New War In Israel / Gaza

[Raze]

19 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

@Leo Gura as long as Hamas are in power, peace will never happen? Should they not be removed? 

The Israel government is a larger obstacle to peace if we are being honest. Netanyahu openly brags about stopping a two state solution. Prior to Oct 7 Hamas tried to push for political solutions and changed their charter to no longer call for ending Israel. Israel refused to respond to peaceful protests or attempts at political solution because they want to force Gazans to have no option but violence to justify a violent response.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Raze

[Joel3102]

13 minutes ago, Raze said:

The Israel government is a larger obstacle to peace if we are being honest. Netanyahu openly brags about stopping a two state solution. Prior to Oct 7 Hamas tried to push for political solutions and changed their charter to no longer call for ending Israel. Israel refused to respond to peaceful protests or attempts at political solution because they want to force Gazans to have no option but violence to justify a violent response.

Hamas want to end Israel. What makes you think they’d stop fighting if they were given a state? You’re putting too much stock in a couple of public statements.

Although I agree Likud doesn’t want a two state solution either and they never have. No one is blameless here.

[Leo Gura]

It takes two to tango.

[Raze]

36 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

Hamas want to end Israel. What makes you think they’d stop fighting if they were given a state? You’re putting too much stock in a couple of public statements.

Although I agree Likud doesn’t want a two state solution either and they never have. No one is blameless here.

As of now they changed their charter to no longer call for the destruction of Israel. Maybe they’re saying it now but that’s because Israel is at war with them. What should be the focus, the hypothetical possibility hamas would want to end Israel even if Palestinians had a state, or the fact Israel right now is refusing to give Palestinians a state and trying to ethnically cleanse them. If Israel just keeps repeating the current status quo of blockading and torture, followed by an attack from Palestinians, followed by brutal Israel response, there will never be peace. If we can’t listen to public statements then Israel should just violently occupy Palestinians forever because they may attack Israel? 

If hamas is what’s standing in the way of Israel giving them a state, why did Palestinians not get a state before Hamas was founded? Why was the West Bank not turned into its own state and freed from occupation and settlers after Hamas was driven out? Why isn’t Israel offering Palestinians a state if Hamas steps down?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Raze

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Nivsch It's good that you are atleast admitting the massacre.
The problem is that you still think it is an act of defense and the overreaction is somewhat excusable. 
A conscious state shouldn't act in terms of "patience" or "vengeance", but through compassion and love.

I am not admitting any "massacre".

I admit an intention to kill only terrorists but a more lose outcomes because of the explanations I wrote.

Every country would behave the same and most likely more if cornered in such a way as France just admitted for example.

The inability to see Israel's point of view here is amazing to me.

But what can I expect when stage red highly manipulative propaganda like al jazeera gets probably high rating from here.

At least if the discussion was fair and every claim was accompanied by an earthly wording explanation. But no, 95% are slogans and cloudy words.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[_Archangel_]

@Nivsch Israel's point of view has been fairly addressed and discussed and it seems to me that the most of us here accept that Palestinian and the others Arabic elites are part of the problem. 

None of the above though justifies what Israel has been doing in the west bank and in Gaza, and the more you gather details the more it seems like deliberate action rather than incompetence. 

More than 10000 civilians have died. 

And if you say "what else could they do?" than you are basically accepting the massacre. Or should I still call it "collateral damage"? 

Do you realise this line of thinking can be used to justify Hamas right? 

 

 

[zazen]

“Killing with bombs is something you do from afar. IDF soldiers looks at screens and hit some buttons, and poof, there’s a tiny explosion cloud. It’s not like looking someone in the eye as you run them through with a blade. It’s distant. It’s detached from reality.
 

Another part of it is that with bombs you can say you’re not intentionally killing civilians, even while you take actions that you know will kill a lot of civilians like firing military explosives into a densely populated area. Ostensibly it’s not that you want to kill civilians, it’s that you don’t care enough about their lives to refrain from killing them in that instance.
 

These dynamics help protect the people deploying the bombs from the guilt and trauma of killing large numbers of civilians, which actually makes it easier for them as a collective to kill large numbers of civilians. It lets them feel like they’re perpetrating less evil when in reality they are perpetrating more. Which of course benefits the power structure who is ordering them to deploy the bombs.

 

It’s like the invention of execution by firing squad: people in power needed to be able to kill their enemies, so they invented a system wherein multiple executioners fire at the victim simultaneously so that none of them can be sure that they fired the fatal shot. Sometimes one of the guns would even contain a blank cartridge, thereby feeding into the executioners’ ability to compartmentalize away from the reality of what they were doing by letting them believe they may not have even fired a bullet. This method of execution allowed for executions to continue in whatever numbers were deemed necessary, without putting a drain on troop morale.

 

With bombs the same dissociation dynamic is used to a much, much deadlier effect. Both the public and the troops are given the ability to psychologically compartmentalize away from reality and pretend no great evil is being done, the end result of which is to allow much, much more evil to be done. Israeli forces are massacring Gazans no less brutally than if they were mowing them down with machine guns or stabbing them with bayonets, but because the method of massacre lets them dissociate, it allows for a much higher degree of compliance from the troops and a much higher degree of consent from the public.
 

A tremendous amount of depravity hides behind the completely baseless western delusion that murdering people with bombs is less of an atrocity than murdering them with bullets or blades. In reality, murder is murder and dead is dead. The sooner we can get real with ourselves about that as a civilization, the better.”

