New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Those of you who live in Israel, just be grateful that you live without being carpet bombed with US munitions.

I am incredibly grateful for being born in the situation I am. I am also grateful to be born Jewish and to share deeply in the pain of 7/10. It reconnected me with the Holocaust and the pogroms before that as something no longer of the "past and outside current reality", now I realize it's all part of the same reality, the same consciousness. It's a brutal aspect of life I was in denial about and tried to run away from.

This all shows that 'strength' is the core virtue of life. Without strength, there is no life.

Keep in mind I am not making any argument here I just describe my own internal experience. Now for the opinion part: 

I don't think Israel should wipe off Gaza or make civilians needlessly suffer but there shouldn't be a ceasefire either until Hamas is defeated and brought to justice. I think Israel is showing it can achieve this goal though it will take a little time. If Israel doesn't remove Hamas and they commit these kinds of massacres again and again then Israel's response will get even harsher because at some point it will justify a real fucking genocide. 
 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You spread self-bias with no remorse.

Much of it is standing up against lies and the incredible bias on the opposite side. Let's not pretend there isn't any there. 

For those who care about objective thinking can use the Israeli perspective as valuable puzzle pieces. 
 

1 hour ago, zazen said:

I will do a gratitude meditation with just that in mind but would like to point out also to Israel and any Isrealis to be grateful to have allies and friends that come to you with good intentions and are not rolling and drowned in the emotions your people are under that blinds your bloodshot vision and fogs your brains in the fog of war.

It can take a dispassionate look at the problems of reality to come to the most compassionate solutions - though those busy in vengeance and war will reframe this otherwise. When the Isreals foot reflexively straightens and pushes down on the accelerator of retaliation and revenge locked into place - be grateful for that friend who will come to dislodge your foot and push the down the brake to divert your nations and peoples course away from the cliff that your actions can not only drag yourselves off of but the regions - maybe even the world including that very friend.

Wise words. I think a reasonable compromise would be: Israel can finish Hamas but must do everything to protect and supply civilians. 

 

34 minutes ago, Nabd said:

How can you type that without the doing the bare minimum of just applying it on yourself?

Just imagine it as a Palestinian. They will say to you: you are extremely naive and should be grateful that you still live as a colonial settler.

I thank God I am born to the comfort and freedom I have. I have nothing but goodwill for Arabs who condemn violence and are pacified like Israeli Arabs. I will choose their side over the ultra-nationalistic racist side.

34 minutes ago, Nabd said:

...and from a Palestinian side its absurd they are being punished for a crime they did not commit.

It's the cosmic ripples of history, It's tragic. We must move forward but admittedly it won't happen in the short or middle term. I can only be optimistic for the long term. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

4 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Its possible to move forward when an Israeli government acknowledge that Israel is a colonial country and actually admit the crimes against natives and that the Brits offered them a chance to act as a spearhead and they took it. Israel is here to stay but not in this form.

If someone is born in Israel then thats his homeland but the first generation were colonists. They were terrified from the Nazis and many were innocent no doubt about that but just like Turkey refuse to admit its genocidie against Syriacs and Armenians, Israel also can't admit it and till they admit it officially and issue an apology and a plan for peace then expect only blood and stabbings and more inflitrations like the last one.

Even if we don't consider the Jewish historical and 'spiritual' connection to the land. You must understand that Israelis consider themselves native. When you live and defend a piece of land you consider it your own. 
 

 

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I glad this is over and ended in 2014 with the help of the great Justice minister Tzipi Livn

It ended because Western Media and human right organization made a big deal about it and many reports putting pressure on Israel. But also I read a bit about Tzipi and she seems way more reasonable than the minister of justice recently who called palestinians "little snakes". So there is hope for Israel once this toxic racist current government gets replaced by more sensible people like Tzipi. A far left wing government would help Israel a lot regarding Palestine I think. The hippie peace loving type of people.

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

The thing is that these organizations' data can't be trusted.

Especially Save the Children, there is a lot of critisicm about the credibility of their data and about their true intentions in protecting and advocating for children. They claim to be not biased by they are biased as hell

I sent you many sources. And none of them are Arab sources. If you do not accept any of them it shows more about your biases than anything else. You can also do research yourself, i found plenty of other sources which I did not send here. So plenty of information about it. At least the other guy @Nivsch is objective enough to recognize such stuff happened. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Why is Israel collecting money from the US?

I saw that the senate blocked aid to Israel AND Ukraine due to the border issue.

Do you think USA should fund Ukraine anymore? 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

A far left wing government would help Israel a lot regarding Palestine I think. The hippie peace loving type of people.

No, but A more centrist one would. Give a little credit to Israel's mainstream which is not so stupid.

This is not about being more and more left, but rather to know when to be more left and when to be more right.

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

At least the other guy @Nivsch is objective enough to recognize such stuff happened.

Look it is difficult to me, but I can't cancel this possibility when three non arab links say this.

But I still doubt the ages, because children can also be 16-18 when they are physically developed and can be dangerous to IDF/civilians just like adults.

