New War In Israel / Gaza

[BlueOak]

@Lila9

 

55 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

I don't agree that this definition of ethnical cleansing applies either, or at least, I would say that it's too early to use this term.

I don't think that you can call evacuation of people to save their lives as ethnical cleansing. Would you prefer them to be bombed and killed instead?

And we haven't know yet how this evacuation would end, chances they will return to this territory, not immediately thought, but it's very likely.

It seems that people seek to use these big words, and when they actually use this, they do that in a disproportionate manner.

The thing is that there are attempts to bring hostages back through military operation. A very few of them were successful, others not. It's not easy and it puts the hostages lives at risk.

Some people who returned back from the captivity said that they hoped the military wouldn't try to save them through military operation because they constantly were near Hamas terrorists who threatened to kill them if they suspected the military is too close. 

Yes I agree that Israel has some responsibility in Hamas radicalization, there are some chain events which helped to Hamas become more radical, but this is not necessarily negative chain events like puting more pressure on Palestinians or worsening their conditions, like many people in your position probably assume.

In fact it was the quite opposite, the letinant approach of Israel, the indifference to the terror, the naivity at the beginning of Hamas when it only formed itself, are the mistakes and the chain events which led to this radicalization.

Many stupid and naive mistakes of the Israeli government, the pride and the underestimation of the capabilities and intentions of their enemy.

This is a classic mistake, the underestimation of the enemy.

Israel has responsibility, chain events Israel was part of but not the chain events that you might think it was, as I explained above.

In a war there are no winners, only losers, and we are all losers, both the Israelies and the Palestinians, of this conflict.

We are the victims of our Karma, our mistakes, our bad choices, beliefs and same are the Palestinians, they are the victims of their Karma, their mistakes, their bad choices and beliefs.

This is only up to us to resolve our Karma, same as this is only up to them to resolve their Karma.

 

 

Its fair to say evacuation isn't ethnic cleansing.

Its fair to say turning half of the infrastructure to rubble there, and having a history of creating opportunistic settlements (which you then have to justify and defend constantly creating tension), leads people to believe you will resettle these areas as your own. I'd be AMAZED if not one new settlement happens.

Its fair to say it hasn't happened yet. If anything this word is being held up now, so that isn't the course you choose as a people. Heck, I've seen people in Israel saying we'll go further south next as an example. -  If I come back 5 months from now and say you've done ethnic cleansing, what good is it? It would already be done.

It's why its nearly useless trying to get you to see the large fallout regionally or internationally from this, because that has happened, but it can always get worse.

Leniency does not radicalize. Impulsiveness, carelessness, and inattentiveness is the opposite of vigilance, which might create opportunities for mischief, but men and women earning money, feeding their families, and living in relative safety are not prone to becoming terrorists who want to suicide bomb you, or throw rockets over at you, because their lives are mostly stable and their families cared for. 

The worse a situation gets the more you radicalize people. With this action you've not deradicalized anyone, you've created hundreds of thousands of new people willing to do violence across the region. Just like their actions created in you. Again this has perfectly played into Iran's hands, both because of the BRICS angle, American isolationism, many groups having an excuse and gaining a large amount of new recruits.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by BlueOak

[Nivsch]

27 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

@Nivsch
Honestly. Do you think I have a habit of omitting details in these discussions? If anything I put too much into my posts.
 

No. I know you are very thorough and tend to deepen with your messages in a postivie way of course but the last message dissmises the reason Israel does what it does and its survival situation from where it acts that people overlook.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

but what you are missing is that the Palestinians in the WB are not innocent. It was another thing if they were innocent, and if it was the case, and they were like the Jews in the gettos in the holocaust, I would have been the first to advocate for them.

I never said it is as bad as the Jewish Ghettos during the Holocaust. But it is not how a first world liberal democracy treats people. It is quite old fashioned. This stuff is nothing new in history. It is all textbook stuff. The issue is that in Israel you have a 21st Century country that treats Palestine with old fashioned racist treatment. Of course it is no near as bad as the Jewish Ghettos, but that is a very low bar to set. Also Palestine did not put the Jews in those ghettos.

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

But in reality they live just fine, they have quality of life, they are not starving, they have cool businesses there, many of them are working in Israel.

