New War In Israel / Gaza

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, jaylimix said:

How could Jews be occupiers when they are indigenous to the land ? 

The Palestinians, who are descendants of Arab Muslim invaders/merchants are not indigenous and therefore are occupying Jewish land, they are the real occupiers.

So if someone came to your house and told you the Bible says their ancestors lived there 2000 years ago would you pack your bags and move? 

[Girzo]

2 minutes ago, jaylimix said:

How could Jews be occupiers when they are indigenous to the land ? 

I have real problem believing you are an honestly confused person and not just a bad faith actor who stirs some pointless drama on purpose.

They are occupiers, no-one agreed on giving them the land they have been illegally grabbing, even according to their own rules expanding settlements had been illegal.

What are you getting out of this pointless bickering?

[Raze]

 

[jaylimix]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

How ignorant would that be? That’s how it sounds when someone asks how were Palestinians made refugees and you respond by asking how are they being treated in there places of refuge.

The Nakba is a self created reality.

Those Palestinians who joined in with the other Arab nations to destroy the state of Israel were expelled after they lost the war, whereas the Arabs (20% of the population) who are Israelis today did not support the destruction of Israel.

I feel no sympathy for them, why should I ?

Edited December 13, 2023 by jaylimix

[jaylimix]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

1) I'm not disrespecting logic and calculations, I think that strategy and certain emotional distance is required to get good results and it's part of the solution. And I think that given the circumstances, Israel's response is quite logical. 

2) Israel's government has mainly blue/orange values while the military has orange values mainly. 

1) Very logical - Giving civilians a month to move south, opening up humanitarian corridor, air support first before boots on the ground otherwise it would be a suicide mission for the soldiers.

2) Aren't the leftist in the government green hence orange/green?

[Raze]

 

[jaylimix]

41 minutes ago, Raze said:

1. He clarified he didn’t know what happened to the baby 

https://www.sportskeeda.com/pop-culture/news-did-hamas-bake-baby-oven-claim-explored-israeli-first-responder-s-claim-sparks-outrage-online

2. If you throw a lethal weapon at someone, you intend to kill them whether you say it or not.

2) You throw a Molotov cocktail from outside of the house at a window, it's debatable whether there is intention to kill.

1) Quote

"Beer told the Sun that he does not know if the baby was placed there by Hamas or the parents who were trying to protect the child from the assailants who broke into their home and killed them before setting the house on fire.

Beer explained that since all the witnesses were dead, there was no way to find out if Hamas turned the oven on or if the baby died when they set the home ablaze after killing the parents."

While we could debate on how likely it is for the parents to put the baby in the oven, we would never find out.

Nevertheless, it is dead wrong to say that this had been debunked and proceed to laugh about it as so many Anti Israel peeps do.

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

They did even worse than that to Jews, and if they could they would have done more. October 7 was the peak of it. They literally shot living people genitals and breasts, shot parents in front of their children and vise versa, gang raped women and burned living people. The level of cruelty can't really be comparible. You compare cases of a few radical Jews which saddens most of the Israelies given that it really happened, to a terror policy against Jews and Israel that many Palestinians, if not the majority of the Palestinians, were ok with and celebrated on the streets.

I think we had a missunderstanding. I was referring to whether Jews when they arrived in Palestine during WW2 were treated as bad as Palestinians are treated in the West Bank through the last decades. And I gave examples of the treatment above. So I am talking about the way Jews in Palestine were treated between 1940 to 1947 or so.

I asked because you rejected my claim that Jews were treated with open arm by Palestine between 1940 to 1947. My question was, was that treatment as bad as the stuff I wrote above?

Edited December 13, 2023 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:13 AM, jaylimix said:

We build and build our human civilization and Israel is the leader in building human civilization.

So does Palestinian lives matter in the grand scheme of human civilization building? No, they are but a cancer to this process.

I stand with Israel and this is my bias, I want to see Israel survive and thrive.

So people who build less than other people are a ‘cancer’ on this earth?

On 12/12/2023 at 2:56 AM, jaylimix said:

It's more like I couldn't care less about the Palestinians.

And they started the first domino. It's all a self created reality.

Collectively punishing them is justified, though I can see that Israel is not actually doing that.

So holding a population captive for 18 years in dire conditions even before October 7th isn’t collective punishment? In the words of Norman Finkelstein “Palestinians have a right to hate the people that destroyed their lives”

23 hours ago, jaylimix said:

Will you all just stop with your BS atrocity denial? 

We can admit atrocities were done on October 7th, maybe not to the extent that’s been propagandised such as 40 beheaded babies and the like as those stories have been retracted on and no evidence shown. For the mass rape Israel denied any investigation because they deem UN anti semitic and even buried the burned cars because it would incriminate the IDF in the level carnage they did and killed their own people on October 7th also.

22 hours ago, jaylimix said:

Another thing to note is that settlers are not the IDF, again you need to draw a distinction here.

So draw the distinction that Palestinians are not Hamas terrorists - yet you say they should be collectively punished? 

4 hours ago, jaylimix said:

The Nakba is a self created reality.

