New War In Israel / Gaza

[Twentyfirst]

This is why you have to go to war with the Israelis. No matter what you tell them they will never give you an inch or take responsibility and they will always play victim and gaslight. The only way to get their attention or the worlds attention is to kill them and even then they misperceive that and think they are victims. It's easy to get frustrated on how Israelis have such bias in a forum then just stop paying attention to the forum but when their bias actually affects you and your entire lineage you can't just ignore that

[Danioover9000]

   We need some Lawrence of Arabia to come back and sort this conflict out:

 

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas's evils are quite obvious to any reasonable person.

I do not want to defend Hamas here, they are messed up. But I have seen more and more proof that many of the people at the festival were killed by Israeli friendly fire and some of the Israeli civilains were killed by the IDF due to them panicking. 

Also many of the brutality like the 40 beheaded babies turned out to be false.

If these claims are true then things were not as bad as it first seemed.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

33 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I do not want to defend Hamas here, they are messed up. But I have seen more and more proof that many of the people at the festival were killed by Israeli friendly fire and some of the Israeli civilains were killed by the IDF due to them panicking. 

Also many of the brutality like the 40 beheaded babies turned out to be false.

If these claims are true then things were not as bad as it first seemed.

   Again all due to propaganda campaigns and polarizing views. Obviously the news from either side of a conflict will make each other look extra bad.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

I do not want to defend Hamas here, they are messed up. But I have seen more and more proof that many of the people at the festival were killed by Israeli friendly fire and some of the Israeli civilains were killed by the IDF due to them panicking. 

Also many of the brutality like the 40 beheaded babies turned out to be false.

If these claims are true then things were not as bad as it first seemed.

If you want to attach to conspiracy to feel better and more comfortable within your mind you can, but this is only makes me take your another claims and prestigious words with which you speak out about other palestinian issues less seriously and give it a lesser weight.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Frankly, the situation is asymmetrical. Hamas's evils are quite obvious to any reasonable person. But Israeli evils are much more sneaky and sophisticated. Israel is a lot better at bullshitting than Hamas is. It's hard to bullshit you way out of a terrorist attack. But Israel's entire policy is full of so much deception, BS, and bias in all sorts of subtle ways that requires lots of intelligence to detect.

My intelligence goes to where it is most needed.

I don't deny that Israel (as a state, government, army, and culture) has dark sides. The criticism is valid, and there is room to address it.

However, the discussion here often becomes disproportionate, demonizing Israel while overlooking the flaws and mistakes of the other side in the conflict and their responsibility in this conflict.

It's not obvious to everyone here that Hamas is a terror organization, apparently.

Some users deny the severity of the massacre, ridicule it, compare Hamas to the IDF, dispute Hamas being a terror organization, reject the responsibility of Hamas and other terrorist groups for the poor and radicalized conditions of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, justify the massacre, and spread misinformation about it.

 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

However, the discussion here often becomes disproportionate, demonizing Israel while overlooking the flaws and mistakes of the other side in the conflict and their responsibility in this conflict.

When Israel had shut off food, water, and fuel to Gaza and already killed thousands in bombs you said Israeli’s have it worse than Gazans. Most Gazans didn’t even have access to clean drinking water before the war. It’s painfully clear you don’t view Palestinian lives as equally important and this bias is so blatant it should make anyone considering your perspective think twice. You haven’t been addressing pro Palestinian bias, just spreading your own.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Raze

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Some users deny the severity of the massacre, ridicule it, compare Hamas to the IDF, dispute Hamas being a terror organization, reject the responsibility of Hamas and other terrorist groups for the poor and radicalized conditions of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, justify the massacre, and spread misinformation about it.

You are just projecting, as usual. That’s what you do about Gaza and Gazans. Such little empathy or care. Cold as ice. 
 

Even Leo is calling you out. 
 

so you probably feel picked on now and can press play on your victim narrative. 
 

 

[Nivsch]

@Raze Come ON. This happened only in the first hours, and food and water you can buy for many days until there is a real deficiency. You are just judging now and in an evil way a country who just 5 minutes before that went through a trauma.

About the second part with the water before the war, if you can send me a link I will read it carefully.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze Come ON. This happened only in the first hours, and food and water you can buy for many days until there is a real deficiency. You are just judging now and in an evil way a country who just 5 minutes before that went through a trauma.