They have less rights. Someone with a Palestinian passport living abroad cannot go to West Bank but a Belgian can. Imagine.. I know because I know people that could not go there because they could not enter Israel because of it. Talk about "equal treatment". Also their economy is way worse of partially because of Israel occupation (among other reasons). Hard to develop while being occupied. 

I think you tend to ignore that Israel is an occupying force on the region and kicked millions out.

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

many of them still constantly try to kill and terrorize Israelies, and they come with creative ideas each time which require the soliders to be more paranoid and alert each time.

Shooting kids to practice your aim and laughing about it is not "alert". 

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

When we are talking about rocks we are not talking about little stones but about heavy rocks, this area in particular is full of these and they are a dangerous weapon like any other weapon

So a 7 year old with a stone the size of his small hand can seriously hurt a soldier??? You do realize they lack the strength. I am talking about kids, usually younger than 10 here, not grown adults. And I am not talking about just taking the kids into custody but putting them into a military trial (only country in world that does this), then jailing them for 6 months while they spend the night in a cage on the cold. It is extremally ruthless. I saw a documentary with a British reporter where this thing was happening (putting kids in cages to spend the night on the cold) in the past until human rights organizations forced Israel to stop doing it some years ago. 

Do you think first world liberal democracies in the west like Germany, Norway or Ireland would do such things? Imagine the outrage of the public. Meanwhile in Israel this was endorsed and nobody cared. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you guys wanna be serious, you should take into account that no political group is a monolith. There are people in the Israel government who legit want to do genocide and there are others who don't. And they fight with each other. The same is true on the Palestinian side.

If you treat any of these sides as monoliths you will end up with a childish view of the situation and nothing will get solved.

Considering this is the most posted threat (251 pages and counting) and we have here 5 or so Israelis discussing with dozens of people from different countries that are critical of Israel and almost no consensus shows how hopeless this situation is.

Imagine if the people critical of Israel were not third parties like us but Palestinians, the people they actually have to negotiate with.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Can you please give me a link from where you have read/heard about the children?

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

33 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Considering this is the most posted threat (251 pages and counting) and we have here 5 or so Israelis discussing with dozens of people from different countries that are critical of Israel and almost no consensus shows how hopeless this situation is.

Imagine if the people critical of Israel were not third parties like us but Palestinians, the people they actually have to negotiate with.

And that's people who are on this forum exposed to Leo's body of work and self development, non duality and love etc lol

[Lila9]

2 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Leniency does not radicalize. Impulsiveness, carelessness, and inattentiveness is the opposite of vigilance, which might create opportunities for mischief, but men and women earning money, feeding their families, and living in relative safety are not prone to becoming terrorists who want to suicide bomb you, or throw rockets over at you, because their lives are mostly stable and their families cared for. 

The worse a situation gets the more you radicalize people. With this action you've not deradicalized anyone, you've created hundreds of thousands of new people willing to do violence across the region. Just like their actions created in you. Again this has perfectly played into Iran's hands, both because of the BRICS angle, American isolationism, many groups having an excuse and gaining a large amount of new recruits.

You should look at the Palestinian government, who governs then? They are governed by terrorists.

These people receive so much money frim all over the world, why don't they use it to improve the lives of the Palestinians?

They radicalize their own people, first and foremost.

[zazen]

Advisor to Defence Minister Gallant, former head of National Security Council and former IDF operations chief Giora Eiland, 21 November: “Our mistake is that we accepted the American narrative, which is false, that says in Gaza we have—what? The Hamas, which are very bad people—kill them. And next to them there are two million poor good people, and they should be cared for. Not just not kill them, but also that [Israel) should make sure they have water and food and medicine and even fuel to operate their electricity and sewage systems and other things. That’s a very severe mistake. Wars aren’t won when you kill the last of the combatants of the other side. Wars are won when you collapse an adversary system. The weakness of the adversary system [in this case] is not on the military side—Hamas’s military [branch] is very strong, very organised, very well equipped, and the tunnels give [them] very very very significant ability and durability.” 

Interviewer: “So what are you saying, that we shouldn’t care about what happens to civilians in Gaza, that it shouldn’t be a consideration of Israel [in the fighting]?”

