New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

26 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

If any other country would have done this, there would be a massive outrage

But without this army attendance in the west bank, 7.10 would be considered a tiny event.

And why the tree behind him so early? He can't wait couple of more days? This is not fair I also want to celebrate this holiday.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

17 hours ago, hundreth said:

I don't believe anyone actually feels the way you're framing it. There are some Israelis for whom there are no conditions which warrant the Palestinians gaining sovereignty. I'm not one of them.

There are others who want to see the Palestinians doing well. When they're doing well, the focus on retribution, hate, anger and violence greatly lessens. Trust is built over time. 

Of course the Israelis have their own side in this to play in terms of a culture and leadership shift on their ends. It feels like you're only able to hold one viewpoint at once. Either all of the responsibility must be placed on the Palestinians, or all of it must be placed on the Israelis. Why are they mutually exclusive?

It's perfectly fine to want to see internal change from both sides. 

 

I agree both sides need to change no doubt. But putting them in certain conditions will change them for the worse rather than the better. During this whole time ‘waiting’ for them to change and build themselves under certain conditions they’re seeing what could be their future state being eaten away at rapid pace. And this isn’t just centrist liberal minded settlers but far right orthodox ones who are now armed and will be impossible to re-settle. This segment of the Israeli population will also make up a third of the population (due to higher birth rate) only shifting Israel more right in the years to come whilst the US population (youth) are shifting their support away from Israel at the same time - the two are diverging in opposite direction. 

 Are we expecting them to develop to stage green or something before giving them a state - by then it would be full of settlers nullifying the whole thing. It’s more on the abuser to win the trust of the one he’s abusing - can we expect the person being abused to not resist and ‘develop’ to a point to stop being abused or is it the inalienable right of the abused to stop the abuse first? 

The same logic that says ‘when we are attacked (October 7th) we retaliate in self defense and don’t look to assess the morality or the casualties of it’ can be applied to the Palestinians. October 7th will be etched in the mind of Israelis as a terrifying day, but 7 terrifying and dehumanising decades are etched in the mind of Palestinians - not just a day but the date x decades. And sure, for Jews they have been unjustly prosecuted in the worst of ways for hundreds of years and deserve a safe place and state of their own - just not at the expense of others, especially not the ones who didn’t inflict that suffering on them. Palestinians shouldn’t be paying the blood price for the sins of others who persecuted the Jews.

Israel has adopted a strategy of defense which commits atrocities to those that offered to protect them from atrocities. They mine their past traumatic history and in doing so and living amongst that dark past through victimhood re-traumatise others in the present day. Israel is obsessed with its right to self defence but doesn’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress.

You may not frame the situation as Israel being the abuser but all relevant bodies and states of the world refer to it as such - human rights groups and even states that are allies with Israel acknowledge occupation and apartheid - abuses to the spirit and dignity of man.

Edited December 17, 2023 by zazen

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

And why the tree behind him so early? He can't wait couple of more days? This is not fair I also want to celebrate this holiday.

😂

That's totally unfair.

[zazen]

14 hours ago, lina said:

IDF bulldozed displaced wounded civilians... it's becoming more horrifying and gruesome day by day in front of the whole world eyes. 

 

@Danioover9000 Good John Mearshimer share - seems to be a very reasonable objective voice.

To add to Nabds video of Bibi invoking Almalek again - the same time three hostages were sadly killed waiving white flags and shirtless just shows how the IDF operates. What of Palestinian civilians they come across wearing clothes (can’t see if their armed) and not waiving a flag..bad optics.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

😂

That's totally unfair.

Praise jesus, saturnalia and get a tree

it‘s soooo cozy

[Vrubel]

3 hours ago, Nabd said:

Netanyahu: You must remember what Amalek has done to you.

Damn I keep getting surprised by how deep in shit Israeli government is. I can't imagine MBS or Sisi or any other president/monarch in the middle east to talk like that today. The only ones invoking ancient retarded holy books and taking them seriously are Hamas, Israel and Iran.

We are living in strange times where Saudi Arabia is more progressive than Israel.

It's kind of petty to cling to these words given they were spoken after such a brutal, unspeakable attack. Off course you will invoke the bible to gather yourself together and project strength.
If Saudi Arabia was to be attacked the same way they would unleash a medieval hell on their attackers. There is nothing really special about Israeli self bias. Historically, Practically and culturally speaking Israelis are an exceptional people in many respects. 

