny thinks that if palestinians would suddenly become non belligerant than this would be an advancement to peace that would benefit them, to wich i don't really agree to. And the idea that palestinian civilian should reject hamas and embrace moderation may be good on paper but impractical for multiple reasons.

[hundreth]

Just now, Karmadhi said:

How come Israeli is allowed illegally to have nukes but when Iran tries to get them the world looses its shit and sanctions them to death?

Double standards again

If Israel is allowed to have nukes then so should Iran imo

Because Israel is sane enough not to use them and has not explicitly stated their goal is to remove a nation from this planet.

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, Devin said:

The only reason Europeans stay in Israel is because Iran is held in check by the West. Without the threat of the West to Iran, Israelis would go back to Europe out of pure common sense.

Iran is also held in check by Israel.

[Nivsch]

7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Nivsch https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html

here you go

This is at most a too loose tactic to hit a terror target and you can critisize that but keep in mind there are 10,000s terror targets to attack and not sure if this is really possible to avoid this.

But this is not at all a proof of an intentional attack on civilians. 

hamas uses civilians homes as its regular strategy.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Devin]

Just now, hundreth said:

Iran is also held in check by Israel.

Time may tell a different narrative.

[kenway]

45 minutes ago, hundreth said:

"Hamas is not a state and Israel is legally still the occupying power in Gaza. You don't have the right to self-defence against a territory you occupy."

Statements like these are nothing more than playing semantic games and intellectualization gone too far. 

 

The counter to that would be the legal disposition that the occupier has no right to invoke genocide, whereas the occupied has the right of defense against the occupier.

This isn't my argument, by the way, but one that is frequently made.

It's also worth pointing out that the phrase "Israel has the right to defend itself" is itself something of a semantic game, bordering on the precipice of psychological gaslighting.

In truth, "rights" are somewhat phantomic. If we're talking about the United Nations, Israel stop listening to them a long long time ago.

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch Well you will not be convinced until Israel says it themselves which it will never happen so I will stop this conversation.

Until you start trusting international organizations and even western media instead of historical proven liars.

[kenway]

Again, from "Distinction and Loss of Civilian Protection in International Armed Conflicts" (Yoram Dinstein):-

The principle of distinction excludes not only deliberate attacks against civilians, but also indiscriminate attacks, i.e., instances in which the attacker does not target any specific military objective (due either to indifference as to whether the ensuing casualties will be civilians or combatants or, alternatively, to inability to control the effects of the attack). A leading example is the launching by Iraq of Scud missiles against military objectives located in or near residential areas in Israel in 1991, notwithstanding the built-in imprecision of the Scuds which made accuracy in acquiring military objectives virtually impossible (and, in the event, no military objective was struck)."

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by kenway

[zazen]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

They are not.

Unless you have a proof of an intentional killing of cilivlians and you don't have that.

Just from yesterday. Who knows - he could be a comedian or I’m just cherry picking.

How explicit do words and action need to be to establish intent? I can understand war and casualties being a natural part of it but their have been plenty of dehumanising statements from Israel which show that intentional killing could easily be believed to occur.

At its best, Israel may not be targeting civilians but they don’t care enough not to harm them in targeting Hamas - at its worst, Hamas aren’t the target but the excuse for ethnic cleansing and claiming land a big proportion of Israel feel entitled to.

 

[hundreth]

16 minutes ago, kenway said:

The counter to that would be the legal disposition that the occupier has no right to invoke genocide, whereas the occupied has the right of defense against the occupier.

This isn't my argument, by the way, but one that is frequently made.

I wouldn't even disagree with that.

Quote

It's also worth pointing out that the phrase "Israel has the right to defend itself" is itself something of a semantic game, bordering on the precipice of psychological gaslighting.

In truth, "rights" are somewhat phantomic. If we're talking about the United Nations, Israel stop listening to them a long long time ago.

I don't see how. "Israel has the right to defend itself" means it should be able to protect it's citizens. There's nothing especially outrageous about that.

Yeah, Israel has stopped listening and you see a lot of the discourse around the U.N. not condemning the Oct 7 attacks. The language around it matters. 

[Nivsch]

@zazen Criminals there are everywhere. Isolated cases of criminal activity when you have 10,000s soldiers operate there will always occure.

This doesn't prove anything, sorry.

By that logic, Canada is a murderous toxic masculine tyranni because sometimes women are being murdered by their husbands there, just like in everywhere else.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Criminals there are everywhere. Isolated cases of criminal activity when you have 10,000s soldiers operate there will always occure.

This doesn't prove anything, sorry.

By that logic, Canada is a murderous toxic masculine tyranni because sometimes women are being murdered by their husbands there, just like in everywhere else.

As Jews & Israelis we need to be careful. As you say, we have these incidents that don't reflect the greater vision or plan. If we don't do anything to stop this from happening, we're allowing it to happen. And given everything that happened, there's little space for compassion in the current landscape. But we need to be very careful.

[Nivsch]

40 minutes ago, zazen said:

 their have been plenty of dehumanising statements from Israel which show that intentional killing could easily be believed to occur.

I can admit about myself, that my anger about the Gazan's support of hamas and their celebrations after oct 7th made me also think about them differently.

Not to mention that those poor children are poisoned and brainwashed by hamas for the rest of their lives.

Why isn't the world shaken by that?

If your village was under pogrom and your friends were taken to behind the border being held with a gun to their head you would also say nasty things about the other side.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@hundreth I agree with you but the empathy to the other side is reduced to approximately zero when nobody here is willing to understand our side.

[kenway]

A massive aerial bombardment targeting a densely populated area where half of the population consists of children, constitutes a violation of the principles of international humanitarian law. There is no difference between deliberate and indiscriminate.

This includes hospitals, schools, refugee camps, and residential areas.

Therefore, the current Israeli regime is engaged in persistent warcrimes. All that remains is by what mechanism Netanyahu (et al) can be delivered to face trial for such crimes (i.e the Hague). If that is not possible, then the United Nations is clearly not fit for purpose and we will need a massive reboot of the entire concept of International Law, and in particular, it's policing.

If that is not achieved, then everything will get very messy for everybody.

[Nivsch]

@kenway hamas strategy is all about being assimilated between civilians.

You can suggest better ways to annihilate this terror organization if you have.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch