New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

@Hardkill Bernie Sanders is against ceasefire with Hamas. 

[Hardkill]

11 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Hardkill Bernie Sanders is against ceasefire with Hamas. 

I know, but should he change his mind about it to help the Democratic party win back the young voters and racial minority voters they've already lost? 

Besides, he, Warren, and a number of other establishment Dems in Congress agree that Congress should put certain conditions in aid to Israel instead of just giving it a "blank check". After all, why does Israel really need it?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Hardkill

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Hardkill Bernie Sanders is against ceasefire with Hamas. 

No he isn’t https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-urges-president-biden-to-withdraw-support-for-10-1-billion-in-military-aid-to-israel-and-support-un-efforts-for-a-humanitarian-ceasefire/

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

The left, and even the right frankly, have been predicting this forever. We already settled into a pattern of Israel refuses to budge and offer a path to peace and ending the blockade, hamas attacks usually because of Israeli provocations the media refuses to consider, Israel bombards Gaza. The only difference is Hamas pulled off a much bigger attack. Israel’s government decided it seeks expansion over security and the population completely fell for the demonization, they cannot be reached at this point. The majority of Israeli’s now support Gazans being expelled, they want ethnic cleansing. The left cannot convince them, they can only pressure the US to pressure Israel. 

Right, everything is Israel's fault. It's always because of Israeli provocations. Yada yada. Has nothing to do with rockets being sent over every single day. Nothing to do with tunnels being built into Israel and attacks being planned / orchestrated. This is what I mean. Zero accountability and this is why this is ignored by Israelis.

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That’s only if the ceasefire is all that is done. If efforts are made to actually create a path to a political solution, it may be avoided. Also as I’ll explain later, not having a ceasefire doesn’t lead to a different outcome either. 

How many times has this pattern played out already? Gazans attack, Israel retaliates, ceasefire. When has any path been laid out? Why would this time be any different than any of the others? Netanyahu has no incentive to change anything during a ceasefire. Hamas has no incentive to change anything. The United States has no incentive. Who is going to carve a path forward? At least if Hamas is no longer in power, there is a possibility for change. 

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how exactly do we know when hamas is destroyed?

C'mon, this is simple. Obviously Israel can't destroy the identity or ideology of Hamas. Hamas is effectively destroyed when they no longer have political and military power in the region. If they aren't strong-arming Gazans, something else will take it's place. As you said, it could be good or bad. Hopefully we collectively steer it in the right direction.

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- Israel already rejected a third party or joint occupying force in Gaza. A moderate government is not going to form after so many have been killed, they are being occupied, and they have no path to a political solution because Israel clearly wants to ethnically cleanse them.

If Israel rejected it, this is where pressure should be placed. A peacekeeping force will need to be in the region for some time until tensions die and the opportunity presents itself. You're convinced you know what "Israel" wants. Israel is a diverse nation, things could be different a year from today when Netanyahu may no longer be in power. It's hard to say what will happen. I hope for the best.

I didn't respond to everything you wrote, just trying to focus on where we probably have the most disagreement.

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel When you have killed mostly women and childreen any humane and sane government would realize the way they are conducting the war is flawed and change tactics.

Israel doubles down on it because their goal is to punish all Palestinians because they see all of them responsible.

Apparently 90% civilian death rate is fine for them.

Maybe a change of tactics?

This is not self defense it is ethnic cleansing and collective punishment. Anything else is pure delusion

Funny enough Hamas had a higher soldier death rate than Israel does (400 soldiers out of 1200 total dead)

Let that sink in….

Edited December 29, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Raze]

22 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Right, everything is Israel's fault. It's always because of Israeli provocations. Yada yada. Has nothing to do with rockets being sent over every single day. Nothing to do with tunnels being built into Israel and attacks being planned / orchestrated. This is what I mean. Zero accountability and this is why this is ignored by Israelis.

Again you are strawmanning. What you fail to consider is 1) the US funds the IDF not Hamas, it makes sense to focus on what we ourselves are involved in and 2) Israel is the occupying and blockading force, so yes they hold more blame

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How many times has this pattern played out already? Gazans attack, Israel retaliates, ceasefire. When has any path been laid out? Why would this time be any different than any of the others? Netanyahu has no incentive to change anything during a ceasefire. Hamas has no incentive to change anything. The United States has no incentive. Who is going to carve a path forward? At least if Hamas is no longer in power, there is a possibility for change. 

Why would Hamas no longer being in power create a possibility for change if as you said every other faction isn’t incentivized to change? Lets assume Hamas is replaced by a party that gives up armed resistance, what changes, they already have that in the West Bank with the PLO and they’re seemingly on the verge of getting replaced by a armed resistance faction given their massive unpopularity, its only not happening because of the IDF’s brutal repression.
 