Man.. there is nothing surprising about everything that is happening. It was clear from the get go that the response on Gaza would be brutal. Maybe don't attack a highly patriotic, self biased, well armed neighbour. There was a ceasefire before 7/10, the next one will be on the day after Hamas. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Vrubel

[YeahIam]

@Leo Gura 

What do you think of Arnold's stance on the war, if you were in his shoes what would you do differently? 

 

Starting at 21:04

I think he tried to speak his truth while sustaining good relations with the Israelis.

But I can't help but feel saddened by how he strongly expresses how he stands with Israel while walking on egg-shells half-assing his expressed little to no opposition to what is happening to the Palestinians. 

 

 

[Vrubel]

21 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Karmadhi

   Speaking of him:

 

He downplays the threat posed by Hamas and Hezbollah. He argues there is no existential threat to Israel. That's not true. The existential threat for Israel is that it cannot exist as a state when terrorists whether from Hamas or Hezbollah can do savage incursions from time to time. That's why Israel has to cleanse these groups off its borders.

What people don't get is that it is insanity for Israel to just let Hamas and Hezbollah off the hook and do a ceasefire. Israel has to literally cleanse its borders from such organizations if it wants to continue to exist as a state. You have no right to exist if you cannot defend your people from rape, murder and kidnapping. 

Also, the whole apartheid narrative is bullshit or at the very least intellectually dishonest. Palestinians in Gaza are ruled by Hamas, and Palestinians in the West Bank by the PA with Israeli security control to break up terrorist organizing. And Israeli Arabs have full rights without even the duty to serve. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Vrubel

[Raze]

 

[hundreth]

5 hours ago, zazen said:

 

I agree both sides need to change no doubt. But putting them in certain conditions will change them for the worse rather than the better. During this whole time ‘waiting’ for them to change and build themselves under certain conditions they’re seeing what could be their future state being eaten away at rapid pace. And this isn’t just centrist liberal minded settlers but far right orthodox ones who are now armed and will be impossible to re-settle. This segment of the Israeli population will also make up a third of the population (due to higher birth rate) only shifting Israel more right in the years to come whilst the US population (youth) are shifting their support away from Israel at the same time - the two are diverging in opposite direction. 

 Are we expecting them to develop to stage green or something before giving them a state - by then it would be full of settlers nullifying the whole thing. It’s more on the abuser to win the trust of the one he’s abusing - can we expect the person being abused to not resist and ‘develop’ to a point to stop being abused or is it the inalienable right of the abused to stop the abuse first? 

The same logic that says ‘when we are attacked (October 7th) we retaliate in self defense and don’t look to assess the morality or the casualties of it’ can be applied to the Palestinians. October 7th will be etched in the mind of Israelis as a terrifying day, but 7 terrifying and dehumanising decades are etched in the mind of Palestinians - not just a day but the date x decades. And sure, for Jews they have been unjustly prosecuted in the worst of ways for hundreds of years and deserve a safe place and state of their own - just not at the expense of others, especially not the ones who didn’t inflict that suffering on them. Palestinians shouldn’t be paying the blood price for the sins of others who persecuted the Jews.

Israel has adopted a strategy of defense which commits atrocities to those that offered to protect them from atrocities. They mine their past traumatic history and in doing so and living amongst that dark past through victimhood re-traumatise others in the present day. Israel is obsessed with its right to self defence but doesn’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress.

You may not frame the situation as Israel being the abuser but all relevant bodies and states of the world refer to it as such - human rights groups and even states that are allies with Israel acknowledge occupation and apartheid - abuses to the spirit and dignity of man.

I never think of it in terms of societal development and Spiral dynamics stages. I don't expect the Palestinians to have a culture shift overnight and I understand your concerns. I also don't think it falls squarely on them.

What I do feel is that the international community needs to shift it's focus from victimization to empowerment. The international community will need to step up and directly invest peacekeeping forces and business initiatives to kick start the process.

Also, I have no disillusions about Israel being oppressive and abusive. I know they are. But just as you've mentioned a 7 decade long process for Palestinians to have their viewpoints, Israelis have also endured 7 decades of wars of annihilation, terrorist attacks, and bad faith negotiations where peace was never truly the agenda of the Palestinians. The destruction of Israel is the goal. From the river to the sea as they say. Today this phrase has been rebranded, but Jews don't forget. It's telling that pro Palestinian voices insist on using a loaded phrase with genocidal undertones. Even if you use it with a different meaning, you're aware that many use the same phrase for nefarious purposes. You would never do such a thing in any other context.

