New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

It is heartwarming 🥰

This phrase calling for the genocide of Jews and ethnic cleansing from Israel is highly cringe worthy, violent, and antisemitic.

What about the similar phrase used in the likud party charter? Same way people thought the Black Lives Matter slogan was a call for genociding white people - though some extremists were amongst that movement / organisation for sure. 

 

What could be heartwarming is that Christians and functioning churches exist in Gaza - something the Mayor of Jerusalem (not a random person) denied because it goes against the narrative that Hamas / Gazans are anti-semite savages. For the mayor of such a holy city to lie and deny facts that lead to dehumanisation that causes such unholy crimes upon the holy land isn’t heartwarming however - especially during Christmas - yet the evangelical Zionists will still cheer on ironically.

 

Maybe also this:

Could be that hostages were taken mostly as a bargaining chip in exchange for their women and children detained without due course for rock throwing. And as a leverage as any other form of protest or leverage are shut down by Israel including the BDS movement which South Africans used to successfully free themselves.
 

As the saying goes when all means of peaceful protest are shut down the violent means become the last - though Israel could say that when peaceful means of self defence don’t work they must resort to violent means of defence.

Edited December 24, 2023 by zazen

[Merkabah Star]

Heartwarming, a meme from Germany, the country that exterminated the Jews. Ok, desperate for things to post if that’s all you’ve got.

im not a fan of the saying, 3 years in prison is a bit extreme tho. 
 

 

[Lila9]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

Maybe also this:

Just because a few terrorists acted humanely toward a few individuals doesn't negate the fact that they are savages. It doesn't erase what they have done, and, more horrifyingly, the way in which it was done.

Most of them committed cruel and inhumane acts against most of the Israelis they encountered.

I'm not here to convince you who they are and what values they have vs Israel.

Come and see yourself, come visit Israel and Palestine. See who has more freedom of religion and human rights, if you dare. 

[Nivsch]

@Lila9 Of course they "need" them, to be their cards for a deal which will help them (hamas) to survive. I am not saying they can't show glimpses of humanity here and there, but this article doesn't indicates nothing like that, unless the reader wants so much to hear otherwise.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

30 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Lila9 Of course they "need" them, to be their cards for a deal which will help them (hamas) to survive. I am not saying they can't show glimpses of humanity here and there, but this article doesn't indicates nothing like that, unless the reader wants so much to hear otherwise.

You know what else is fascinating about this X post?

That Mr. Jake Shields posted:

"Now you understand why Israel doesn’t allow their hostages to speak to the media"

While in reality the intreiew he referes to was posted in one of the most mainstream news channels in Israel!

They not only lie and spread propaganda about Hamas being innocent and humane with the hostages (after the majority of the hostages, including Thai hostages, were talking about the shitty treatment and conditions they got in Hamas captivity, not to mention how many hostages Hamas killed in captivity) they also conspiracizing about Israel's media hiding it (while what they claim to be 'hided' literally was broadcasted on the Israeli mainstream media).

They got lost with their lies and distortion of reality I guess, I already offered them to get out of X and AJ, now it's up to them.

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Lila9

[Nivsch]

@Lila9 Yes I agree with you. Stage Red propaganda will always be more manipulative and more misleading.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

5 hours ago, zazen said:

What could be heartwarming is that Christians and functioning churches exist in Gaza - something the Mayor of Jerusalem (not a random person) denied because it goes against the narrative that Hamas / Gazans are anti-semite savages. For the mayor of such a holy city to lie and deny facts that lead to dehumanisation that causes such unholy crimes upon the holy land isn’t heartwarming however - especially during Christmas - yet the evangelical Zionists will still cheer on ironically.

 

Maybe also this:

Haha "Now you understand why Israel doesn’t allow their hostages to speak to the media" *proceeds to show hostages talking to Israeli media.

It perfectly captures the low-brow mushy minds of pro-Palestine people and Hamas cuckholds. Don't delude yourself into thinking you have some kind of moral high ground. Each Palestinian killed by an Israeli bomb was really killed by Hamas.