Eiland: “No, not that we shouldn't care—we should care [and make sure] that there is a severe humanitarian disaster there, and severe epidemics, and horrible pressure, and cries to the sky—because that's how wars are won”

Interviewer: “These are not things I've heard from you in the past”

Eiland: “These things are a necessity of reality. Israel is in no less than an existential war…”

Interviewer: “Right, but how does a humanitarian disaster in Gaza serve Israel’s interests?”

Eiland: “A humanitarian disaster is the only way to bring about the end of the war in a desirable way. Think about it this way: the poor women of Gaza, who are they? They are the mothers and sisters and wives of the Hamas murderers. Gaza’s system, unlike [its characterization by the US which I mentioned earlier] that there is Hamas and there are civilians—it is not true! Gaza is a state that is entirely united around its leader and its ideology for 15 years, without any dissent and with enthusiastic support…. The weak point [of Gaza] is their civilian population, and when it cries to the sky, maybe Sinwar, who is a psychopath, won’t be interested. But the thousands of Hamas terrorists, whose mothers and wives and children who will start suffering from severe illnesses, are the point of weakness. If we want to win the war—that’s how you win a war”

[zazen]

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Can you please give me a link from where you have read/heard about the children?

Think this one, I’ll add some more videos maybe you aren’t used to seeing due to algorithm and echo chambers.

Excuse the captions as obviously people post them with anger and hatred but they still show things words can’t describe or that aren’t trusted.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen Watched it all now. 

Yes there are minority among the settlers who create a very big problem.

I understand your point here.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

57 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

They have less rights. Someone with a Palestinian passport living abroad cannot go to West Bank but a Belgian can. Imagine.. I know because I know people that could not go there because they could not enter Israel because of it. Talk about "equal treatment". Also their economy is way worse of partially because of Israel occupation (among other reasons). Hard to develop while being occupied. 

Israel has the right to defend itself. It's if Israel limits the access, there is a reason for that, it doesn't come out of no where. Please stop pretending that the people there are innocent victims who never had bad intentions and all they want is to have peace with Israel, it's not correct.

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

I think you tend to ignore that Israel is an occupying force on the region and kicked millions out.

Bruh, Israel was occupied by the Arabic empire a while ago, who is the occupier?

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Shooting kids to practice your aim and laughing about it is not "alert". 

I doubt that it was happened.

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

I saw a documentary with a British reporter where this thing was happening (putting kids in cages to spend the night on the cold) in the past until human rights organizations forced Israel to stop doing it some years ago. 

Do you think first world liberal democracies in the west like Germany, Norway or Ireland would do such things? Imagine the outrage of the public. Meanwhile in Israel this was endorsed and nobody cared. 

No, it's because there are much worse problems in the world and that people understand that most of these claims about mistreatment of Palestinians are incorrect and made up.

 

[Karmadhi]

49 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Can you please give me a link from where you have read/heard about the children?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-government-tortures-children-by-keeping-them-in-cages-human-rights-group-says-9032826.html

https://www.pjcvt.org/blog/palestinian-kids-dont-belong-in-cages-support-hr-2407/

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/“treated-animals”-palestinian-children-face-inhumane-treatment-israeli-run-prisons

"First world liberal democracy" my ass...

 

[Karmadhi]

5 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

if Israel limits the access, there is a reason for that, it doesn't come out of no where

Sure there is. Same reasons blacks were not allowed to sit next to whites on buses in the past.

The reason is racism and dehumanization of Palestinians.

It is not rocket science.

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

No, it's because there are much worse problems in the world and that people understand that most of these claims about mistreatment of Palestinians are incorrect and made up.

I am saying Germany does not put childreen in cages, neither does Norway or Ireland

Edited December 13, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

38 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

people understand that most of these claims about mistreatment of Palestinians are incorrect and made up.

+1 ❤

In my opinion, definitely exaggarated enormously by Al Jazeera (mainly) and the like echo chamber.

It is one thing to talk maturely about problems and to critisize fairly, and it is totally another thing to exaggarate and to lie.

Palestinian propaganda is way way more corrupt than the Israeli one and fulled with lies which I saw them being exposed in the media. They have one of the most manipulative propaganda in the world.

This is naiveness to think their inner corruption won't be expressed in their media too.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

13 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

+1 ❤

In my opinion, definitely exaggarated enormously by Al Jazeera (mainly) and the like echo chamber.

It is one thing to talk maturely about problems and to critisize fairly, and it is totally another thing to exaggarate and to lie.

