New War In Israel / Gaza

[Merkabah Star]

25 minutes ago, zazen said:

 Just entertainment and some intellectual stimulation at this point lol. Despite the lack of good faith and respect for Palestinian life some decent rebuttals and points are made which I welcome to expand my understanding.

Your understanding on this topic is expanded already, way beyond. 
 

[Nivsch]

23 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Nivsch Yes, it’s important to look into why the proposals for a state have been rejected. This post covers some of it.

And the other proposals?

There were countless.

See Anapolis conference with MANY mediators in the negotiations:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference

And sorry but to explode it all like a child is not serious. They have to understand we can't just trust them blindly after what they did, and to also do concessions.

I am not saying Barack's offer was fair enough but there were so many with many more mediators in the negotiation process apart from Israel and palestine.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[jaylimix]

51 minutes ago, zazen said:

1) Depends how old the videos is - before or after blockade. Regardless - it was a relatively nice place and some aspects remain or look nice despite Israel’s blockade and siege because it’s been a hub of trade and commerce for Paleatianians for a long part of their history - a history you deny. So your claim for them to be useless and not ‘builders’ of anything is false then? So they’re not ‘cancers’ on earth? The fact they’ve maintained whatever they had despite Israel’s blockade and siege is due to their creativity and adaptability.

2) IDF and Israel isn’t a trust worthy authority as they’ve been caught out lying many times in the past and including during this war. It’s frankly embarrassingly - to the point my Israeli friends feel embarrassed to even associate with Israel. Social media has made their propaganda much harder to work.

3) Over half the people alive today didn’t vote for Hamas as they weren’t born or just children - children you said you don’t care die so why should anyone listen to you when your coming from such a extreme place of bias. You think you support Israel but you do them a disservice by your comments as people see them and associate Israel supporters with your sentiments - which are extreme.

4) They didn’t vote for them to ‘kill’ but to govern and resist as they hade the most back bone to do so. Would Nelson Mandela be deemed a terrorist today for freeing his people? So if Americans vote in their leaders and America goes to war and kills people the American people are held accountable and by your logic deserve collective punishment?

5) They weren’t necessarily cheering the massacring of people although sure some were and that’s sick. But to them what it symbolises was breaking free of Israel’s grip and boot on their necks. They were born into a place they could never leave or were heavily restricted from on the Egypt side. Work permits given in the later years only represent less than 1% of the population and then again - only to benefit Israel as they need the labour, not out of some benevolence.

1) Still doesn't change the fact that while they were building their own city, at the same time they are building terror tunnels, rocket launchers, smuggling bombs/guns to destroy and kill a neighbor, and in doing so destroy and kill themselves in the process, so how are they not cancers? lmao. Can't stand the propaganda that Pales are in a concentration camp or open air prison, which prison allows free reign to build weaponry and terror tunnel ? What's more, Gaza is actually a nice place with nice beaches and restaurant, but they have to throw it all away, SMFH.

2) I don't know about which past wars that you are referring to, but I do remember the previous one before this one, during Covid time, where Pales indiscriminately, and yes this is indiscriminately, shot barrages of rockets into Israel, only to then suffer a retaliation of target surgical airstrikes on rocket launchers. Do you see why I can't stand anti-Israel peeps who indiscriminately use words to erroneously describe a situation ?

3) One factor of my reaction is due to how the world was so heartless towards to Israelis, resulting in a secondary hurt towards them. Pales have a lot more people to cares for them, not me, I am not a saint.

4) Point taken.

5) I don't know how easy or difficult it is for them to leave but there is still a way for them to leave and travel to other countries, I've seen some videos of influencers. On work permit, I used to work in another country before I am thankful for that. Gazans get a lot more salary working in Israel and their way of paying back is not with gratitude but with betrayal and murder. Have you read the report on how the Gazans who worked in Israel spied for Hamas? Israel doesn't need to employ Gazans, they could employ Thai and Pinoys and many other countries, and I hope they no longer employ any Pales going forward.