Hamas doesn't give a shit about the bare minimum of responsible government for fellow Muslims let alone minority rights. Hamas doesn't give a fuck about Muslims dying. During their attack they consciously from point-blank range shot a pregnant Bedouin woman in the stomach, she had a hijab and everything. There was also a video of how they captured an Arab from Jerusalem who spoke Arab and he was found killed.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Vrubel

[kenway]

42 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Each Palestinian killed by an Israeli bomb was really killed by Hamas.

 

Choco rations going up. 25 grams next week.

[kenway]

On the eve of Christmas, the brilliant Peter Oborne gives his thoughts on what Jesus may have made of all this.

 

[Merkabah Star]

 

[Nivsch]

@Merkabah Star Al Jazeera wants Gazan children to stay under the cult of hamas forever.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Merkabah Star Al Jazeera wants Gazan children to stay under the cult of hamas forever.

Every news channel says the same thing. You live in a propaganda bubble, rich in victim blaming. 

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

Every news channel says the same thing. You live in a propaganda bubble, rich in victim blaming. 

Play the ball, not the man. You really don't know the people here and be careful for projection. @Nivsch is on a forum with people with different views so by that alone he doesn't live in a bubble. It seems to me he is having a reasonable discussion where possible and explaining the Israeli perspective when necessary. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Vrubel

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Play the ball, not the man. You really don't know the people here and be careful for projection. @Nivsch is on a forum with people with different views so by that alone he doesn't live in a bubble. It seems to me he is having a reasonable discussion where possible and explaining the Israeli perspective when necessary. 

I’ve known many Israeli people over the years. Sweet people for the most part. Not the ones who told my Jewish partner at the time that he isn’t a real Jew because his family were Polish, holocaust survivors. Every country has a few morons so not everyone is like that, I know. 
 

nivsch is nice enough as are you. But the bubble comment is true. Sorry if you feel that offends you. 
 

the world we all live in (outside of Israel) is big on human rights violations. So no one is pro Hamas because what they did was horrific, human rights violations. But the Israeli response has been equally as horrific in regards to women and children deaths. Kill Hamas, yes, they deserve to die, but the civilian deaths are going to make the majority of the world on the Gazans side. It’s just human nature in the times we live in. We can’t pretend it’s justified. It’s not. 
 

[zazen]

@Lila9 @Vrubel Silly caption from Jake shield lol good that a Israeli media outlet shared that.

It doesn’t detract from the interview shedding light and providing some nuance on who Hamas are that’s all - maybe whilst there are cruel people among them there are also normal ones who joined because they saw no other way out of their situation including a lot more normal people who will probably join now after Israel’s atrocities who if or when they come up again in a few years it will be easy to reflexively refer to them as savage animals.

Sharing a different view point isn’t establishing a moral high ground - it’s not like people are going around saying their moral the way Israel claims to be the most moral army. It’s just understanding the situation a bit better rather than the base assumption and reflexive labeling of ‘virus’ or ‘savage’ which dehumanises - though not done with ill intent or in a vacuum either - dehumanisation shuts down neural pathways to understanding, which blinds us to their cause, which blinds us to the root of the issue and the eventual solution.

As Vrubel mentioned adding an Islamist ideaology to these kind of conditions is a recipe for repeated October 7’s. It’s much harder to destroy the ideology than it is to improve / change the conditions which breed that extremist kind of ideology - though changing the conditions by coming to a peace agreement isn’t easy either.
 

But with every bomb Israel thinks gets rid of Hamas it likely only reinforces revenge within their psyche and a victimhood mentality that brings a level of entitlement with it that will demand more concessions in a future peace deal that Israel will be too stubborn to accept - the status quo and cycle continues. You teach them how you want to be treated - and when or if they (Hamas 2.0 or a future Palestinian state) organise in the future Israel better hope they don’t want to seek revenge for how its treated them in the present.

Vrubel - you mentioned the way Hamas / Gazans act makes the world lose sympathy for them but to me (maybe I’m echo chambered) it seems the opposite - if anything the Palestinian cause has garnered more sympathy worldwide than ever before by looking at the global protests, social media and condemnation for Israel’s actions from nations and global organisations.

 

Happy holidays to all 🎄

Edited December 25, 2023 by zazen

[Vrubel]

@Merkabah Star@zazen

I think we differ on a fundamental level: 

I don't buy in the whole narrative of "ceasefire now". I get it, you want the killing to end and to do the seemingly compassionate thing. But this is not a matter of wanting but a matter of needing. This war needs to be fought to take away the Hamas threat. 