If there was an approved data that isn't made up by some biased organizations and social media accounts it was another story but here it's not the case. Just a talk with no ground in reality.

18 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Palestinian propaganda is way way more corrupt than the Israeli one and fulled with lies. They have one of the most manipulative propaganda in the world.

This is naiveness to think their inner corruption won't be expressed in their media too.

Yes and it's crazy that some people buy so easily into this stage red manipulation. Especially westerns. They are probably the types who get easily scammed by criminals.

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Saw it now. I glad this is over and ended in 2014 with the help of the great Justice minister Tzipi Livni.

Sounds like there was a group of Israeli workers that "dealt their own justice".

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

41 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-government-tortures-children-by-keeping-them-in-cages-human-rights-group-says-9032826.html

https://www.pjcvt.org/blog/palestinian-kids-dont-belong-in-cages-support-hr-2407/

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/“treated-animals”-palestinian-children-face-inhumane-treatment-israeli-run-prisons

"First world liberal democracy" my ass...

 

The thing is that these organizations' data can't be trusted.

Especially Save the Children, there is a lot of critisicm about the credibility of their data and about their true intentions in protecting and advocating for children. They claim to be not biased by they are biased as hell.

This organization has been researched by NGO monitor which reaserch non-profit organizations such as STC.

https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/save_the_children_fund/

Some of their conclusions:

Quote

Save the Children runs a number of projects in Gaza and the West Bank, implementing “programs in the areas of education, economic opportunities and psychosocial health… humanitarian assistance, child protection and youth development.”

Despite a humanitarian mandate, some of these programs include major political and partisan advocacy that fuels the conflict, echoing the Palestinian narrative of victimization.

Quote

 

In October 2020, Save the Children published a report on “the impact of the Israeli military detention system on Palestinian children.” Save the Children itself acknowledged that the data presented in the publication “is not a statistically significant or representative sample. As the report intentionally presents children’s experience from their own perspective, it is also important to note that incidents they mention have not been independently verified by Save the Children” (emphases added). The report severely downplays the extent and severity of violence committed by Palestinian minors against Israeli civilians and soldiers, and ignores the widespread phenomena of incitement prevalent in the West Bank.

The report was “co-funded by the European Union” and features the EU logo

Quote

In November 2018, during the violence on the Gaza border, Save the Children stated that “The Israeli government must end the use of sniper fire and live ammunition against children in Gaza. The killing and wounding of children is never acceptable.” Save the Children does not question why these children were present in an obviously violent situation where there was a known potential for injury, nor does the organization condemn Hamas and other Palestinian terror groups’ recruitment and use of children throughout the violence. The NGO also ignored the violent nature of the protests, which have consisted of an organized armed attack on the Israeli border and IDF positions, attempts to destroy and breach the border fence, and sustained arson, rocket, and mortar attacks on Israeli civilian communities.

 

Quote

On May 26, 2018, the Dar al Huda kindergarten in Gaza held a graduation ceremony that included the mock killing and kidnapping of Israelis by children dressed as combatants.1 The simulation included sophisticated equipment such as drones, body cameras, military fatigues, body armor, and sniper camouflage. Children wore headbands representing Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), designated as a terrorist organization by the US, EU, and others.

 

Quote

On August 2017, Save the Children accused Israel of “target[ing]” Palestinian “educational facilities” and alleged that children “face countless threats in simply trying to reach school and enjoy their basic right to education. These threats include: violence and harassment from settlers/Israeli soldiers on the journey to school, military activity in or around their schools, military or police arresting and detaining children from their classrooms, lost time due to the closure of a military area or firing zone, delays crossing checkpoints…” Save the Children ignored Palestinian incitement of children for violence, the use of schools to indoctrinate children with antisemitic and violent propaganda, and the recruitment and use of Palestinian children by armed groups

 

[Lila9]

Criticism of 'Save the Children’s Misleading Report on Detention of Palestinians'

https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/save-the-childrens-misleading-report-on-detention-of-palestinians/

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Considering this is the most posted threat (251 pages and counting) and we have here 5 or so Israelis discussing with dozens of people from different countries that are critical of Israel and almost no consensus shows how hopeless this situation is.

Yes, because this issue cannot be solved by taking the side of one or the other in the fighting. This requires going meta, which few minds are willing to do, so we have endless conflict.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Leo Gura