I think it is safe to assume that both Gazan Pales and Westbank Pales have the same kind of ideology in their head. I hope to see Israel use the Xinjiang Counter-Terrorism Initiative on them a.k.a. Reeducation Camp. Since 2016, Xinjiang no longer faces anymore terror attacks.

http://kw.china-embassy.gov.cn/eng/zgxw/202209/P020220912088416288194.pdf

[Lila9]

7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

I also apologize if I am coming across as too logical rather than emotional or understanding of your emotional state. I have a bias towards wanting to avoid aggression and violence. So any lessening of it I can inspire in anyone, I will usually go out of my way to do. In whatever form works.

I understand that you have bias of avoiding aggression and violence. I don't think that I'm pro it either.

This is normal. The last thing that I want is to be in a situation of a war. 

What I'm trying to say is that we have entered to this war because of this severe expression of violence and aggression towards us and if many in Israel previously believed that this conflict can be resolved peacefully and comfortably, this time there is collective realization or awakening that we don't have an ally for a peaceful and comfortable resolutions, we are dealing with psychopaths who can't tolerate our mere existence that would have eliminate us if they only could, with great pride.

 

7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

I do not say things I don't honestly feel or mean. My words only have value if they are truthfully what I am thinking or feeling. The power is mostly with you all, not Hamas currently, they are almost powerless in pure reaction to survive but I think you all feel that way too. Perhaps the energy and focus is best put in showing you that you do have options, power, and a real say in how this goes. Survival thinking is not your only option, you did (and still do have a few allies left willing to help), though you are creating the pure isolationism you feel to be reflected in the world around you. That is a choice on your part, and I wish at least you could understand that you help create and shape the wider reality you experience going forward.

It's not that simple, if you deal with stage red mentality you have to show power, you can't be an hippie seeking comfort. It has been tried many times, didn't work. Made things worse. You assume that we should avoid being agressive in all costs to solve agression.

But there are situations when agression is necessary, especially if it prevents even bigger aggression and violence.

[Ash55]

13 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Yes I am. My perspective and the perspective of other Israelies here is valid.

i do understand that most Israelis just wanna live in peace, and most people there opened their eyes  on wars and conflicts, but i hope we reach one state where both side coexist peacefully
@Lila9 well stay safe there

 

 

13 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Yes lol

But better to be 6 than 4.

lol yeah, and i hope the 4 yo dont get killed too

 

[BlueOak]

28 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

we are dealing with psychopaths

...

It's not that simple, if you deal with stage red mentality you have to show power, you can't be an hippie seeking comfort. It has been tried many times, didn't work. Made things worse. You assume that we should avoid being agressive in all costs to solve agression.

But there are situations when agression is necessary, especially if it prevents even bigger aggression and violence.

1) No you are not. You are dealing with a % of the population who has become radicalized, more so now because of your actions. Only 1 in 200 people are born psychopaths. 

2) As I have said in other threads and this one, there were multiple ways to handle this situation, you have chosen genocide. Do not make me out to be a hippy, when in previous conversations I have said airstrikes and covert action, such as professional special forces, to recover hostages should have been part of any operation. These methods should have been used first, and then if you wanted to conduct this campaign when the hostages were recovered, you still could have. Allies should have been brought in first, giving you political legitimacy, outside resources, and a cushion that isn't just one lone president Biden being vilified by the world. - I won't repeat it all, its in the thread I linked. For all the reasons i've already discussed, it would have been better for you long term, when your emotion dies down, to have gone this route.

You have a black-and-white understanding of reality. Where people need to be one or the other. That is not how life is. Its very complicated, with many factors, and a lot of emotion here especially.
 

Edited December 13, 2023 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 @BlueOak If we didn't have hostages to save, then we could argue about more creative ways to eliminate hamas as you suggested a month ago I remember and it was interesting to read.

but as long as we have hostages that hamas didn't agree to release without the military pressure, I don't know if we could have another option.

You don't effectively recover hostages by carpet bombing areas.