About the second part with the water before the war, if you can send me a link I will read it carefully.

https://www.anera.org/priorities/water-access/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/jul/24/rula-jebreal/rula-jebreal-90-people-gaza-dont-have-access-even-/

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

I don't deny that Israel (as a state, government, army, and culture) has dark sides. The criticism is valid, and there is room to address it.

However, the discussion here often becomes disproportionate, demonizing Israel while overlooking the flaws and mistakes of the other side in the conflict and their responsibility in this conflict.

👍

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@Raze Ok. Why can't Gaza build desalination plants just like Israel did?

Money is not their problem. Unless of course, hamas takes the necassary money for himself.

They have access to sea water through their coastal strip.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

When Israel had shut off food, water, and fuel to Gaza and already killed thousands in bombs you said Israeli’s have it worse than Gazans. Most Gazans didn’t even have access to clean drinking water before the war. It’s painfully clear you don’t view Palestinian lives as equally important and this bias is so blatant it should make anyone considering your perspective think twice. You haven’t been addressing pro Palestinian bias, just spreading your own.

There was the Oslo Agreement in which Israel provides water for the West Bank and Gaza.

If they deliberately break the agreement, as they did on October 7, Israel would pause the water supply.

If Gaza really suffers from a water shortage, despite the money poured into Gaza and the billions for leaders like Mashal, Haniya, and Abbas, they could buy water from Israel, as Jordan has been doing for years, instead of investing in weapons and real estate in Qatar and Turkey.

Apparently, weapons are considered more important than water in their priorities.

Gaza (Hamas and their supporters, those who were happy about dead Israelis) wants to harm innocent Israelis while expecting free water from them. They can't have both. Sorry, life doesn't work that way. 

It's not that I don't care about Palestinians lacking water, it's just that your information seems narrow and biased, not fully loyal to reality and lack in many important details.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

59 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

👍

♥️

[DawnC]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Frankly, the situation is asymmetrical. Hamas's evils are quite obvious to any reasonable person. But Israeli evils are much more sneaky and sophisticated. Israel is a lot better at bullshitting than Hamas is. It's hard to bullshit you way out of a terrorist attack. But Israel's entire policy is full of so much deception, BS, and bias in all sorts of subtle ways that requires lots of intelligence to detect.

My intelligence goes to where it is most needed.

Of course, it is more mature and conscientious to be aware of Israel's biases and deceptions. This provides a much clearer understanding of what is happening, both regarding the war and the overall situation. Adopting a 'Go Israel' attitude with zero regard for its actions is childish.

In general, it is far better to understand the complexities of the situation rather than engaging in childish or obvious side-picking. Nevertheless, I believe you may benefit from asking yourself: are there times when the focus should not be on complexities but rather on choosing sides? It may be helpful to consider that some may criticize your 'I'll explain the more complicated matter' approach from a perspective that does not dismiss the complexity but rather understands it, yet consciously chooses to ascend beyond it when it comes to action and policy suggestions.

The most obvious example, of course, would be Nazi Germany. Was it more critical to analyze and explain not-so-obvious American biases and deceptions, or were intelligence and spiritual resources more importantly directed towards clearly stating - this evil has no place in humanity?

Be careful not to demonize bias so harshly - it is bias that keeps (some of) us preferring peace and happiness rather than war and suffering. It is bias that makes some of us despise genocide and other forms of utter evil. Don't stray too far from this world. spirituality and the investigation of biases should not be an excuse to sit on the fence. 

Contemplate - why was Biden's first speech so pro-Israeli? Does he not understand the biases of Israel? Does he not have a difficult time and relation with Netanyahu and the Israeli government? I believe his speech reflected a deep historical consciousness and awareness, and the profound understanding that as humans who share somewhat similar value systems, there are times when complexity and subtleties are not the important elements in our statements and actions. The crucial thing is a clear and unwavering approach against evil. This is true for conscious leadership - and even more so for spiritual ones.

Another, simpler point, that I'm not entirely certain you grasp: What do you believe upholds the world order? What role does the US play in maintaining that order? What alternatives exist? If you fully comprehend these alternatives, you might be satisfied with the use of your tax dollars. Israel stands out as one of the few dependable allies of the US and one of the only ones that doesn't require US troops to engage in direct combat for them - and can actually provide for US global interests. Dismissing this as merely the influence of Israel-favored lobbies overlooks a crucial and genuine global interest, and a US national one.

Edited December 14, 2023 by DawnC

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

If you want to attach to conspiracy to feel better and more comfortable within your mind you can, but this is only makes me take your another claims and prestigious words with which you speak out about other palestinian issues less seriously and give it a lesser weight.

