New War In Israel / Gaza

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Could you explain with at least some key examples?

For example, Israel has a powerful lobbying arm in the US which has a strong influence on silencing people who point out Israel bias or devilry. And that's just the visible tip of the iceberg. They extert even more power behind the scenes to skew and distort US foreign policy to suit themselves. Israel almost successfully lobbied the Bush administration to invade Iran. This is very sneaky shit.

There are many examples of Israeli war propaganda you can find online. The Israeli goverment has little respect for truth. Which makes peace impossible.

What I have noticed from watching a lot of interviews with Zionists is that their whole worldview is shamelessly self-biased to the point that you can't have a truthful conversation with them because they got their agenda to promote. This makes peace impossible and it leads to stuff like war crimes.

The ultimate problem is that these religious Zionists have chosen loyalty to being Jewish over loyalty to truth. This must lead to evil. Evil is falsehood. Truth is more important than Zion.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[BlueOak]

@Leo Gura

It should be noted that the Saudi's money is also invasive in world politics, and also was as pro-war with Iran in that period. To widen it further, almost any oil-producing nation, or any nation with enough financial clout has a large lever on power. Though i've seen some of the financials and Israel's interests have a huge amount of money invested in candidates.

I would say to you, the same thing you say to me, when I talk about the level of corporate influence.

That's how it is. It's how it's always been.

Then I would say it's not an ideal state of affairs. It creates a disconnect between what people want to what they end up getting, but the worst part is its cloaked in a veil of secrecy. If people could see why something occurred, it would go some way to grounding them in reality, rather than us constantly chasing rainbows or pots of gold that don't exist, and then wondering why they don't happen.

So many people don't try, or don't care, because they chase things that are not true in the first place, because they are lied to about how the world operates, then when they don't get them over and over and over again it naturally means they start to give up.

 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

It should be noted that the Saudi's money is also invasive in world politics, and also was as pro-war with Iran in that period. To widen it further, almost any oil-producing nation, or any nation with enough financial clout has a large lever on power. Though i've seen some of the financials and Israel's interests have a huge amount of money invested in candidates.

I would say to you, the same thing you say to me, when I talk about the level of corporate influence.

That's how it is. It's how it's always been.

That is a fair point, however the Jewish lobby is extra powerful and Zionist sneakiness and manipulations go far beyond run-of-the-mill money in politics. It's not just about the money.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The ultimate problem is that these religious Zionists have chosen loyalty to being Jewish over loyalty to truth. This must lead to evil. Evil is falsehood. Truth is more important than Zion.

religious Zionists are like 20% of the population and are really diverse. You have people who have crazy extremist and racist worldviews but also reasonable people. Like Naftali Bennett who was prime minister for a short while. He was demonized by Western media as a "right-wing extremist" but in reality, he was a highly democratic leader with a lot of integrity and moderation. Even serving in a coalition with an Arab party for the first time in history. 

If I was the Prime minister of Israel I would rein in the extremists settlers by expelling them from the West Bank. If you can't behave yourself you don't get to live around Arabs. But on the other hand, I also would really appreciate the strength and contributions of the religious zionist community. Because they serve in the army, they study, they work and have big families strengthening the state. We can also learn from them. 

 

[Vrubel]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is a fair point, however the Jewish lobby is extra powerful and Zionist sneakiness and manipulations go far beyond run-of-the-mill money in politics. It's not just about the money.

Is it possible that people can be naturally sympathetic to Jews, and not always seek out some kind of "sneaky" manipulations?  Different people have different values. More conservative people will often feel a click with Israel.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

To add to above regarding funding - it was just today that Saudi announced bidding to become majority shareholder of Heathrow Airport (UK's busiest airport). Whilst Saudi definitely wields its money - it's how it does so. It seems to be diversifying its assets away from dependence on commodities whilst Israel and the lobby directs it towards lining political pockets and its political agenda that support the status quo of Israel being discriminatory, dehumanising and un-dignifying to the Palestinians at its best if it can even be called as such - and destabilising the region at its worst.