I believe Israelis from previous generations were way more invested in peaceful outcomes than today. What you see today is a product of decades of frustration and zero progress. 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

He downplays the threat posed by Hamas and Hezbollah. He argues there is no existential threat to Israel. That's not true. The existential threat for Israel is that it cannot exist as a state when terrorists whether from Hamas or Hezbollah can do savage incursions from time to time. That's why Israel has to cleanse these groups off its borders.

What people don't get is that it is insanity for Israel to just let Hamas and Hezbollah off the hook and do a ceasefire. Israel has to literally cleanse its borders from such organizations if it wants to continue to exist as a state. You have no right to exist if you cannot defend your people from rape, murder and kidnapping. 

Also, the whole apartheid narrative is bullshit or at the very least intellectually dishonest. Palestinians in Gaza are ruled by Hamas, and Palestinians in the West Bank by the PA with Israeli security control to break up terrorist organizing. And Israeli Arabs have full rights without even the duty to serve. 

   And? That's a different argument related adjacent to the other arguments we've been having. The argument we're focused on is the humanitarian crisis caused by israel onto Palestinians from the West Bank, to Gaza, and even to Israeli Palestinians by the alt right Zionists within Israel, israel expansionism of a greater israel at the cost of some Palestinians dying and suffering, and related is the problems of the israel lobby movement within the USA leveraging thier support of israel. So John Mearsheimer's argument is specifically in regards to the humanitarian crisis and against Zionists wanting to genocide the Palestinians for a greater israel. What John Mearsheimer isn't argueing for or against is HAMAs and Hezbollah specifically, and whether it's justified for isreal to exterminate HAMAs or Hezbollah, John is more focused on the lose of life of civilians by israel's military, so I think this 'downplaying' is merely another argument that he isn't making, that you're assuming he's making.

   What people don't get is how integrated HAMAs is to Gaza and even the West Bank, and Hezbollah is to southern Lebanon, and the military actions of israel radicalizing Muslims who may have been centrist, or slightly right or left leaning, to be polarized into strongly supporting Hezbollah or HAMAs due to fears of israel invading into their areas. By israel ethnic cleansing it's borders, the attempt will create collateral damage to Gaza, to West Bank, and if the situation escalates, to southern Lebanon. Can you imagine the cost of life if israel isn't held down by the USA? Do you know how many lives will get killed and suffer from israel invading? It's almost guaranteed that lose of civilian life will be far greater than estimated.

   How is the whole apartheid BS? What is a better parallel to this situation? Nazi Germany?

   And how would you lead and manage this conflict against HAMAs and Hezbollah, while minimizing cost to civilian lives caught in the crossfires, by sophisticated technological weaponry by israel's weapons versus HAMA's own?  

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

6 hours ago, zazen said:

 

I agree both sides need to change no doubt. But putting them in certain conditions will change them for the worse rather than the better. During this whole time ‘waiting’ for them to change and build themselves under certain conditions they’re seeing what could be their future state being eaten away at rapid pace. And this isn’t just centrist liberal minded settlers but far right orthodox ones who are now armed and will be impossible to re-settle. This segment of the Israeli population will also make up a third of the population (due to higher birth rate) only shifting Israel more right in the years to come whilst the US population (youth) are shifting their support away from Israel at the same time - the two are diverging in opposite direction. 

 Are we expecting them to develop to stage green or something before giving them a state - by then it would be full of settlers nullifying the whole thing. It’s more on the abuser to win the trust of the one he’s abusing - can we expect the person being abused to not resist and ‘develop’ to a point to stop being abused or is it the inalienable right of the abused to stop the abuse first? 

The same logic that says ‘when we are attacked (October 7th) we retaliate in self defense and don’t look to assess the morality or the casualties of it’ can be applied to the Palestinians. October 7th will be etched in the mind of Israelis as a terrifying day, but 7 terrifying and dehumanising decades are etched in the mind of Palestinians - not just a day but the date x decades. And sure, for Jews they have been unjustly prosecuted in the worst of ways for hundreds of years and deserve a safe place and state of their own - just not at the expense of others, especially not the ones who didn’t inflict that suffering on them. Palestinians shouldn’t be paying the blood price for the sins of others who persecuted the Jews.