Those Palestinians who joined in with the other Arab nations to destroy the state of Israel were expelled after they lost the war, whereas the Arabs (20% of the population) who are Israelis today did not support the destruction of Israel.

I feel no sympathy for them, why should I ?

October 7th is a self created reality then lol this is when law of attraction and spirituality is taken to absurd degrees. 
 

Zionist memes trying to “debunk” this fact of the Nakba often begin their population tables after 1948. The term Nakba is even legislatively banned from Israeli school textbooks.

 

And no this wasn’t sourced from a ‘untrustworthy’ antisemitic source but from Jewish virtual library - but you’ll probably just call them self hating Jews.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present?utm_content=cmp-true

Edited December 13, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

47 minutes ago, zazen said:

So people who build less than other people are a ‘cancer’ on this earth?

So holding a population captive for 18 years in dire conditions even before October 7th isn’t collective punishment? In the words of Norman Finkelstein “Palestinians have a right to hate the people that destroyed their lives”

We can admit atrocities were done on October 7th, maybe not to the extent that’s been propagandised such as 40 beheaded babies and the like as those stories have been retracted on and no evidence shown. For the mass rape Israel denied any investigation because they deem UN anti semitic and even buried the burned cars because it would incriminate the IDF in the level carnage they did and killed their own people on October 7th also.

October 7th is a self created reality then lol this is when law of attraction and spirituality is taken to absurd degrees. 

Good luck with understanding the situation when you refuse to confront the emotions 7.10 might bring to you by denying and polishing techniques your mind does for you. After that, how can a fair and serious discussion be done in the first place?

[Nivsch]

 @BlueOak If we didn't have hostages to save, then we could argue about more creative ways to eliminate hamas as you suggested a month ago I remember and it was interesting to read.

but as long as we have hostages that hamas didn't agree to release without the military pressure, I don't know if we could have another option.

[jaylimix]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

1) So people who build less than other people are a ‘cancer’ on this earth?

2) So holding a population captive for 18 years in dire conditions even before October 7th isn’t collective punishment? In the words of Norman Finkelstein “Palestinians have a right to hate the people that destroyed their lives”

3) We can admit atrocities were done on October 7th, maybe not to the extent that’s been propagandised such as 40 beheaded babies and the like as those stories have been retracted on and no evidence shown. For the mass rape Israel denied any investigation because they deem UN anti semitic and even buried the burned cars because it would incriminate the IDF in the level carnage they did and killed their own people on October 7th also.

4) So draw the distinction that Palestinians are not Hamas terrorists - yet you say they should be collectively punished? 

5) October 7th is a self created reality then lol this is when law of attraction and spirituality is taken to absurd degrees. 

6) Zionist memes trying to “debunk” this fact of the Nakba often begin their population tables after 1948. The term Nakba is even legislatively banned from Israeli school textbooks.

 

And no this wasn’t sourced from a ‘untrustworthy’ antisemitic source but from Jewish virtual library - but you’ll probably just call them self hating Jews.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present?utm_content=cmp-true

1) People who kill and destroy, look at how the Palestinian dug out water tubes and made rockets out of it, destroying their own water infrastructure in the process. Look at these clowns - https://x.com/YaariCohen/status/1734352238141669496?s=20

2) Gaza is not an open air prison, it is a nice place I can go for a vacation - https://x.com/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20 | https://x.com/imshin/status/1139934758547480577?s=20

And they can leave too and take a plane to travel to other countries - https://x.com/imshin/status/1713838572749435307?s=20

Is there a blockade to enter Israel? Well of course, Israel is another country, let's not forget how dangerous of a neighbor the Pales are.

3) What I know is babies were killed, and babies were beheaded, but I don't know what is the number of it, 1 is too many. On rape, take the testimonials from morgue workers, first responders, policemen. I don't know who you give your authority to, but for me certainly not journalists.

4) They voted Hamas in to fight and kill for them, and many still support Hamas and cheered when the carcass of Israelis and hostages were brought back into Gaza.

5) Nothing spiritual about this take, it is simply the law of cause and effect.

6) As mentioned those who sided with the Arab nations who wants to destroy Israel were exiled from "their" lands.

Last thing I will say:

Winners (Israel) do not need to lie to win, because they have already won.

Losers lie (mic drop).

Edited December 13, 2023 by jaylimix

[Merkabah Star]

@zazen don’t waste your time replying to the troll. This thread is over and out. 

[Nivsch]

@kenway These homes are probably empthy and if not empthy then probably populated by hamas people.

This technique of cherry picking blurry stuff from the periphery and making them seen as the picture of IDF doesn't work on me.

There never was and never be a symmetry between the two sides. And be thankful because any other western military would behave very likely much more dirty. 

You just hold IDF to be a tier 2 angle and then when it can't be a tier 2 angle you are complaining and say it is a devil. These games are transparent and embarrasing.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[jaylimix]

20 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

@zazen don’t waste your time replying to the troll. This thread is over and out. 

Do I sound like a troll to you? Or do you dislike my sound viewpoints ? 