I am not taking a position here. Just saying that there exists other perspective on this matter. I am not saying that these things DID NOT happen.

However the 40 beheaded babies I think was confirmed to be false. The rest of things like IDF shooting at people at the festival is currently just a theory circulating with some proof attached to it. I am not claiming it is true or not.

You Israelis make equally outrageous claims about IDF's "surgical bombing" so no need to get triggered.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

There was the Oslo Agreement in which Israel provides water for the West Bank and Gaza.

If they deliberately break the agreement, as they did on October 7, Israel would pause the water supply.

''The so-called security barrier that Israel has been building on the West Bank since 2002 further encroaches on Palestinian land. Land-grabbing and peace-making do not go together: it is one or the other. Oslo is essentially a land-for-peace deal. By expanding settlements all Israeli governments, Labour as well as Likud, contributed massively to its breakdown.

The rate of settlement growth in the West Bank and Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem is staggering. At the end of 1993 there were 115,700 Israeli settlers in the occupied territories. Today there are over 500'000.''

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Apparently, weapons are considered more important than water in their priorities.

Apparently, land grabbing is considered more important than peace and keeping the possibility of a two state solution open.

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Why can't Gaza build desalination plants just like Israel did?

Money is not their problem. Unless of course, hamas takes the necassary money for himself.

They have access to sea water through their coastal strip.

No doubt Hamas leaders are corrupt and take a portion of the money for themselves. Building a desalination plant is a complex process that requires multidisciplinary expertise, multiple components parts and materials needed that could be restricted by the blockade due to their possible dual-use nature, and requires a stable and sufficient energy supply which Gaza lacks. 

I hope they have access to the gas off their coastal strip or is that Israels? I hope West Bank have access to their water or is that Israels?

''In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army.'' - Amnesty International 

Edited December 15, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

22 hours ago, jaylimix said:

Apartheid is within one country, not between two countries.

A blockade from a genocidal neighbor is not apartheid, apartheid happens only within a single country itself.

You call it a blockade between two countries, it's not rocket science.

There's currently only one country called Israel as they deny the other side one. Apartheid simply means a two tiered legal system which is discriminatory. Israel has a military court for Palestinians in the West Bank that operate under military law rather than civilian law and have jurisdiction over them.

Which country do you know that doesn't have its own courts, military/police, capital or control over its borders, air and seas? Palestinians in West Bank don't have their own legal system but an Israeli one administering it. Its not rocket science. 

Even the smallest countries - Vatican, Monaco and a random island called Nauru have their own legal system, police and control / sovereignty of their borders, land, air and seas. Vatican - a land area of 121 acres can be afforded those rights but Gaza alone which is 11'000 acres or 100x more than Vatican can't.

 

22 hours ago, jaylimix said:

Nuance is important here, and what is it?

Nuance is important and should be used to apply the definition of words and not deny their realities for example of words like occupation, apartheid or ethnic cleansing.

I think what's breaking down communication is people focusing too much on the exact meanings of words and playing semantics.  If you take words too literally, they don't express what's intended and if you stretch their meanings too much to fit anything you want making them metaphorical it's absurd also.

For example, if I say I feel "imprisoned" by Hollywood's culture because I live in LA, am I actually in prison? No, it's a metaphor to show how much it affects me as I'm surrounded by it. If I say I feel "imprisoned" by LA's laws, that's closer to reality because not following them can lead to actual prison. 

Occupation for example doesn't mean the most literal definition of the word like when you go to the toilet and it says occupied by someone sitting on it - Israeli's don't have to be sitting on Palestinians laps in Gaza eating Baklava to claim occupation or defecating on their land - they can be occupied externally by controls of their border, sea and airspace depriving, dehumanising and un-dignifying them.

Instead of Israel occupying Palestinians in a way that deprives them of their sovereignty and dignity they should try empathetically occupying their point of view and their hearts to de-radicalise and de-traumatise them of trauma they caused them. Not mine and dig within their own traumatic history to justify the trauma and death they are causing - death the stench of which it will take all the perfumes of Arabia to dispel.

Edited December 15, 2023 by zazen

[Raze]

 

[jaylimix]

5 hours ago, Raze said:

Most Gazans didn’t even have access to clean drinking water before the war. 

You would be dead as a population if you keep drinking dirty water and your population would fall due to deaths and birth miscarriage, but before your bias brain eats up half-truths, you suggest that you first start with the reality on the ground, then extrapolate from there. Source https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/

Edited December 15, 2023 by jaylimix