Edited December 28, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@_Archangel_

To understand something logically like an history lesson is not enough. It is interesting that when it comes to the palestinians responsibility to the problem, the "understanding" here is conceptual and logical almost like to understand dry data and numbers.

But when it comes to Israel responsibility it is really enough to just read an article about a stupid soldier who robbed a grocery store, to be so attached to it emotionally and throw it on the entire military forces, that by the way, are now sacrifice themselves and their lives in one of the most dangerous and trapped war zones in the world.

Part of them are half kids that are not less deep or less loving than me and you.

Oh no but they are "soldiers", they are just "IDF".

No they aren't.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

 

that by the way, are now sacrifice themselves and their lives in one of the most dangerous and trapped war zones in the world.

Part of them are half kids that are not less deep or less loving than me and you.

Oh no but they are "soldiers", they are just "IDF".

No.

If Israel accepted the cease fire deal they wouldn’t be.

[Nivsch]

@_Archangel_ Think seriously about what would you do if you have for 15 years to go through countless operations that lead to nothing and when one day your entire village were killed or kidnapped while Gazans citizens are celebrating giving out toffy candies.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@Raze Not true. hamas will not release the hostages without the military pressure.

Imagine your friends and family were hostages in Syria and think whether you would not flip Syria upside down to release them.

Part of the actions are aimed also to psychological purposes in order to rise the pressure, but you guys are so judgmental when it comes to Israel when you know quite well that you would do the exact same.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[lina]

I feel like any conversations or debates about the validity of this 'war' is just completely worthless at this point. We have witnessed a sufficient amount of barbarism and ill intent from the Israeli gov that no justification or explanation will be acceptable. The only conversation worth having should be about empowering Israelis who reject military service, ask for a ceasfire and demand Netanyahu to step down. These are the only people who have the power to change the situation. There is no hope in western governments, it's only the people inside Israel who can change the scenario, but unfortunately they are a very small minority.

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

 Do you realise this line of thinking can be used to justify Hamas right? 

If Israel would harm civilians intentionally I would agree with you, but this is not at all the case.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[_Archangel_]

@Nivsch

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

To understand something logically like an history lesson is not enough. It is interesting that when it comes to the palestinians responsibility to the problem, the "understanding" here is conceptual and logical almost like to understand dry data and numbers.

History numbers and data is the only way you can make sense of these kind of conflicts.
If this isn't the way the how?

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But when it comes to Israel responsibility it is really enough to just read an article about a stupid soldier who robbed a grocery store, to be so attached to it emotionally and throw it on the entire military forces, that by the way, are now sacrifice themselves and their lives in one of the most dangerous and trapped war zones in the world.

Part of them are half kids that are not less deep or less loving than me and you.

Oh no but they are "soldiers", they are just "IDF".

Then by your own logic your are faulty because you are so quick to reduce dead palestinians to "dry data and numbers", but when it comes to Israelis you preach empathy. Observe your double standards

And by the way, i never mentioned specific circumstances or blamed soldiers, they just execute orders. I blame those who make the big decisions.

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

If Israel would harm civilians intentionally I would agree with you, but this is not at all the case.

1000 Israelis dead - intentional  /  approx. 15000 Palestinians dead - not intentional, collateral damage
Observe your double standards

And would you even claim that the west bank occupation is not intentional?

[Nivsch]

35 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Nivsch

History numbers and data is the only way you can make sense of these kind of conflicts.
If this isn't the way the how?

The complex relationships between the data are that matter.

About the difference in casulaties see what I think here:

There are no "executions" but isolated more rare cases of criminal activity by idiots can always be when you have tens of thousands of people or soldiers who are also people by the way, anywhere.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze Not true. hamas will not release the hostages without the military pressure.

Imagine your friends and family were hostages in Syria and think whether you would not flip Syria upside down to release them.

Part of the actions are aimed also to psychological purposes in order to rise the pressure, but you guys are so judgmental when it comes to Israel when you know quite well that you would do the exact same.

Hamas offered to release all the hostage in exchange for all of Israel’s Palestine prisoners and a cease fire.

[hundreth]

40 minutes ago, Raze said:

Hamas offered to release all the hostage in exchange for all of Israel’s Palestine prisoners and a cease fire.

It's too late for that. Israel's objective is to eliminate Hamas, rightly so. A cease fire achieves nothing except a pause until the next Hamas episode where this entire process repeats. What do you think is going to happen if there's a ceasefire? It's going to last forever? No. Hamas is going to attack again. Israel is going to retaliate again. It won't be pretty. At least eliminating Hamas creates space for something to change.

I want to be clear, that's not to say Israel shouldn't be careful about how they treat civilians. It's apparent there are some Israelis going too far. It very much saddens me. I hope Hamas is eliminated with as little bloodshed as possible. 

Do I think Israel has a policy to kill as many civilians as possible? No. They're killing less than one civilian per bomb dropped. Do I think that they could exercise more caution? Yes. Do some Israelis believe in ethnic cleansing? Yes. Do many Israelis want peace and a two state solution? Yes. 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Do I think Israel has a policy to kill as many civilians as possible?

No one is saying that.

[hundreth]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

No one is saying that.

There are many saying that in the broader discussion. For example Cenk Uygur repeatedly claimed in his discussion with Destiny that Israel kills as many civilians as possible while creating plausible deniability.

In general I think this was a well done conversation. 

[kenway]