You effectively recover hostages by making them the priority first. Surgical precision is needed to recover hostages, and is more beneficial in war time anyway. All of that was at your disposal a certain level domestically and much more internationally. There was a wealth of special forces, intelligence operatives and others that would have been happy to help at the start of this. As well as precision airpower and missiles.

I have come to realise Israel thinks it's alone, even now. It acts alone and it's creating a reality where it will become more alone. Someone will turn around in the future and say look we are alone now, and I will have to try and explain how you got there. You are making what you feel a reality.

*I want to also say thank you for acknowledging I was trying to help, at the least, the guy sitting thousands of miles away looking at this is not your enemy, they never were.

Edited December 13, 2023 by BlueOak

[Lila9]

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I think we had a missunderstanding. I was referring to whether Jews when they arrived in Palestine during WW2 were treated as bad as Palestinians are treated in the West Bank through the last decades. And I gave examples of the treatment above. So I am talking about the way Jews in Palestine were treated between 1940 to 1947 or so.

I asked because you rejected my claim that Jews were treated with open arm by Palestine between 1940 to 1947. My question was, was that treatment as bad as the stuff I wrote above?

The thing is that there were attacks on Jews during these years prior to Israel's establishment, therefore it wouldn't be correct to say that they were welcomed by Arabs with open arms, because they didn't. 

And it's not like there were Arabs once attacking Jews and it's ended after Israel's established and the occupation of the WB, these attacks have never ended, they have gotten worse during the years and Israel responded to these attacks.

You criticize the mistreatment of Israel of the Palestinians which is valid, but what you are missing is that the Palestinians in the WB are not innocent. It was another thing if they were innocent, and if it was the case, and they were like the Jews in the gettos in the holocaust, I would have been the first to advocate for them.

But in reality they live just fine, they have quality of life, they are not starving, they have cool businesses there, many of them are working in Israel.

Yet, many of them still constantly try to kill and terrorize Israelies, and they come with creative ideas each time which require the soliders to be more paranoid and alert each time.

They exploit good or fair treatment to commit terror. There were so many times where Palestinian women went to the checkpoints with a belly that appears pregnant and requested to pass into Israel in order to get treatment and later it has been found that she is not pregnant but carry an exploitive device or knife with the purpose to stab as many people as she could.

That's why checkpoints are the way they are, everyday some Palestinians are trying to pass to Israel with ill intentions of killing.

Not to mention how many times Palestinians killed settlers or just random Israeli people who mistakenly got to the WB because of disruptions in GPS, they are usually welcomed with a mass of people throwing rocks on their cars and they are lucky if they ending up alive.

When we are talking about rocks we are not talking about little stones but about heavy rocks, this area in particular is full of these and they are a dangerous weapon like any other weapon.

And all the times Palestinians managed to enter to the Israeli territory and committed terror attacks and suicidal attacks, against random Israeli people.

So the picture is much more nuanced than Israelies not treating well Palestinians because they are being 'evil occupiers' and rasicts, or the claim that Palestinians are like the Jews in gettos in the Holocaust.

Which is a complete distortion of the reality.

If I or any random Israeli person want to go to the WB, there is no promise that we will end up alive or not injured, while if a Palestinian enters to the Israeli territory, which happens everyday because there are many workers from Palestine, it's more likely that they will return back to their homes in the Palestinian territories safely and alive.

 

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

@BlueOak I really don't think it is realistic to bring back the hostages by special operations, except for only couple of hostages to the at most. Only by deal.

And thank you too! I appreciate that 🙏

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

43 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

1) No you are not. You are dealing with a % of the population who has become radicalized, more so now because of your actions. Only 1 in 200 people are born psychopaths. 

This population always was radicalized. You think that you can apply here logic without taking into account toxic ideology which is an emotional attachment to certain beliefs. Antisemitic and anti Israel beliefs which was much before Israel's establishment.

46 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

2) As I have said in other threads and this one, there were multiple ways to handle this situation, you have chosen genocide. 