Maintaining the current status quo will be more dangerous and deadly for both Israelis and Palestinians. Stage green values and morality cannot offer a solution here. The Middle East has it own sets of rules.

You might say its cruel and militaristic of me. But these are also aspects of live that need to be integrated. Israel didn't start this war. If Israel had a button to only eliminate Hamas and leave everybody else be they would press that button. But this is not how this world works. The nature of this war will produce a lot of civilian casualties. This is not the Napoleonic era where armies fight in an open field and the parties involved gracefully respect each other in a gentleman manner. 

I'll take responsibility for Israel's faults and Israel's extremists. But than again Hamas doesn't give a fuck wether Israel has a very reasonable centrist left government or an excessive right wing government. 

5 hours ago, zazen said:

As Vrubel mentioned adding an Islamist ideaology to these kind of conditions is a recipe for repeated October 7’s. It’s much harder to destroy the ideology than it is to improve / change the conditions which breed that extremist kind of ideology - though changing the conditions by coming to a peace agreement isn’t easy either.

But with every bomb Israel thinks gets rid of Hamas it likely only reinforces revenge within their psyche and a victimhood mentality that brings a level of entitlement with it that will demand more concessions in a future peace deal that Israel will be too stubborn to accept - the status quo and cycle continues. You teach them how you want to be treated - and when or if they (Hamas 2.0 or a future Palestinian state) organise again in the future Israel better hope they don’t want to seek revenge for how its treated them in the present.

This war is not going to take away any underlying causes, only a bona fide peace treaty can do that. This war is about removing Hamas and Gaza's military capabilities. I assume that after the war Israel will retain some security control like it has in the West Bank. 
 

5 hours ago, zazen said:

Vrubel - you mentioned the way Hamas / Gazans act makes the world lose sympathy for them but to me (maybe I’m echo chambered) it seems the opposite - if anything the Palestinian cause has garnered more sympathy worldwide than ever before by looking at the global protests, social media and condemnation for Israel’s actions from nations and global organisations.

Many pro Palestine people behave like animals, they form an incredibly hypocrite loud minority. They don't care about truth or humanity and if they do they do, it is in an incredibly naive way. 

I know most world media is biased towards a ceasefire, its the standard uncontroversial, seemingly humane standpoint. It's easy to have that standpoint if you don't understand or starkly feel the need of removing Hamas. Well.. after 7/10 Israel does. 

I don't want to make this into a battle of who got most popular support, because it's not what matters and to be honest most people aren't that deeply involved or care that much. But in the West at least, Israel still has a lot of support among the silent majority. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Vrubel Great point.

More popular doesn't mean more right, actually many times (if not mostly?) this is quite the opposite.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Nivsch

[kenway]

[Nivsch]

15 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

the world we all live in (outside of Israel) is big on human rights violations. 

Exactly, too instinctively and too automatically I would say, totally from the gut, without realizing that this situation is very tricky and twisted.

After countless operations with what I found an average surgicality of ~70% which I think is quite good given hamas's main survival strategy, but repeated frustration and unjustness from the misunderstanding and pressure from western countries on Israel every time again, when hamas get to decieve the world again and again leave Israel exhuasted, and one day kills and abducts 1400 of our people

then, the pressure cooker will understandably overflow 🫕

Edited December 25, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

52 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Vrubel Great point.

More popular doesn't mean more right, actually many times (if not mostly?) this is quite the oppposite.

True. As societies develop and evolve so do the standards of right and wrong and things that used to be or are currently seen as popular may not be in the future. Though popular perspectives also can’t be dismissed outright - like how we in modern times do more easily to religion and tradition which have truths that can become distorted. It’s the distortions we detest.

Partial truths are often hijacked by dirty distortions of that truth. For example the Black Lives Matter movement - massive protests happened signalling a certain truth that resonated with the masses - one being that police can act out brutally and blacks are over represented in these statistics. Like a dirty bomb, the dirty distortion of that truth is that this is intently done by white people leading to a simplistic ‘white man bad’ meme. Then the cause is hijacked by bad agents wishing to sneak in their ideologies - in the BLM case anarchist sentiments of defunding the police.