New War In Israel / Gaza

[jaylimix]

7 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Also many of the brutality like the 40 beheaded babies turned out to be false.

I don't know where the number 40 came from but first responder and morgue worker testimonials says that there were beheaded babies, it is not false.

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, jaylimix said:

You would be dead as a population if you keep drinking dirty water and your population would fall due to deaths and birth miscarriage, but before your bias brain eats up half-truths, you suggest that you first start with the reality on the ground, then extrapolate from there. Source https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/

No, you wouldn’t. You would get poisoned though. And…

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2019-06-25/ty-article/.premium/researchers-gazan-children-face-dangerous-levels-of-lead/0000017f-dbcb-df62-a9ff-dfdf05230000

[Raze]

 

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, jaylimix said:

I don't know where the number 40 came from but first responder and morgue worker testimonials says that there were beheaded babies, it is not false.

Unless it comes from intentional organizations like WHO or UN then do not believe  it.

Israel and USA are not trustworthy sources on this conflict. They have a track record of lies.

[jaylimix]

23 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Unless it comes from intentional organizations like WHO or UN then do not believe  it.

Israel and USA are not trustworthy sources on this conflict. They have a track record of lies.

You got to imagine how the WHO or UN conducts their report.

How do you think they would do it?

Testimonials from first responders and morgue workers, getting registries from hospitals, who are all Israelis, who you have discredited.

[jaylimix]

All leftists need to watch this video.

Woman in this video is (or was) a leftist.

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, zazen said:

Building a desalination plant is a complex process that requires multidisciplinary expertise, multiple components parts and materials needed that could be restricted by the blockade due to their possible dual-use nature, and requires a stable and sufficient energy supply which Gaza lacks. 

Ok but possible, they have the money (unless hamas steal it for itself) and they can get the help of experts from the international community or maybe also Israel. I don't think Israel would refuse to help them if they would behave more pragmatic and show genuine intentions to reduce terrorism. 

Israel wants Gaza to be more moderate and could do far reaching moves to encourage that:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/minister-floats-plan-for-gaza-seaport-island-to-end-blockade/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israel-wants-someone-to-build-a-5-billion-island-off-gaza--for-a-seaport-hotels-airport/2016/06/20/e45ce6fc-7948-4a10-bef3-0f782b030739_story.html

Not to mention that Israel let thousands of Gazans to work in its area before the war.

About the energy, there is an electricity power in Gaza which provide one third of the electricity, and the rest is provided by Israel.

So, sorry, but I am not convinced Gaza couldn't solve this problem if they would not invest all of their efforts on terrorism. Building a successful state is not a simple linear predictable process but it requires efforts and creativity. This is not a simple formula from which we can say exactly what they could or couldn't do. This requires active responsiblity from them and generally to cry less.

About the Wast Bank I believe this is more complicated because Israel is more involved there, as they doesn't have a fully independent state as Gaza, and hence Israel has more responsibility there to help solve the problem. I need to read about it for a while before I will know better and be able to say my opinion about west bank.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

@Nivsch Yes possibly. That's a good initiative for the seaport - again its from a guy who wishes to head the Likud party and become prime minister so it could be empty words in order just to win popularity. Whether they do that is another story and if they did would it be under Israeli control, with what stipulations etc.

Regardless - even if you throw money at Gaza (which can gets into corrupt hands) the core issue is sovereignty and rights. They will use whatever they get to mobilise resistance for their sovereignty and rights. What good would it be to create a nice place to live if one can't leave it. Even if no one wants to travel or have a holiday because they enjoy where they live - that is a basic right. Its demeaning to say they should take more responsibility and 'cry less' and the presumption that they should have to 'earn' or 'prove' themselves to their occupiers why they should have basic human rights and sovereignty - until that is given they will use what they have to resist rather than to create a paradise they can't leave or have limited control over.

Edited December 15, 2023 by zazen

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

@Nivsch Yes possibly. That's a good initiative for the seaport - again its from a guy who wishes to head the Likud party and become prime minister so it could be empty words in order just to win popularity. Whether they do that is another story and if they did would it be under Israeli control, with what stipulations etc.

Regardless - even if you throw money at Gaza (which can gets into corrupt hands) the core issue is sovereignty and rights. They will use whatever they get to mobilise resistance for their sovereignty and rights. What good would it be to create a nice place to live if one can't leave it. Even if no one wants to travel or have a holiday because they enjoy where they live - that is a basic right. Its demeaning to say they should take more responsibility and 'cry less' and the presumption that they should have to 'earn' or 'prove' themselves to their occupiers why they should have basic human rights and sovereignty - until that is given they will use what they have to resist rather than to create a paradise they can't leave or have limited control over.