This is far from being a genocide, to scream that this is a genocide in every opportunity is highly biased and irrational.

This is a well planned military operation given the Israel's development limitations, a war between two parties which Israel didn't start.

55 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

You have a black-and-white understanding of reality. Where people need to be one or the other. That is not how life is. Its very complicated, with many factors, and a lot of emotion here especially.

Just because you judge black and white thinking doesn't mean you are immune to that.

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Ash55 said:

i do understand that most Israelis just wanna live in peace, and most people there opened their eyes  on wars and conflicts, but i hope we reach one state where both side coexist peacefully
@Lila9 well stay safe there

Thank you 🌹

[BlueOak]

2 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

This population always was radicalized. You think that you can apply here logic without taking into account toxic ideology which is an emotional attachment to certain beliefs. Antisemitic and anti Israel beliefs which was much before Israel's establishment.

This is far from being a genocide, to scream that this is a genocide in every opportunity is highly biased and irrational.

This is a well planned military operation given the Israel's development limitations, a war between two parties which Israel didn't start.

Just because you judge black and white thinking doesn't mean you are immune to that.

I usually use the words ethnic cleansing. It certainly is that. Removing a population, culture or ethnic group from an area. 50%+ of which is now rubble. After that, the definition of genocide is usually numbers. I used it to provoke an emotional response in you. To get you to look at it, because I know it resonates personally with the history of your people.

If it helps to repeat the obvious, yes Hamas were toxic, but that isn't a sufficient word. Hamas brought about the destruction of their own people, they were self-destructive, they viewed you as invaders, and the world as a battleground. That's probably as self-destructive as you can get, they are literally killing themselves both in a spiritual sense (attacking a part of themselves they hate) , but also practically fighting a much larger opponent, because they were radicalized through a chain of events, even to the point that death is somehow a benefit to them. It is certainly not the only place this is visible, its an ongoing radicalization of the youth at present in many countries, with different expressions, even in Western ones.

If you want to kid yourself that turning an area to rubble, in an attempt to get hostages back, is a well-planned military operation you can. It's simply false. The goal here is to get rid of Hamas and the Palestinian presence in the north of Gaza, in that yes its somewhat well executed. Maximum force brought to bear on an opponent while minimizing your own casualties. The long-term fallout of acting unilaterally is something I can't impart to you, despite trying with so many posts. I guess the only way is for you to live it. I could try again and say this was because of a chain events you were part of, you were not just victims, but also part of this situation that has manifested, but you are right, logic can't be applied to emotion while the suffering is as raw as it is.

Just don't try to apply logic to those you hate either, because they are feeling the same thing.

[Nivsch]

@BlueOak Every such term like "ethnic cleansing" is totally meaningless and no more than a slogan when being related out of the bigger context.

In the bigger context, hamas kidnapped and murdered our people, left Israel no option but to fight back to eliminate him or at least 95% of him before it will agree to release them all.

hamas is a gerilla organization knows it is weaker than organized militaries, hence developed through its evolution a strategy we can compare to a smart virus who uses healthy cells and also diguise itself to them, in order to survive.

And when you have 10,000s terror targets to attack, it is impossible to think every single time how to hurt only terrorists, and not by mistake also healthy cells, even if you try your best.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

@Nivsch
Quote:
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

If Israel intends to settle that area after they are done, this is exactly what is happening in the North of Gaza.

 

[Leo Gura]

If you guys wanna be serious, you should take into account that no political group is a monolith. There are people in the Israel government who legit want to do genocide and there are others who don't. And they fight with each other. The same is true on the Palestinian side.

If you treat any of these sides as monoliths you will end up with a childish view of the situation and nothing will get solved.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@BlueOak This mathematics of definitions is meaningless to me when out of the context sorry.

In 1940s in Germany there were also all of that done by the allies to defeat the nazis and much more extreme.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

I usually use the words ethnic cleansing. It certainly is that. Removing a population, culture or ethnic group from an area. 50%+ of which is now rubble. After that, the definition of genocide is usually numbers. I used it to provoke an emotional response in you. To get you to look at it, because I know it resonates personally with the history of your people.

