New War In Israel / Gaza

[Leo Gura]

That's the thing. Israel is not merely defending itself as they claim. Their goal is to displace as many Palestinians as they can. But then they lie about that. And no amount of terrorist horror will erase this basic fact.

Israel is engaged in a 70 year ethic cleansing campaign. And they cry about terrorism as a smokescreen.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura I am against the settlements, but I still can understand why after 15 years of countless quite surgical operations and exhuastion, and after that horror in october that was celebrated by Gazans citizens in the streets, Israel's patience will be over and it will explode on them.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura When Gaza gets rebuild as an Israeli city I will agree there was ethnic cleansing. 

Evacuating people out of the line of fire in the hottest battle zones is not ethnic cleaning, its saving lives. by that logic 100 000's of Israelis are ethnically cleansed because they have been evacuated from hot border zones. 

The tragedy is that nowhere in Gaza is really safe but there are still degrees of danger. Maybe next time don't launch a war if you don't want the consequences of war.

@zazen Your propaganda is getting more cringy and petty. 

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

When Gaza gets rebuild as an Israeli city I will agree there was ethnic cleansing. 

Let's wait till Netanyahu barbecues a Palestinian baby.

[Breakingthewall]

29 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura I am against the settlements, but I still can understand why after 15 years of countless quite surgical operations and exhuastion, and after that horror in october that was celebrated by Gazans citizens in the streets, Israel's patience will be over and it will explode on them.

29 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura .

Yes, that's the Netanyahu s plan, He squeezes little by little, until the thing bursts and this allows him to move forward with his plans, which are to expel the Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing, without any doubt. Are they reasons for that? Could be, it's a matter of opinion, but the fact is the fact 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Nivsch]

@Breakingthewall That is not at all what I said.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura Whats your point? Palestinians are still going to live in Gaza after this war. As ugly as this war is, demographically speaking it won't do much on the Gazan population. If anything it will give them a chance to have responsible government that does not dehumanise them. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Bandman said:

Honest question, you think killing 10x+ the amount of people that died in the terrorist attack is really justified? Fuck Hamas, but how can you honestly be in favor of bombing innocent people?

This is a sum of:

1. hamas's number one survival strategy to hide between and disguise to civilians.

2. The huge amount of terror targets (10,000s) to attack what makes it impossible to think every time how to not hurt civilians even if you really want not to.

3. Israel's patience that over after cornered in such an extreme way physically and also psychologically in a way people here I think highly underestimate and miss out, what makes her to behave looser.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura Also the evacuation from Gaza in 2005 and all the offers to the palestinians to have more than 95% of the west bank area, adding to that the other agreements in the 90s including Oslo, Y and Hebron all of that are a big hole in the "Long term ethnic cleansing" theory.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Leo Gura Whats your point? Palestinians are still going to live in Gaza after this war. As ugly as this war is, demographically speaking it won't do much on the Gazan population. If anything it will give them a chance to have responsible government that does not dehumanise them. 

The point is it's still attempts at ethic cleansing. Israel wants to make life for Palestinians as bad as possible so they move out and give up their land.

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

@zazen Your propaganda is getting more cringy and petty.

No need to be rude. I gave you the respect and civility to reply cordially at length as we were having a good discussion 3 pages back but the thread got flooded since. Me sharing posts of geopolitical takes from Dugin or prominent members of Israeli society (Herzog writing on a bomb) who exert actual influence and can shift policy in Israel isn't propaganda - I'm not quoting / cherry picking random Israeli's or far right extremists like like Ben Gvir, neither am I sharing mutilated body images from Gaza to stir up hate which I could easily do. 

Sharing that information is obviously like sandpaper to the ego as it doesn't make Israel look good.  What's cringe is when Israel apologists get confrontational over it and into a mental cage with those who share a different perspective, then verbally jew-jitsu around opposing points the IDF have successfully propagandised them into like online Jewhadists - that's me being petty now. It's all love though.

Here's where we last left off in case you missed it:

On 25/12/2023 at 6:36 PM, zazen said:

I can understand that it can take a dispassionate look at reality to come up with the most compassionate actions that don’t seemingly look compassionate. Most sane people either side agree to want peace and prosperity - I think they differ on the best method to getting there (war vs ceasefire for example) and how it will manifest (a Palestinian state militarised vs de-militarised for example or occupied by some Israeli presence / security apparatus).

 
Part of integrating is elevating. Maybe in the case of war this means not losing the dynamic of war but elevating the nature of it to a non physical domain. Instead of physical war which spills blood we elevate it to a war of idea’s spilt onto the table of discussion - though I do realise for that to take place there first needs to be a certain amount of peace that allows the fight or flight response to not be present blunting either sides ability to reason with eachother. This seems to be the reasoning behind a ceasefire beyond the simply instinctive response to stop bloodshed and which people can easily virtue signal with.