It's astounding you don't realize that improving conditions in Gaza internally, creating a stable economy, clean water, trade partnerships, the paradise you speak of, etc. IS the most direct route to the Palestinians reaching full sovereignty. 

[hundreth]

Quote

Its demeaning to say they should take more responsibility and 'cry less' and the presumption that they should have to 'earn' or 'prove' themselves to their occupiers why they should have basic human rights and sovereignty - until that is given they will use what they have to resist rather than to create a paradise they can't leave or have limited control over.

This is akin to acknowledging there is a direct way forward to peace, but because of pride and a sense of righteousness the Palestinians should instead engage in an endless resistance war which only leads to pain and bloodshed on both sides.

[zazen]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

It's astounding you don't realize that improving conditions in Gaza internally, creating a stable economy, clean water, trade partnerships, the paradise you speak of, etc. IS the most direct route to the Palestinians reaching full sovereignty. 

What's astounding is the level of arrogance and entitlement of Zionists. What gives them the right to afford Palestinians sovereignty and rights? Is it because their Gods chosen people? Imagine someone came into your house, kicked you down to your basement and didn't let you leave or come up to the kitchen for food or to the garden for a change of scenery and some sun - they then claim to you in your own house ''Show us you can behave well like a Pavlovian dog and develop yourself to the point we think you can have some of your house back'' And they invert and sophistically claim to be the victims and not the aggressors of the predicament they find themselves in.

Zionists frame it as Palestinians not being developed enough or behaving well enough to have rights granted to them when really its that they are impeded from developing and are preoccupied with first securing their fundamental rights. It's the dignity in them that resists that is then gaslighted as them not behaving well. I expect nothing less than for people to resist despite what spiral stage we colour code and paintball them with. This isn't a stage red or green thing but a human thing.

If even a ant or animals resist to survive unwanted death then what of humans who have the conscience to be aware of their undignified treatment, oppression, being taken advantage of through unviable peace proposals and impending conditions of death imposed on them? There's nothing confusing about resistance, in fact it would be confusing for anyone not to. It would be a case study for such a alien reaction or lack of if no resistance occurred. 

The whole framing of the situation is such that Zionists will deny and obfuscate the reality as complicated when it is anything but. Terms like settler colonialism, occupation or apartheid incite a allergic reaction to the ideologically captured zionist ego because they know that in a post-colonial, post-apartheid world any moral or legal ground is lost for their cause and any subsequent reasoning from accepting the reality of those terms is de-legitimised. I can agree that what is complicated is how to get out of this situation with entrenched interests on both sides benefiting from it, but it's definitely not complicated who is the more aggrieved party that is wronged.

I won't resign my moral conscience to a detached enlightenment and moral relativity from some lofty place in the clouds. As Ram Dass said, part of the spiritual journey is honouring the form we are in, being human and getting into the humaness of experience. Understanding all sides is different from standing with all of them - plurality doesn't mean neutrality and in this case, it is clear who stands as the wronged side.

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

This is akin to acknowledging there is a direct way forward to peace, but because of pride and a sense of righteousness the Palestinians should instead engage in an endless resistance war which only leads to pain and bloodshed on both sides.

Israel had its chance to show them they mean peace and good faith - but they failed. Because of their pride and righteousness what did they do with the Palestinians in the West Bank who 'behaved' better and 'developed' relatively more than their Gazan counterparts? Were they rewarded like Pavlovian dogs even the most fundamental rights or the beginnings of any sovereignty for their good behaviour?

Sure, maybe some scraps off the table such as work permits - doubtedly coming from any place of benevolence but more so only to benefit Israel's own economy to access some needed labor and keep the world off their back by being seen as 'doing something' to help.

Instead they got settlement expansion and settler violence increasing to such degrees that any sovereignty becomes almost impossible. So why would Gazan's think they would get something by behaving and developing if on the contrary when they look over to the West Bank they see a clear indication that 'behaving and developing' leads to nothing except the opposite.

Edited December 15, 2023 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

It's astounding you don't realize that improving conditions in Gaza internally, creating a stable economy, clean water, trade partnerships, the paradise you speak of, etc. IS the most direct route to the Palestinians reaching full sovereignty. 

Yeah, but how do you do that when the place is so corrupt, poor, and murderous?

Full Palestinian sovereignty is exactly what the Israeli government is dead-set against. And hey, it's hard to blame them. You'd have to be a saint to give full sovereignty to a serial murderer sharpening his axe.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[hundreth]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, but how do you do that when the place is so corrupt, poor, and murderous?

Full Palestinian sovereignty is exactly what the Israeli government is dead-set against. And hey, it's hard to blame them. You'd be nuts to give full sovereignty to a serial murderer sharpening his axe.

Agreed, it can't happen over night. Which is the main disagreement between @zazen and myself. He'd like to see Palestinians given everything they demand overnight with no conditions immediately. It makes zero sense. I'd like to see relationships develop over time. 

I feel we need a UN peacekeeping force in place for the foreseeable future, until funds reach their intended places, living conditions are improved, relationships and trade partnerships fostered, and a generational culture shift in place on both sides.

I believe in accountability on both sides. Israelis included, who will also require leadership and culture change.

[hundreth]

Quote

What's astounding is the level of arrogance and entitlement of Zionists. What gives them the right to afford Palestinians sovereignty and rights? Is it because their Gods chosen people? Imagine someone came into your house, kicked you down to your basement and didn't let you leave or come up to the kitchen for food or to the garden for a change of scenery and some sun - they then claim to you in your own house ''Show us you can behave well like a Pavlovian dog and develop yourself to the point we think you can have some of your house back'' And they invert and sophistically claim to be the victims and not the aggressors of the predicament they find themselves in.

I'm not going to respond to your entire self righteous and sanctimonious essay. This is how you frame the entire conflict, and that's unfortunate. I don't frame it the same way.

Jews migrated to Palestine, population shifts happen. Jews are no more occupiers in Palestine than Mexicans migrating to the United States. They purchased land legally. You can point to isolated quotes from Zionist leaders with nefarious purposes out of context, but it doesn't change the fact that Jews never forcibly removed Palestinians from their lands before the UN resolution, and the arabs declaring war against the Jews. This isn't the minority report, you can't convict Jews based on the thoughts or isolated quotes from certain Zionists.

Once war breaks out, things happen. I know it makes you upset, but the Palestinians LOST the war. THEY LOST. Now you want to behave as though Israelis are "arrogant" because they hold all the cards. F that. 

[Karmadhi]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015

Apparently Israel crimes continue  

Taking innocent people hostage is only a crime when Hamas does it, not when Israel does it.

@Leo Gura So much for Israel being "democratic".

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

So much for Israel being "democratic".

It is democratic. Democracies do plenty of war crimes.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

@jaylimix Firstly it is quite sad and unfortunate that leftists that are pro peace got killed like that.

But i have a few issues with the video:

1. How would Hamas and whoever did bad things there know that beforehand? Maybe they though they were hardcore Zionists that support Israel brutalizing Palestine, the way many have. Did they have proof that the people they were killed were peace lovers? 

2. She is ignoring the fact that the area where she lived was stolen by Israel. Israel pulling out of Gaza is not "a favour". The whole area she lived is stolen land and of course people will be angry about it.  I notice Israelis tend to think the land belongs to them and then question why the Palestinians hate them. Until they go back to the 1947 borders do not be suprised that Palestinians will be angry at you. Pulling out of Gaza is not enough. 

3. You cannot say 2.2 million people are guilty because of what a few hundred did. It is absurd. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is democratic. Democracies do plenty of war crimes.

A democracy treats everyone equal. Israel does not. Hence it is an oppressive racist regime that is only democratic for Jews. I do not see Sweden or Canada do such things. Arresting people that are anti Israel looks democratic to you? What is democratic to you? Just doing elections? Russia also does that. Does not mean anything.

Israel is not at war with West Bank so it is not a war crime. It is  human right abuse that has been going on there for decades. Not much different from how countries like China oppress their minorities.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@zazen Why the palestinians were never had a state of their own for hunderds of years? I think this is because they are always want "all or nothing", they are always with vitcim mentality and they also have too much self condraticting forces within them. Really they have a problem with their thinking patterns. The main fault is not some demon outside, but within them. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

Just now, Nivsch said:

Why the palestinians were never had a state of their own for hunderds of years? I think this is because they always want "all or nothing", they always with vitcim mentality and have too much self condraticting forces. Really they have a problem in their thinking habit.

Why have Jews been hated for millenia by most of the world? Maybe also they have a problem with how they act? See how racist your logic is.