New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Its scary how you pro Israelis conviently ignore all the horrible footage of mistreatment of Palestinians coming out of Gaza daily. 
Imagine back in the day when all the information you had was your local biases newspaper. 
Scary…

When people you care about will be held in Gaza for 80 days with a gun to their head after your village went through a pogrom, then a displacement of Gazans from their homes won't be exactly a top priority of your concerns.

[kenway]

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

When people you care about will be held in Gaza for 80 days with a gun to their head after your village went through a pogrom, then a displacement of Gazans from their homes won't be exactly a top priority of your concerns.

Comments like this are depressing.

People you care about? As opposed to people you don't care about?

I will never understand how the phrase "people you care about" can be used in this manner.

Don't you understand that when you write "people you care about" you are also saying that there are people you don't care about?

You clearly don't understand love, and it's depressing.

 

[zazen]

Some good discussion the last few pages. As Leo has mentioned it can lead to wasted energy when it devolves to outrage and bad faith.
 

Understanding is beneficial up to the point it leads to active change in the right direction in the form of a vote (political power) or a purchase (financial power) - you can vote or finance the wrong things (more war and elite capture). That necessitates making a moral judgement on what is more right or wrong which I think (wrongly perhaps?) is fine - spirituality doesn’t mean resigning our moral conscience because we see all sides to a issue and are above humanity sitting in a lofty place of detached enlightened - pluralism isn’t necessarily neautralism.

Understanding all sides doesn’t mean standing with all of them - and in the case that both seem equally right or valid to the extent of causing a moral quandary - one can understand that both sides need to stand together elsewhere in a new unitive position to improve the situation towards peace and prosperity.

In the past we didn’t have the speed of information transfer we do today, we couldn’t talk to the other side to understand them which affects change in each other, today we can. Though we can still clash or echo chamber ourselves at least the option to step out of it or jailbreak our biases exists more than ever which makes forum discussion valuable.

We can at least understand that the base instincts and incentives to survive trump intelligence and conciousness. That if we can’t engage the warring sides intelligence or conscience we can at least use our intelligence and good conscience which isn’t drowned in emotional, reflexive and instinctual revenge to pull their instincts and incentives in a better direction in the form of political votes and finance. If opinion didn’t matter propaganda wouldn’t be valued or used - if money didn’t matter anti-BDS or boycott laws wouldn’t be put in place.

It’s because the world is more globalised and connected that we can exert more influence. On a political level cutting diplomatic ties, aid, imposing sanctions. On a financial level big and small buying from certain businesses and boycotting others or scrapping trade deals and reorienting supply chains - all have a level of Influence.

Edited December 29, 2023 by zazen

[Minini]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a point to discuss issues to get a deeper understanding of it. But once you got that, then it's time to move on.

6 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

Let go of things you can't control and focus on your life purpose. That's how you will help solve the problems of humankind the best.

I do understand real change starts by everyone focusing on developing his own self, but at the same time we still live in a world that has people and requires our interactions. Why can't someone focus on his own growth, and at the same time speak out against atrocities that are actively happening to hopefully set standards for society on collective level? If someone had family in Gaza right now they would want other people to speak out for them because that's humanity, we might not be able to make solid change in politics, but the least we can do is show support to the side that is heavily disempowered. Imagine facing this all alone and people are watching you while being silent, how would you feel after this? The people living there said it themselves that the global support they're seeing is their only silver lining. 

 

[Nivsch]

@kenway What I understand is that you and most of the people here care about the palestinians point of view much much more than the Isrealis point of view. That is for sure and beyond any doubt.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@kenway I understand that you care about the palestinian's point of view much much more than the Isrealis. That is what I understand for sure. Behind any doubt.

 

Bro what if the real point of view that cares about Israelis is that this war only leads to more future threats, terrorism and anti-semitism?

From a article:

“Did you know that since the United States brought its “war on terror” to Africa, terrorist attacks on that continent have increased by 75,000 percent? That’s right: 75, then three zeros, percent. I learned this neat little stat from a new article by journalist Nick Turse, who also notes that “according to the Pentagon, terrorist attacks in the Sahel region alone have resulted in 9,818 deaths — a 42,500% increase.”

People have been documenting the way attempts to bomb terrorism out of existence actually creates more terrorism for many years. In 2010 Professor Robert A Pape wrote an article for Foreign Policy titled “It’s the Occupation, Stupid” about his study with University of Chicago which found that suicide bombings are the result not of Islamic fundamentalism but of foreign military occupations.

Some notable excerpts:

“More than 95 percent of all suicide attacks are in response to foreign occupation.”

“As the United States has occupied Afghanistan and Iraq, which have a combined population of about 60 million, total suicide attacks worldwide have risen dramatically — from about 300 from 1980 to 2003, to 1,800 from 2004 to 2009.”

“Over 90 percent of suicide attacks worldwide are now anti-American.”

“Each month, there are more suicide terrorists trying to kill Americans and their allies in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other Muslim countries than in all the years before 2001 combined. From 1980 to 2003, there were 343 suicide attacks around the world, and at most 10 percent were anti-American inspired. Since 2004, there have been more than 2,000, over 91 percent against U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other countries.”

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

When people you care about will be held in Gaza for 80 days with a gun to their head after your village went through a pogrom, then a displacement of Gazans from their homes won't be exactly a top priority of your concerns.

Many Palestinians have been held by Israel which may make justice and resistance their top priority.

 

From wiki:

On 11 December 2012, the office of then-Prime Minister Salam Fayyad stated that since 1967, 800,000 Palestinians, or roughly 20% of the total population and 40% of the male population, had been imprisoned by Israel at one point in time. About 100,000 had been held in administrative detention. According to Palestinian estimates, 70% of Palestinian families have had one or more family members sentenced to jail terms in Israeli prisons as a result of activities against the occupation.

From human rights watch:

The majority have never been convicted of a crime, including more than 2,000 of them being held in administrative detention, in which the Israeli military detains a person without charge or trial. Such detention can be renewed indefinitely based on secret information, which the detainee is not allowed to see. Administrative detainees are held on the presumption that they might commit an offense at some point in the future. Israeli authorities have held children, human rights defenders and Palestinian political activists, among others, in administrative detention, often for prolonged periods.

The large number of Palestinian detainees is primarily the result of separate criminal justice systems Israeli authorities maintain in the occupied territory. The nearly 3 million Palestinians who live in the occupied West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem, are ruled by military law and prosecuted in military courts. By contrast, the nearly half a million Israeli settlers in the West Bank are governed under civil and criminal law and tried in Israeli civil courts. Discrimination pervades every aspect of this system.

Under military law, Palestinians can be held for up to eight days before they must see a judge — and then, only a military judge. Yet, under Israeli law, a person has to be brought before a judge within 24 hours of being arrested, which can be extended to 96 hours when authorized in extraordinary cases.

Palestinians can be jailed for participating in a gathering of merely 10 people without a permit on any issue “that could be construed as political,” while settlers can demonstrate without a permit unless the gathering exceeds 50 people, takes place outdoors and involves “political speeches and statements.”

In short, Israeli settlers and Palestinians live in the same territory, but are tried in different courts under different laws with different due process rights and face different sentences for the same offense. The result is a large and growing number of Palestinians imprisoned without basic due process.

While the law of occupation permits administrative detention as a temporary and exceptional measure, Israel’s sweeping use of administrative detention on the Palestinian population, more than a half-century into an occupation with no end in sight, far exceeds what the law authorizes.

Edited December 29, 2023 by zazen

[Devin]

The endless clamouring is the only method of progress for the Pacifists, it's a slow gruelling method but it does create change, possibly lasting change.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Devin

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

then a displacement of Gazans from their homes

@Nivsch They are murdered. Not just displaced

We care about Palestine more because first of all they are the ones dying in mass. 32 kids vs 8000, sorry 8000 takes 161 times more priority from us.

Second, Israel should not have been near Gaza to begin with. They stole so much land compared to the 1947 UN borders so we will care less about the pov of thieves and colonizers 

[zazen]

It’s entirely possible that attempting to bomb ‘terrorism’ out of existence doesn’t always work and what we think is in our best interest (defence via war) isn’t. When Germany and Britain were bombing each other both populations rallied together for more resilience and resistance against it. As can be seen by the increased popularity in polls for Hamas today and what in Britain was known as the ‘Blitz spirit’ - a term to symbolise their resolve, resilience and national unity in the face of hardship caused by the Nazi’s blitz bombing campaign. If Israel say they don’t want a Palestinian state it’s ironic that bombing them only nationalises them further.

One can say ‘but look, the Nazi’s were defeated and there is peace now’ sure - but at what expense and what level of international acceptance at the time. Post WW2 institutions and foundational documents were created (UN, Geneva convention and universal declaration of human rights) to promote peace and equality, protect and sanctify life and persecute and prevent further war crimes and atrocities. The standard of what is acceptable has shifted. Which is why any explicit genocidal intent has to be discreet, subtle and slowly go under the radar.

Another point is the difference between Nazi’s/ISIS and Hamas that Israeli apologists knowingly equate to justify and gain support from the world. Nazi and ISIS are thrown in to label and link Hamas to toxic expansionist genocidal ideologies and unjust causes the world came together to fight. The former are globalist death cults whilst the latter a localised defensive resistance movement that yes - do employ terrorist tactics that should be persecuted equally as any other group. This isn’t a defense of Hamas, just analysis of the situation - analysis isn’t approval.

Something to understand about grassroots movements such as resistance on a homeland is that you can’t keep ‘mowing or cutting the grass’ to get rid of it - it needs to be uprooted from the soil. The grass (people) will keep on growing (resisting) unless totally defeated in morale through subjugation (harder for people of faith) or uprooted from their land (ethnically cleansed or genocided). Even if the motive isn’t to genocide but is only to ethnically cleanse/displace people - the inability to do so can out of frustration and desperation lead to genocide. Maybe in explicit ways (targeted killing) or indirect ways (make their land unliveable by systemic destruction - which has been stated).

At its best Israel may not be targeting civilians but they don’t care enough not to harm them in targeting Hamas - at its worst, Hamas aren’t the target but the excuse to cleanse and claim land Zionism has felt entitled to and aspired to - both in the name of ‘defence’ - a term used as a verbal shield for such actions which only the spear of good conscience and intelligence can penetrate.

Edited December 29, 2023 by zazen

[kenway]

~ Dr Brian Feeney, The Irish News

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/genocide-joe-biden-has-got-the-gaza-crisis-wrong-in-every-way-brian-feeney-PVL4BQU4YZFZ7FLC67S2APUYDU/

 

[hundreth]

24 minutes ago, kenway said:

~ Dr Brian Feeney, The Irish News

https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/genocide-joe-biden-has-got-the-gaza-crisis-wrong-in-every-way-brian-feeney-PVL4BQU4YZFZ7FLC67S2APUYDU/

 

"Hamas is not a state and Israel is legally still the occupying power in Gaza. You don't have the right to self-defence against a territory you occupy."

Statements like these are nothing more than playing semantic games and intellectualization gone too far. Should Israel go on the offensive? No. But of course any nation is going to defend itself and it's citizens from a threat, whether "external" or "internal".

When you suggest Israel should just lay down and die because you've convinced yourself they don't have the moral high ground, you've lost any ability to effect change in the region and your perspective will be ignored by those with power in the region.  

If the United States, France, or even Ireland had a terrorist faction ruling over a subset of it's people, stealing funds, stealing aid, and shooting rockets into neighboring towns, Ireland would shut them down immediately. And that's even if you believe all those territories are internal to Ireland. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by hundreth

[_Archangel_]

@Nivsch War on terrorism (badly managed) doesn't justify the sacrifice of 1000's. expecially when they are the larger part, and the head of the organization are unbotherded outside of gaza.
This will just lead to more radicalization and risentiment among the younger population and will make them new adepts to be used for new attacks to Israel , do you get that?

And as i've said  the history of the last 80 years suggests attack towards palestinians are more deliberate that it seems.

20 hours ago, hundreth said:

In general I think this was a well done conversation. 

@hundreth Indeed, because it showed the plot-holes in both of them.
Cenk is under the illusion that there isn't a significant part of the palesinians that has benn radicalized and full on support Hamas.
Destiny doesn't believe that Palestinians are or have been oppressed, which is crazy.

[Karmadhi]

12 minutes ago, hundreth said:

When you suggest Israel should just lay down and die because you've convinced yourself they don't have the moral high ground, you've lost any ability to effect change in the region and your perspective will be ignored by those with power in the region.  

Going back to 1947 borders and giving up illegally stolen land from the people that welcomed them while Europeans were butchering them would be a good start

[hundreth]

1 minute ago, _Archangel_ said:

 

@hundreth Indeed, because it showed the plot-holes in both of them.
Cenk is under the illusion that there isn't a significant part of the palesinians that has benn radicalized and full on support Hamas.
Destiny doesn't believe that Palestinians are or have been oppressed, which is crazy.

That's not how I interpreted Destiny's remarks. He acknowledges the history and plight of the Palestinians, but unlike most assigns a level of accountability towards them which is unheard of in many leftist circles. He challenges the notion that they have been negotiating for peace in good faith. 

[hundreth]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

Going back to 1947 borders and giving up illegally stolen land from the people that welcomed them while Europeans were butchering them would be a good start

What are 1947 borders? The British Mandate? Should the UK come rule over the lands again? 

Most sane people advocate for 1967 based two state solution, but both sides will need to come to the negotiation table. And it won't be as simple as you say. There will have to be security considerations, land swaps and trust established over time. 

If we want change to happen, we need to be realistic. 

[Devin]

I don't understand how people think any borders resolve this, to me it seems quite obvious that these are two cultures that hate each other and will always kill each other so long as they're in the same region.

Israel should be removed by the other local nations, Iran should not be held back from defending peace.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Devin

[hundreth]

6 minutes ago, Devin said:

I don't understand how people think any borders resolve this, to me it seems quite obvious that these are two cultures that hate each other and will always kill each other so long as they're in striking distance.

Israel should be removed by the other local nations, Iran should not be held back from defending peace.

Appreciate you going mask off.

 

Sure, let's go no holds barred war to eliminate Israel, one of the only nations in the region with nuclear capabilities. I'm sure it will work out and result in peace.

Edited December 29, 2023 by hundreth

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Nivsch They are murdered. Not just displaced.

They are not.

Unless you have a proof of an intentional killing of cilivlians and you don't have that.

[Devin]

10 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Appreciate you going mask off.

 

Sure, let's go no holds barred war to eliminate Israel, one of the only nations in the region with nuclear capabilities. I'm sure it will work out and result in peace.

War is not necessary, they can go back to Europe without altercation.