I don't agree that this definition of ethnical cleansing applies either, or at least, I would say that it's too early to use this term.

I don't think that you can call evacuation of people to save their lives as ethnical cleansing. Would you prefer them to be bombed and killed instead?

And we haven't know yet how this evacuation would end, chances they will return to this territory, not immediately thought, but it's very likely.

It seems that people seek to use these big words, and when they actually use this, they do that in a disproportionate manner.

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

If you want to kid yourself that turning an area to rubble, in an attempt to get hostages back, is a well-planned military operation you can. It's simply false.

The thing is that there are attempts to bring hostages back through military operation. A very few of them were successful, others not. It's not easy and it puts the hostages lives at risk.

Some people who returned back from the captivity said that they hoped the military wouldn't try to save them through military operation because they constantly were near Hamas terrorists who threatened to kill them if they suspected the military is too close. 

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

If it helps to repeat the obvious, yes Hamas were toxic, but that isn't a sufficient word. Hamas brought about the destruction of their own people, they were self-destructive, they viewed you as invaders, and the world as a battleground. That's probably as self-destructive as you can get, they are literally killing themselves both in a spiritual sense (attacking a part of themselves they hate) , but also practically fighting a much larger opponent, because they were radicalized through a chain of events, even to the point that death is somehow a benefit to them. It is certainly not the only place this is visible, its an ongoing radicalization of the youth at present in many countries, with different expressions, even in Western ones.

Yes I agree that Israel has some responsibility in Hamas radicalization, there are some chain events which helped to Hamas become more radical, but this is not necessarily negative chain events like puting more pressure on Palestinians or worsening their conditions, like many people in your position probably assume.

In fact it was the quite opposite, the letinant approach of Israel, the indifference to the terror, the naivity at the beginning of Hamas when it only formed itself, are the mistakes and the chain events which led to this radicalization.

Many stupid and naive mistakes of the Israeli government, the pride and the underestimation of the capabilities and intentions of their enemy.

This is a classic mistake, the underestimation of the enemy.

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

 I could try again and say this was because of a chain events you were part of, you were not just victims, but also part of this situation that has manifested, but you are right, logic can't be applied to emotion while the suffering is as raw as it is.

Just don't try to apply logic to those you hate either, because they are feeling the same thing.

Israel has responsibility, chain events Israel was part of but not the chain events that you might think it was, as I explained above.

In a war there are no winners, only losers, and we are all losers, both the Israelies and the Palestinians, of this conflict.

We are the victims of our Karma, our mistakes, our bad choices, beliefs and same are the Palestinians, they are the victims of their Karma, their mistakes, their bad choices and beliefs.

This is only up to us to resolve our Karma, same as this is only up to them to resolve their Karma.

 

 

[Nivsch]

@Lila9 wow I also just thought about it before I saw your message. When a giant shouty word is used to explain a situation ("genocide", "atrocities" etc) this is always or mostly an escape from seeing the bigger context, the validity of the other side's pov and like an emergency compensation word the amigdala fires you to do to feel comfortable and calm again.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

@Nivsch
Honestly. Do you think I have a habit of omitting details in these discussions? If anything I put too much into my posts.

You are correct though moralizing is used as a convenient cudgle all throughout society. Me I just use what works. Sometimes going full green as they say here is very effective. Other times practically showing people A-B-C is. Other times weighting your message socialist, capitalist, authoritarian or liberal works, it depends on what you want to achieve or who you are speaking to.



 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you guys wanna be serious, you should take into account that no political group is a monolith. There are people in the Israel government who legit want to do genocide and there are others who don't. And they fight with each other. The same is true on the Palestinian side.

If you treat any of these sides as monoliths you will end up with a childish view of the situation and nothing will get solved.

Appreciate and understand. 

I will try to be more careful to that.

We must have a less extreme more centrist government as soon as possible 😤😶‍🌫️

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch