New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

@zazen It wasn't to justify anything but to add an another underrated parameter into the equation.

You write many big words ("mistreat", "governed", "colonialism", "aphartheid") ungrounded in anything tangible and explicable I can answer too. This is no more than a very big helium balloon.

Again it is recommended to Israel to stop build anything new and in that way offer an agreement based on this.

But in the other hand Israel has initiated countless offers mediated by many players that could also put an end to the settlements expansion but was refused by the palestinians again and again.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/initial-idf-probe-hostages-were-shirtless-waving-white-flag-when-soldiers-opened-fire/

interesting article, it seems the hostages killed by the IDF were shirtless and waving a white flag, but unfortunately the IDF mistook them for Palestinians and fired at them then pursued one who was fleeing. When they heard him speak Hebrew the commander tried to get them to stop but they didn’t listen time. 

This makes me very suspicious about their reports of killing 6,000 Hamas members. Are they actually confirming they’re from Hamas or just assuming any male who looks 18 or older they killed is Hamas? If they’re literally firing at people even if they’re shirtless unarmed and waving a white flag that very well may be the case.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Raze

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Palestine is not part of the Israel government, so why would it fall under its democracy? Israel treats Palestine as a foreign terrorist state. Democracy does not apply outside one's boarder.

I thought that the West does not recognize Palestine and by default it is all Israel. Human rights are universal, regardless of which border you talk about. Does USA put Mexican childreen in cages in the US? No.

West Bank has no Hamas, why should they be treated like a foreign terrorist state? That is already wrong and inhumane.

[Karmadhi]

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

There are also women being sometimes murdered by their husbands in Tel Aviv and in Toronto.

This doesn't make Israel or Canada a murderous tyrrani. I can also play the game of extreme edge cases. 

It is not done by the state and the person that does it gets punished according to the law when caught.

Again, Israel is the only country in the world that trials childreen in military courts.

I sent you a report that they jailed hundreds without a charge.

These are not conspiracy theories, they are facts coming from WESTERN sources.

Accepting that Palestinians are subhuman in Israeli's government eyes would be a good place to start in order to fix this issue.

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi The West bank is full of hamas people especially in Hebron but not only.

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, Raze said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/initial-idf-probe-hostages-were-shirtless-waving-white-flag-when-soldiers-opened-fire/

interesting article, it seems the hostages killed by the IDF were shirtless and waving a white flag, but unfortunately the IDF mistook them for Palestinians and fired at them then pursued one who was fleeing. When they heard him speak Hebrew the commander tried to get them to stop but they didn’t listen time. 

This makes me very suspicious about their reports of killing 6,000 Hamas members. Are they actually confirming they’re from Hamas or just assuming any male who looks 18 or older they killed is Hamas? If they’re literally firing at people even if they’re shirtless unarmed and waving a white flag that very well may be the case.

The IDF is investigating this, what’s different here is it was Israeli’s who were killed so they may actually get in trouble.

Usually if it’s a Palestinian they can just clear themselves. Like this incident where even his fellow IDF testified against him.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

Quote

An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi The military court for juveniles has decided to do deal for itself when some judges and the president of the military court for appeals said they have to stick with the Israeli and international laws, but the military court for juveniles refused to do so.

From "Btselem" site.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

 

[Karmadhi]

John Mearsheimer: Israel is choosing 'apartheid' or 'ethnic cleansing' | The Bottom Line - YouTube

If you want to see an objective take on this conflict.

 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

4 hours ago, zazen said:

The thinking seems to be that Palestinians, in particular Gazans can only be offered a state once they show they are 'developed' enough or 'behave' good enough like Pavlovs dog to be given one.  So what did the Palestinians in the West Bank who 'behaved' better and 'developed' relatively more than their Gazan counterparts get? Were they rewarded even the most fundamental rights or the beginnings of any sovereignty for their good behaviour?

Israel had its chance to show them they mean peace and good faith - but they failed. Instead they got settlement expansion and settler violence increasing to such degrees that any sovereignty becomes almost impossible. So why would Gazan's think they would get something by behaving and developing if on the contrary when they look over to the West Bank they see a clear indication that 'behaving and developing' leads to nothing except the opposite.

In fact, Bibi's view was that the existence of Hamas works in their favour by creating a divide among Palestinians and de-legitimising the Palestinian cause by them being more extreme - and that's exactly how its been used. The conditions Palestinians are put under is extreme which causes them to radicalise, then when they radicalise the excuse is used that they are too radical to be given a state. 

 

   True.

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

25 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

John Mearsheimer: Israel is choosing 'apartheid' or 'ethnic cleansing' | The Bottom Line - YouTube

If you want to see an objective take on this conflict.

 

   Speaking of him:

 

[hundreth]

4 hours ago, zazen said:

The thinking seems to be that Palestinians, in particular Gazans can only be offered a state once they show they are 'developed' enough or 'behave' good enough like Pavlovs dog to be given one.  So what did the Palestinians in the West Bank who 'behaved' better and 'developed' relatively more than their Gazan counterparts get? Were they rewarded even the most fundamental rights or the beginnings of any sovereignty for their good behaviour?

Israel had its chance to show them they mean peace and good faith - but they failed. Instead they got settlement expansion and settler violence increasing to such degrees that any sovereignty becomes almost impossible. So why would Gazan's think they would get something by behaving and developing if on the contrary when they look over to the West Bank they see a clear indication that 'behaving and developing' leads to nothing except the opposite.

In fact, Bibi's view was that the existence of Hamas works in their favour by creating a divide among Palestinians and de-legitimising the Palestinian cause by them being more extreme - and that's exactly how its been used. The conditions Palestinians are put under is extreme which causes them to radicalise, then when they radicalise the excuse is used that they are too radical to be given a state. 

 

I don't believe anyone actually feels the way you're framing it. There are some Israelis for whom there are no conditions which warrant the Palestinians gaining sovereignty. I'm not one of them.

There are others who want to see the Palestinians doing well. When they're doing well, the focus on retribution, hate, anger and violence greatly lessens. Trust is built over time. 

Of course the Israelis have their own side in this to play in terms of a culture and leadership shift on their ends. It feels like you're only able to hold one viewpoint at once. Either all of the responsibility must be placed on the Palestinians, or all of it must be placed on the Israelis. Why are they mutually exclusive?

It's perfectly fine to want to see internal change from both sides. 

[Raze]

 

[lina]

IDF bulldozed displaced wounded civilians... it's becoming more horrifying and gruesome day by day in front of the whole world eyes. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by lina

[jaylimix]

@lina How Pales reacted to incoming bulldozers. 

 

[Nivsch]

On 9.11.2023 at 10:07 PM, DawnC said:

I think that these points are routed in two misconceptions.

Essentially, I think that you believe that the root cause of Palestinian aggression is the situation with Israel, and you think Israel has the power to solve it due to their position of strength. I don't think that's true at all. First of all, you have to consider the possibility that Palestinian society and leadership don't want peace and they don't want anything that will maintain the state of Israel. Westerners have difficulty grasping this, but the reality is that some cultures actually embrace violence and some societies actually value war and even the killing of the innocent. Westerners tend to think that 'everybody just wants to have peace' or 'everybody is like us because we are all human.' This is a fundamental misconception. Yes, we are all human. So was Stalin, and so was Saddam Hussein. The Mongols and Nazis were also human. That doesn't mean that they didn't value genocide or brutal raiding and territorial expansion.

The second thing is, that I know it makes sense to claim that Israel's control radicalizes them, and if Israel didn't control them, this wouldn't happen. I just don't think that's entirely true. And I think there is nothing worse for Palestinian society than self-governing. The situation will deteriorate into something like what happened in Syria or Yemen. Take a look for example at Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. The Palestinian society is no different (in fact, it's worse). Consider also the internal conflict between Hamas and the PLO in 2006. The events of the past 100 years suggest that this is a deeply ingrained aspect of Palestinian society. They exhibit violent behavior, not just towards Israel but towards themselves. And this pattern persists no matter what happens with Israel. Regardless of whether Israel had a state or not, regardless if in was during the occupation or not, before and after Israel left Gaza. This violent mentality has persisted. I think there is nothing that Israel can do, within the realm of reason that will not result in their own existential serious risk, which would change this fundamental issue. I'm not saying it can't change, but there is no indication from the past century that this change is foreseeable. Israel can make wise or unwise policy choices, but the power to fundamentally resolve this issue is beyond their reach. 

The second misconception is the belief that understanding someone's perspective implies the need to appease them. I can understand why Germany descended into Nazism after WWI. The Treaty of Versailles humiliated them, there were dire economic conditions, and some other factors. But that doesn't mean their regime wasn't utterly barbaric and didn't need to be dealt with using force. You see, when someone is at your door with a rifle, intent on brutally killing you and your family, you kill them. Afterwards you can investigate if he had a difficult childhood. That is what any reasonable, life-cherishing actor would do.

Some more specific points:

1.I understand what you're saying. But historically, it wasn't always the case. Jews endured a Holocaust and did not commit such atrocities systematically. 

2. + 3. Israelis have endured ongoing terror attacks since the establishment of their state, including many suicide bombings and tens of thousands of rockets targeted at the civilian population over the years (imagine growing up with the constant sound of rocket alarms). Terrorism has a profound effect on a society (consider 9/11 as an extreme example). For many years, their state also faced a genuine survival challenge. This is not a walk in the park, and it profoundly impacts a society. In any case, in reality, they are actually much less ruthless (much much less) and much more inclined towards seeking peace (much much more). This is not solely a consequence of the power imbalance btw. These differing moral standards were present before 1948.

4. I don't see it that way because I believe that historical decisions made by the Palestinians have led to the current situation, making it nearly unavoidable. In my view, a society that initiated war and subsequently lost it is not in a position to dictate the terms. And when they continue with violence, they shouldn't be viewed as the victims (and thus I don't view the Israelis as the aggressors). 

Anyway, of course I hold Israel to a higher standard because it is a liberal democracy. But I understand the very difficult military situation they are facing, and I recognize Hamas's manipulation of numbers and civilian statistics, as well as militant tactics that deliberately endanger civilians. I also acknowledge that in any conflict, atrocities unfortunately occur. In relative terms, I believe Israel is acting reasonably. They are not intentionally targeting civilians. They are allowing them to evacuate. And yes, they are determined to neutralize Hamas's militant capabilities and secure the release of their hostages. This is war, and it's not a pleasant situation.

+1 ❤

I know this is from a month ago but this must be jumped to the top again and get more credit.

By DawnC 🌅 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

 

[StarStruck]

If any other country would have done this, there would be a massive outrage

Edited December 17, 2023 by StarStruck

[Lila9]

 

[Nivsch]

31 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

 

Exactly. They don't want to ask what most Gazans think because they feel uncomfortable to face the answer.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Nivsch