Israel has adopted a strategy of defense which commits atrocities to those that offered to protect them from atrocities. They mine their past traumatic history and in doing so and living amongst that dark past through victimhood re-traumatise others in the present day. Israel is obsessed with its right to self defence but doesn’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress.

You may not frame the situation as Israel being the abuser but all relevant bodies and states of the world refer to it as such - human rights groups and even states that are allies with Israel acknowledge occupation and apartheid - abuses to the spirit and dignity of man.

   Nice post as always.

[Danioover9000]

   This is the AIPAC:

   And John Mearsheimer's take:

 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

He downplays the threat posed by Hamas and Hezbollah. He argues there is no existential threat to Israel. That's not true. The existential threat for Israel is that it cannot exist as a state when terrorists whether from Hamas or Hezbollah can do savage incursions from time to time. That's why Israel has to cleanse these groups off its borders.

What people don't get is that it is insanity for Israel to just let Hamas and Hezbollah off the hook and do a ceasefire. Israel has to literally cleanse its borders from such organizations if it wants to continue to exist as a state. You have no right to exist if you cannot defend your people from rape, murder and kidnapping. 

Also, the whole apartheid narrative is bullshit or at the very least intellectually dishonest. Palestinians in Gaza are ruled by Hamas, and Palestinians in the West Bank by the PA with Israeli security control to break up terrorist organizing. And Israeli Arabs have full rights without even the duty to serve. 

👍🔥

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

👍🔥

🙊🙉🙈🤷‍♀️

[Vrubel]

20 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

, so I think this 'downplaying' is merely another argument that he isn't making, that you're assuming he's making.

He literally said there is no existential threat to Israel. 

Being vulnerable to such horrific attacks is an existential threat. Only a complete imbecile Dodo bird will be fine with it and not remove the threats. 

 

22 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

By israel ethnic cleansing it's borders, the attempt will create collateral damage to Gaza, to West Bank, and if the situation escalates, to southern Lebanon. Can you imagine the cost of life if israel isn't held down by the USA? Do you know how many lives will get killed and suffer from israel invading? It's almost guaranteed that lose of civilian life will be far greater than estimated.

With cleansing, I meant the terrorist organizations, not the population. 

In a certain sense Hamas has thrown Hezbollah under the bus because Israel now starkly realizes they cannot live with such savages directly at the border. 

Ideally, some diplomatic solution will be found. I think war can be avoided if Hezbollah moves away from the Israel border and some DMZ into Lebanon is established. 
 

26 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

How is the whole apartheid BS? What is a better parallel to this situation? Nazi Germany?

It's not apartheid, it's its own thing. Israel scores a lot of own goals with its policies, which Palestinians can leverage to fight for their rights in peaceful ways. The whole world is reporting on it and condemning Israel. All that Palestinians have to do for hearts and minds (including mine) is not to support terror. Yet that's what they overwhelmingly do and turns many people definitively off (including myself). They A: present themselves as a great(er) evil and B: people just don't click with such backward dysfunctional worldviews. Most people care about Palestinian rights but not about the extermination or doing terror against Israelis. 
 

31 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

 And how would you lead and manage this conflict against HAMAs and Hezbollah, while minimizing cost to civilian lives caught in the crossfires, by sophisticated technological weaponry by israel's weapons versus HAMA's own?  

I am not a military commander so I have no idea but it's clear that Hamas exploits its own population to the fullest. Despite everything it's Israel that cares more for the civilians of Gaza. Even Hamas literally said that the burden of caring for the civilian population is on the UN and "the occupation". Hamas' greatest strength is that it just doesn't give a fuck about anything and isn't responsible for anything or anyone. They just fight and hide in their tunnels hoping for Israel to just stop because of the international pressure and then they will emerge from the tunnels giving peace signs and being cheered as heroes by the population. That's what winning looks like for Hamas. But Israel of course cannot allow for Hamas to rebuild itself and again risk another 7/10. The scope of Israel's seriousness is enormous, it's not fucking around anymore. 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

He literally said there is no existential threat to Israel. 

Being vulnerable to such horrific attacks is an existential threat. Only a complete imbecile Dodo bird will be fine with it and not remove the threats. 

 

With cleansing, I meant the terrorist organizations, not the population. 

In a certain sense Hamas has thrown Hezbollah under the bus because Israel now starkly realizes they cannot live with such savages directly at the border. 

Ideally, some diplomatic solution will be found. I think war can be avoided if Hezbollah moves away from the Israel border and some DMZ into Lebanon is established. 
 