Edited December 14, 2023 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

religious Zionists are like 20% of the population and are really diverse.  

The self-bias of Israelis goes far beyond just those extreme hard-right Zionists. The force of nationalism is very strong across the whole population at this point and it skews government policy towards evil.

21 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Is it possible that people can be naturally sympathetic to Jews, and not always seek out some kind of "sneaky" manipulations?  Different people have different values. 

Sure, but there is nothing about Jews that makes them more important or sympathetic than other ethnicities. One of the problems that fuels this conflict is that people are over-compensating with sympathy for Jews due to The Holocaust. But ironically this enables genocide-like behavior towards Palestinians.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The self-bias of Israelis goes far beyond just those extreme hard-right Zionists. The force of nationalism is very strong across the whole population at this point and it skews government policy towards evil.

Sure, but there is nothing about Jews that makes them more important or sympathetic than other ethnicities. One of the problems that fuels this conflict is that people are over-compensating with sympathy for Jews due to The Holocaust. But ironically this enables genocide-like behavior towards Palestinians.

@Vrubel

The political centre of gravity in Israel has moved so far right which makes it come across as far right to the West. 

The West green lighting Israel's actions up to now has partly been a way to wash away its guilt of its historic treatment of Jews which climaxed as the Holocaust - but you can't wash away and clean your conscience with more blood (of the Palestinians) which only causes further guilt.

That limit can now be seen with the addition of New Zealand, Australia and Canada joining in on the UN vote to support ceasefire just this week and Biden's latest comment. Tipping point has arrived.

Bennet doesn't agree that Israel are even occupying and thinks that Palestinians already have a state - Gaza. Laughable. That's why he's seen as far right. The first few minutes below:

And the below aren’t interviews of Israeli settlers but the general Israeli society:

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Bush administration to invade Iran. This is very sneaky shit.

I understand. I will just add my personal feeling about it.

Iran is grasped as a very big demon in the eyes of Israelis, and thats because Iran is really the big brain that stands behind and funds Hezbollah, hamas, and the palestinian suicide bombing in busses and restaurants Israel is traumatized by from the early 00's, and also terror activities abroad against Israelis. 

During the recent decade Iran is developing a nuclear weapon at the exact same time when it declares more and more publicly that it wants to eliminate Israel from the map.

A careful ear, when knows the past events when everybody were sure nothing really bad will happen (and we all know what happened) will take seriously this threat.

The fear of Israel from Iran is very serious, and from that I can understand why Israel felt that urge to convince bush to do something that maybe will remove this untolerable nuclear threat and maybe will cause their regime to fall by the way.

Also there are reasonable claims about the long term iranian's regime plan to encompass Israel physically in order to one day be able to treaten its existance. in fact, thats what middle eastern experts think that Iran wanted to do in the 7.10 surprise but hamas decided to do deal for itself and to do it alone what made Iran to be extremely in rage on it after oct 7th. I can add links on that.

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

with Zionists is that their whole worldview is shamelessly self-biased to the point that you can't have a truthful conversation with them

I agree that this is indeed hapenning, and there are a lot of close-minded Israelis especially from the right wing.

But at the same time It hurts me a bit that people don't see the other sector of citizens we have here from the center-left camp (~40% and maybe more of the population) with them a deep conversation is really possible.

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This makes peace impossible and it leads to stuff like war crimes

Yes as long as the right wing is almost homogeneously controlls Israel, this is impossible.

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The ultimate problem is that these religious Zionists have chosen loyalty to being Jewish over loyalty to truth.

I agree about that.

I can say that just couple of years ago I was more anti religion, but then I started to see that many of the "lite" religions actually have some depth in them and a sense of warmth when they relate to you, that this is harder to find among the hard-core secular ones which is interesting. But I emphasize this is probably mostly only among the 'lite' or moderate religious and of course not among the more hard-core religious that on them I agree with you.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure, but there is nothing about Jews that makes them more important or sympathetic than other ethnicities.

That's true but it also depends on values. Obviously, Jews can be bad and stupid. But generally speaking, Jews are a small people (15 mil worldwide) that contribute disproportionately to the societies they live in. Jews generally uphold the culture of the country they live in and make for high-quality communities and societies. 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Jews generally uphold the culture of the country they live in and make for high-quality communities and societies. 

A lot of folk would beg to differ on that. But I get ya.

If someone wants to love Jews, no problem, unless that love turns into a blank check to oppress Arabs, which is what happens in practice.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

10 minutes ago, zazen said:

Bennet doesn't agree that Israel are even occupying and thinks that Palestinians already have a state - Gaza. Laughable. That's why he's seen as far right. The first few minutes below:

When he was prime minister he put his silly religious views aside and served as a first among equals for the benefit of the country with incredible integrity.

[zazen]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

That's true but it also depends on values. Obviously, Jews can be bad and stupid. But generally speaking, Jews are a small people (15 mil worldwide) that contribute disproportionately to the societies they live in. Jews generally uphold the culture of the country they live in and make for high-quality communities and societies. 

Overall correct. It just doesn't justify the disproportionate response or treatment of another people. Indians are disproportionately in positions of power in Tech companies in US and also add to the quality of communities but that doesn't allow their ethnicity back home to then be disproportionate and discriminatory in their treatment of any other group be it a minority (muslims) or one different to them.

[Vrubel]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If someone wants to love Jews, no problem, unless that love turns into a blank check to oppress Arabs, which is what happens in practice.

Nobody is giving a blank check to Israel. America and the West even while supporting and understanding Israel are also very critical and a "blank check" is not a viable position even for rightwing standards. 
 

 

20 minutes ago, zazen said:

Overall correct. It just doesn't justify the disproportionate response or treatment of another people. Indians are disproportionately in positions of power in Tech companies in US and also add to the quality of communities but that doesn't allow their ethnicity back home to then be disproportionate and discriminatory in their treatment of any other group be it a minority (muslims) or one different to them.

I get your point but many people (based on values) will be biased toward Hindus out of sympathy for their culture which is generally more peaceful and less extreme than the Islamic one. There is a reason there are hundreds of millions of Muslims living in India and no Hindus living in Pakistan and Bangladesh. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Nobody is giving a blank check to Israel. America and the West are very critical and a "blank check" is not a viable position even for rightwing standards. 

I would argue Biden's is giving a blank check. This is more true than the opposite. I have not seen any serious threat to pull funding.

By an objective standard it is amazing how soft America is on Israeli devilry. Nearly a blank check. This is not how a neutral arbiter would act. This American bias also fuels the conflict.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

I would argue Biden's is giving a blank check. This is more true than the opposite. I have not seen any serious threat to pull funding.

They don't want to throw Israel under the bus while it's fighting a war but the pressure is definitely there. America plays a big role in moderating Israel.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

They don't want to throw Israel under the bus while it's fighting a war but the pressure is definitely there. America plays a big role in moderating Israel.

That is contradicted by the evidence. There is a video online of Netanyahu in a private meeting talking about how easy it is to manipulate the Americans to go along with whatever he wants. He brags about it. And from everything I've seen coming out of the White House, this is true.

I, as a voter, am sick of the White House writing Netanyahu blank checks.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

That is contradicted by the evidence. There is a video online of Netanyahu in a private meeting talking about how easy it is to manipulate the Americans to go along with whatever he wants. He brags about it.

Haha obviously, a guy with such an ego will skew the true power dynamics at play. He has done a lot of damage to Israel in regard to its perception in the West.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a video online of Netanyahu in a private meeting talking about how easy it is to manipulate the Americans

Yes Netanyahu is a trump-like manipulator in a way most Israelis acknowledge and almost half of them are against him also because of this.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The force of nationalism is very strong across the whole population

But the feeling of fear and survival burden too.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

   This is a good video by Beau:

   I'd disagree on the part of waiting for Palestinian government to govern West Bank and Gaza, when Israel's Zionists and Lukid party keep on undermining their ability to govern and become a sovereign state of themselves.