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C'mon, this is simple. Obviously Israel can't destroy the identity or ideology of Hamas. Hamas is effectively destroyed when they no longer have political and military power in the region. If they aren't strong-arming Gazans, something else will take it's place. As you said, it could be good or bad. Hopefully we collectively steer it in the right direction.

No it’s not simple. The reason Oct 7 happened was because Israel thought it took out Hamas’s ability to stage attacks so they loosened guards in the Gazan border.

Hamas being thrown out of power isn’t going to make it any easier to steer things in the right direction. Israel doesn’t want to change directions which is why they refused to deal with Hamas politically which is why Hamas resorts to violence. 

You’re also ignoring the main argument for the cease fire, it is for humanitarian reasons, there are hundreds of thousands of Gaza’s at risk of starvation, they are amputating the limbs off of children without anesthesia. Even putting aside long term political goals, a cease fire even if temporary is the correct option to save tens of thousands of innocent lives. If Israeli’s were the ones being slaughtered no one would say “don’t bother with a cease fire, the fighting will just happen again anyway”.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Raze

[Minini]

@Leo Gura who cares what Israel wants ?! why do you expect everyone to submit to their desires with no resistance? Societies evolve because people start speaking out against injustices and devilry to create a safe environment for everyone. What's naive is following Israel's selfish deluded desires blindly like what the USA is doing now, what they don't know is that they are literally summoning a demon that will sooner or later come to get them after all the injustices they are committing. 

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Minini said:

who cares what Israel wants ?!

Because they are in charge of that area of the world.

The US is not going to stop this war.

[Minini]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because they are in charge of that area of the world.

The US is not going to stop this war.

Okay but at least people have the duty to speak out. We shouldn't normalize devilry and selfishness. Holding so much power shouldn't make one immune to criticism or condemnation. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Minini

[Minini]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

I don't think its a matter of 'wanting' for Israel but a matter of 'needing'.

The only one who wants constant war is Hamas. 

sorry that's pure delusion. Are you one of those people who think this right wing gov desire nothing but peace and love and has no expansionist plans? 

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Minini said:

Okay but at least people have the duty to speak out.

You're mostly just wasting your time. All this online whining doesn't actually solve any of the world's problems.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Minini]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You're mostly just wasting your time. All this online whining doesn't actually solve any of thr world's problems.

Might not solve this problem right now but there has been global shift in the public opinion regarding Palestine because a lot of people decided to speak out. Staying silent and being passive is not good either. 

[Leo Gura]

If all that was required for world peace was online silence and the end of whining, we would never have world peace.

You guys are wasting a lot of your time debating stuff which has zero productive value. That's progressives in a nutshell. All your moral outrage is predictable, robotic, brainless, and useless.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Minini]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If all that was required for world peace was online silence and the end of whining, we would never have world peace.

You guys are wasting a lot of your time debating stuff which has zero productive value. That's progressives in a nutshell. All your moral outrage is predictable, robotic, brainless, and useless.

Then what do you suggest people do if they want to create change? 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Minini said:

Then what do you suggest people do if they want to create change? 

I don't really have an answer.

The Israeli Palestine issue is not gonna be resolved peacefully at this point. Neither side is conscious enough for that.

The best you can do about it is not to waste your own mental energy joining the fight.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Minini]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The Israeli Palestine issue is not gonna be resolved peacefully at this point. Neither side is conscious enough for that.

The problem the violent solution will not solve this conflict either and will only perpetuate more hatred and violence .. We had hope that by creating pressure on the more powerful and conscious side, and with the help of external mediators there could be a chance for peace..  

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The best you can do about it is not to waste your own mental energy joining the fight.

Does that mean you don't think there's a value in the idea of people becoming activists for change?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Minini

[Miguel1]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The best you can do about it is not to waste your own mental energy joining the fight.

This.

Let go of things you can't control and focus on your life purpose. That's how you will help solve the problems of humankind the best.

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If all that was required for world peace was online silence and the end of whining, we would never have world peace.

You guys are wasting a lot of your time debating stuff which has zero productive value. That's progressives in a nutshell. All your moral outrage is predictable, robotic, brainless, and useless.

1. If that was true Israel’s government wouldn’t spend money on online units to correct the record.

2. By that logic the entire online political forum here and everywhere is pointless and everyone should stop talking 

[Hardkill]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't really have an answer.

The Israeli Palestine issue is not gonna be resolved peacefully at this point. Neither side is conscious enough for that.

The best you can do about it is not to waste your own mental energy joining the fight.

Then why is most of the whole world calling for a ceasefire?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

2. By that logic the entire online political forum here and everywhere is pointless and everyone should stop talking 

There is a point to discuss issues to get a deeper understanding of it. But once you got that, then it's time to move on.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Leo Gura