“This war is not going to take away any underlying causes, only a bona fide peace treaty can do that. This war is about removing Hamas and Gaza's military capabilities. I assume that after the war Israel will retain some security control like it has in the West Bank.”

 

People will argue that whatever designates security control is part of the underlying cause that keeps the cycle going. That is the current status quo which you rightly pointed needs changing but which there isn’t a clear objective solution to except remove Hamas and continue as is until Hamas 2.0 props up or a West Bank style security presence which also gets resistance and condemnation for the settler expansion IDF are complicit in by their lack of prosecution. Having laws aren’t enough but rule of law and implementation of it is needed also.

 That keeps the situation as an occupied / occupier dynamic which Israel will deny or say it isn’t an accurate label of the situation because they know what comes from that isn’t in their favour legally / morally. If Palestinians aren’t given a state in the full sense and Israel remain in some way then it needs to be called for what it is which is occupation or a one state within which different districts with different laws exist for different peoples akin to apartheid.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

37 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel wants to make life for Palestinians as bad as possible so they move out and give up their land.

How is this acceptable?

You make it seem like its normal when its a horrible  inhumane thing.It is even worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine. At least Ukranians are allowed to keep their homes 
@Leo Gura

Edited December 27, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

that horror in october that was celebrated by Gazans citizens in the streets

It was celebrated in many places for many reasons. 
First of all people did not know you had massacres of civilians, it looked at first like a military operation where for the first time Palestine took back the land that was stolen from them illegally by Israel in 1948.

So plenty of reason to celebrate about that.

Now if you show people footage from the massacred civilians I doubt people would celebrate as much.

Lastly, the number of people wrongly massacred is not as high as Israel says. From what I saw its around 800 total civilians killed and from those 200-300 were killed by Israel due to the IDF panicking and making errors, especially in the music Festival.

The true death toll of civilians killed by Hamas unjustly is around 500. 40 or so being childreen.

Definetly a big number but no near close the 20.000 and especially 8000 kids killed by Israel

Since childreen are always innocent and cannot be blamed either for Israeli oppression nor Hamas terrorism I will focus on them.

8000:50 is around 160 ratio

So 1 child killed in Israel, you have 160 killed in Gaza. And the ratio will keep increasing each day.

I dont know how this is acceptable in any way.

Even the Nazis at the peak of their insanity had a 100:1 ratio.

Let that sink in

Edited December 27, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Girzo]

13 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How is this acceptable?

You make it seem like its normal when its a horrible  inhumane thing.It is even worse than what Russia is doing in Ukraine. At least Ukranians are allowed to keep their homes 

It's not acceptable. I think you are reading too much into his words trying to find he thinks it's acceptable.

[_Archangel_]

@Vrubel I suggest you check the vocabulary and the definitions approved by the UN of "Genocide" and "Ethic Cleansing"

@Nivsch It's good that you are atleast admitting the massacre.
The problem is that you still think it is an act of defense and the overreaction is somewhat excusable. 
A conscious state shouldn't act in terms of "patience" or "vengeance", but through compassion and love.

[Vrubel]

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The point is it's still attempts at ethic cleansing. Israel wants to make life for Palestinians as bad as possible so they move out and give up their land.

From the perspective of the Palestinian cause they are lucky they have nowhere to go and nobody wants to take them in. They are basically forced to sit out this war on their own land. From a human POV, it's disastrous. 

If we talk about the West Bank, yes there is settler violence which is relatively small scale and dumb Israeli foot shooting. I think settlers that do violence should be expelled from the West Bank. The other side of the coin is that Israel (in normal times) gives Palestinians high-paying employment and access to its hospitals when they suffer from special cases that they cannot treat themselves. The West Bank is much wealthier than for example the country of Jordan or Egypt and let alone places like Syria and Lebanon. The only scenario where I can imagine West Bank Palestinians getting expelled is if they get an independent state, organize themselves, and do a 7/10-like attack on Israel.

 

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How is this acceptable?

You make it seem like its normal
@Leo Gura

I am saying that Israelis are being devils.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The point is it's still attempts at ethic cleansing. Israel wants to make life for Palestinians as bad as possible so they move out and give up their land.

When people point out that 'cruelty is the point' of Israeli policy towards Palestinians, it's to this that they're referring to.

Really, the far-Right in Israel is exhibiting something very similar to the type of mentality that led to 'sun down towns' in the United States up until just a few generations ago, where black people could be openly lynched if they were caught in a white neighborhood after sunset. The point was to make life so miserable for an ethnic minority that they would just give up any hopes of trying to better thier situation, and just leave.

Edited December 27, 2023 by DocWatts

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I am saying that Israelis are being devils.

and what about the fact that in the past multiple Palestinian leaders such as Yasser Arafat refused to make any peace deals or treaties that Israel Israel offered them?

Why didn't it work out in Oslo during the 90s?

Edited December 28, 2023 by Hardkill

[Joel3102]

@Leo Gura as long as Hamas are in power, peace will never happen? Should they not be removed?