Would Israel agree officialy to do those kind of things to 12 yo kids? I can't believe it. Maybe only if some junior prisoners would dealth their own justice and decide to do what they want.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Do you think USA should fund Ukraine anymore?

That's a very difficult question. Impossible to answer without having detailed intelligence about the war, casualty rates, supply stocks, etc.

The US military needs to do a very sober assessment of what Ukraine's chances of winning the war are and make a decision based off that.

It also depends on what Putin's demands are. If his demands are not too outrageous then...

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Would Israel agree officialy to do those kind of things to 12 yo kids

They have shot kids for throwing stones younger than 12 so it is not not surprising. 

Also more sources https://truthout.org/articles/israel-has-10000-palestinian-prisoners-and-faces-allegations-of-rampant-abuse/

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

No, but A more centrist one would

Why not some hardcore leftists? Europe has them.

Maybe you need them to balance the extreme right wing that is right now.

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura Thank you for your response  

[Karmadhi]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

Interesting article showing that Israel is responsible for Hamas more than people think.

[Nivsch]

38 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

They have shot kids for throwing stones younger than 12 so it is not not surprising. 

I understand this happens sometimes, but you can't take every extreme case and throw it so loosely on "Israel".

There are also very violent settlers.

You will be surprised how less severe cases has caused soldiers to be eliminated from IDF (I hope I use the right word in english but you understand me) and even cause a public uproar.

See for example Elor Azaria's case who shot in the head of an already neutralized terrorist what didn't prevent the whole center-left camp (represents more than 40% of the population) to uprise against the soldier because they felt instinctively that this is not in our values to shoot an already neutralized man's (even if he is a terrorist) head.

Israel society is more advanced than what people think and maybe would want it to be. You can read it all by yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdel_Fattah_al-Sharif

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nivsch

[Girzo]

22 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Israel society is more advanced than what people think and maybe would want it to be.

It's not about the level of development of average citizens. You have a certain government. Just like Russians have a certain government. In fact, these situations are not much different. Israel is like Russia in many ways in this conflict.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Girzo

[jaylimix]

@zazen All of the materials you consumed are all from very Pro Pale accounts, which I also consume. Do you even consume Pro Israel accounts, you know, so that your mind is less bias ?

[jaylimix]

43 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I understand this happens sometimes, but you can't take every extreme case and throw it so loosely on "Israel".

There are also very violent settlers.

No matter how bad the settlers are, they are no where as bad as the Pales.

Here in this video you can see the settlers reaction to Oct 7, and what was their reaction?

Damaged properties, that's it!

Imagine the roles were reverse, nuff said.

ABC is Pro Pale in case you try to pull a trick up your sleeve and says my content favors Israel.

Edited December 14, 2023 by jaylimix

[jaylimix]

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

This satire is spot on 😳

 

Just FYI for you guys who do not listen to Asian music, the music/lyrics is from Lisa of the k-pop group Blackpink.

 

[jaylimix]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Lila9 Israel has 100x more money than all of Palestine. Why is Israel collecting money from the US?

I will start kicking people out of the politics sub-forum who cannot demonstrate a basic check on their biases.

The goal of our work here is to minimize self-bias when we look at reality.

When congress signs away say 10 billion to Israel, isn't this in the form of military hardware, which Israel is unable to produce in-house ?

[Danioover9000]

   Can we observe a 7 day break from this thread? We really have some nut cases here derailing and trolling the thread, instigating with little regard.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, jaylimix said:

When congress signs away say 10 billion to Israel, isn't this in the form of military hardware, which Israel is unable to produce in-house ?

No idea. But that's still worse than giving donations to humanitarian aid for Gazans.

What people don't realize is that a large chunk of huminatarian aid in 3rd world countries goes to bribe local warlords and political leaders. This is not unique to Palestine, this is true in all 3rd world countries because that's the nature of corruption. In a 3rd world country, if you want to donate a bag of rice to some poor kids, you will have to donate a few bags of rice to the local warlord first. And that local warlord will be a billionaire.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[jaylimix]

8 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Sure there is. Same reasons blacks were not allowed to sit next to whites on buses in the past.

The reason is racism and dehumanization of Palestinians.

It is not rocket science.

Nuance is important here, and what is it?

Apartheid is within one country, not between two countries.

A blockade from a genocidal neighbor is not apartheid, apartheid happens only within a single country itself.

You call it a blockade between two countries, it's not rocket science.

[jaylimix]

4 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Can we observe a 7 day break from this thread? We really have some nut cases here derailing and trolling the thread, instigating with little regard.

I don't see anybody trolling in this thread, I can see everybody has put effort into their posts, even when I disagree with them.

[jaylimix]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Those of you who live in Israel, just be grateful that you live without being carpet bombed with US munitions. 

When you used terminology which falsely describes the situation, you are not being non-bias enough.

Carpet bombing - Dropping barrages of bombs from an airplane hitting everything below on it's flight path, see the attached photo.

This is NOT what the IAF (airforce) is doing, what they do are targeted surgical strikes.

There are lots of guided missile surgical strikes which leveled north Gaza, but still it's NOT indiscriminate carpet bombing.

Edited December 14, 2023 by jaylimix