It's not apartheid, it's its own thing. Israel scores a lot of own goals with its policies, which Palestinians can leverage to fight for their rights in peaceful ways. The whole world is reporting on it and condemning Israel. All that Palestinians have to do for hearts and minds (including mine) is not to support terror. Yet that's what they overwhelmingly do and turns many people definitively off (including myself). They A: present themselves as a great(er) evil and B: people just don't click with such backward dysfunctional worldviews. Most people care about Palestinian rights but not about the extermination or doing terror against Israelis. 
 

I am not a military commander so I have no idea but it's clear that Hamas exploits its own population to the fullest. Despite everything it's Israel that cares more for the civilians of Gaza. Even Hamas literally said that the burden of caring for the civilian population is on the UN and "the occupation". Hamas' greatest strength is that it just doesn't give a fuck about anything and isn't responsible for anything or anyone. They just fight and hide in their tunnels hoping for Israel to just stop because of the international pressure and then they will emerge from the tunnels giving peace signs and being cheered as heroes by the population. That's what winning looks like for Hamas. But Israel of course cannot allow for Hamas to rebuild itself and again risk another 7/10. The scope of Israel's seriousness is enormous, it's not fucking around anymore. 

   Why would John Mearsheimer say there's literally no existential threat to Israel? Also that's anoterh argument I'm and others here are not making, he is. Stop assuming I'm arguing the same as him.

   Cleansing and ethnic cleansing while they're at it, and some genocide because after all HAM,As, similar to Hezbollah, is integrated into Gaza and West Bank, so again how would you avoid unnecessary lose of life while taking out HAMAs terrorists? Also, Isreal's military equipment is so precise they know exactly who's HAMAs and who's a Palestinian civilian, so wouldn't this fall under the definition of genocide by the UN?

   So it's clear when HAMAs or Hezbollah take advantage of it's population, but not so clear when Israel does?

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   And? That's a different argument related adjacent to the other arguments we've been having. The argument we're focused on is the humanitarian crisis caused by israel onto Palestinians from the West Bank, to Gaza, and even to Israeli Palestinians by the alt right Zionists within Israel, israel expansionism of a greater israel at the cost of some Palestinians dying and suffering, and related is the problems of the israel lobby movement within the USA leveraging thier support of israel. So John Mearsheimer's argument is specifically in regards to the humanitarian crisis and against Zionists wanting to genocide the Palestinians for a greater israel. What John Mearsheimer isn't argueing for or against is HAMAs and Hezbollah specifically, and whether it's justified for isreal to exterminate HAMAs or Hezbollah, John is more focused on the lose of life of civilians by israel's military, so I think this 'downplaying' is merely another argument that he isn't making, that you're assuming he's making.

   What people don't get is how integrated HAMAs is to Gaza and even the West Bank, and Hezbollah is to southern Lebanon, and the military actions of israel radicalizing Muslims who may have been centrist, or slightly right or left leaning, to be polarized into strongly supporting Hezbollah or HAMAs due to fears of israel invading into their areas. By israel ethnic cleansing it's borders, the attempt will create collateral damage to Gaza, to West Bank, and if the situation escalates, to southern Lebanon. Can you imagine the cost of life if israel isn't held down by the USA? Do you know how many lives will get killed and suffer from israel invading? It's almost guaranteed that lose of civilian life will be far greater than estimated.

   How is the whole apartheid BS? What is a better parallel to this situation? Nazi Germany?

   And how would you lead and manage this conflict against HAMAs and Hezbollah, while minimizing cost to civilian lives caught in the crossfires, by sophisticated technological weaponry by israel's weapons versus HAMA's own?  

1. What humanitarian crisis there is in the west bank? Beside the water quality problem. In gaza there is I agree.

2. "Israel expansionism to the greater Israel in the cost of palesitnians dying"?

Who said the goal is to reach "greater Israel"? This is at most a projection of the podcaster.

How does the settlememts expansion cause palestinians dying? This is only true when an extremist settler do its own deal but not a regular scenario. 

3. Zionists want to genocide? This is also a projection in the mind of the podcaster.

4. The military action radicalize muslims - I agree with you. But what is the alternative? To get out of the west bank?

5. Israel's "ethnic cleansing in the borders"? How so? The threat near the border is by Radwan force which is 100% a terorrist group.

6. "appartheid"?

Can you give an exmple?

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Raze  @zazen Great video on the conflict:

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Danioover9000