[zazen]

2 hours ago, jaylimix said:

1) People who kill and destroy, look at how the Palestinian dug out water tubes and made rockets out of it, destroying their own water infrastructure in the process.

2) Gaza is not an open air prison, it is a nice place I can go for a vacation - https://x.com/imshin/status/1733819052659740965?s=20 | https://x.com/imshin/status/1139934758547480577?s=20

And they can leave too and take a plane to travel to other countries - https://x.com/imshin/status/1713838572749435307?s=20

Is there a blockade to enter Israel? Well of course, Israel is another country, let's not forget how dangerous of a neighbor the Pales are.

3) What I know is babies were killed, and babies were beheaded, but I don't know what is the number of it, 1 is too many. On rape, take the testimonials from morgue workers, first responders, policemen. I don't know who you give your authority to, but for me certainly not journalists.

4) They voted Hamas in to fight and kill for them, and many still support Hamas and cheered when the carcass of Israelis and hostages were brought back into Gaza.

5) Nothing spiritual about this take, it is simply the law of cause and effect.

6) As mentioned those who sided with the Arab nations who wants to destroy Israel were exiled from "their" lands.

 

1/2. Depends how old the videos is - before or after blockade. Regardless - it was a relatively nice place and some aspects remain or look nice despite Israel’s blockade and siege because it’s been a hub of trade and commerce for Paleatianians for a long part of their history - a history you deny. So your claim for them to be useless and not ‘builders’ of anything is false then? So they’re not ‘cancers’ on earth? The fact they’ve maintained whatever they had despite Israel’s blockade and siege is due to their creativity and adaptability.

3. Of course 1 is too many and the suffering is valid. I’m not denying atrocity. But exaggerating them and blasting claims to demonize Palestinians to such an extent as to justify Israel’s actions is where the problem lies. It’s the same with the incubater baby hoax that would secure US support to get involved in the Gulf war. The daughter of a Kuwaiti ambassador to the US made claims of babies being unplugged from incubators and left to die - actual babies have been deprived of resources needed to sustain incubators in Gaza which have been documented in recent weeks. 
 

IDF and Israel isn’t a trust worthy authority as they’ve been caught out lying many times in the past and including during this war. It’s frankly embarrassingly - to the point my Israeli friends feel embarrassed to even associate with Israel. Social media has made their propaganda much harder to work.

4. Over half the people alive today didn’t vote for Hamas as they weren’t born or just children - children you said you don’t care die so why should anyone listen to you when your coming from such a extreme place of bias. You think you support Israel but you do them a disservice by your comments as people see them and associate Israel supporters with your sentiments - which are extreme.

They didn’t vote for them to ‘kill’ but to govern and resist as they had the most back bone to do so - they didn’t have much choice at the time to emancipate themselves with. Would Nelson Mandela be deemed a terrorist today for freeing his people? So if Americans vote in their leaders and America goes to war and kills people the American people are held accountable and by your logic deserve collective punishment?
 

They weren’t necessarily cheering the massacring of people although sure some were and that’s sick. But to them what it symbolises was breaking free of Israel’s grip and boot on their necks. They were born into a place they could never leave or were heavily restricted from on the Egypt side. Work permits given in the later years only represent less than 1% of the population and then again - only to benefit Israel as they need the labour, not out of some benevolence.

 

5. If you claim to believe in the law of cause and effect then look at the cause and effect of October 7th - even if it shatters your world view.

6. It was just self created bro 

Edited December 13, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Good luck with understanding the situation when you refuse to confront the emotions 7.10 might bring to you by denying and polishing techniques your mind does for you. After that, how can a fair and serious discussion be done in the first place?

I don’t deny the atrocities or suffering of October 7th. Let’s just not deny what caused that to happen and will continue to make happen if the root cause isn’t fixed - which you think is partly Islam and Palestians ‘self - tyranny’. Even if they do self-tyrannise themselves as you say, why further tyrannise the poor guys on top of it then. Give them a break, give them a chance, give them a state so they can go tyrannise themselves in it and away from Israelis but no - Eretz Israel belongs only to the chosen people.

Maybe you’re not exposed to opposing viewpoints as you live in Israel and within an echo chamber of pro Israeli media. So hearing others views here is like sandpaper to your worldview and it stings to hear but it’s important for Israel’s own good to not become insular and entitled to their vengeful actions.

Israel apologists who are obsessed with Israel’s right to self defence don’t give those same rights of self defence to the very people they occupy and oppress - though they deny occupation and oppression even occur.

Edited December 13, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Merkabah Star said:

@zazen don’t waste your time replying to the troll. This thread is over and out. 

 Just entertainment and some intellectual stimulation at this point lol. Despite the lack of good faith and respect for Palestinian life some decent rebuttals and points are made which I welcome to expand my understanding.

[Nivsch]

@zazen About the war I already explained what I think.

I want to give them a state but they have refused every time.

Again the settlements is a big problem and here this is israel's responsibility. Also to stop arresting children from time to time I don't like it at all.

About the other slogans I am still not convinced and this is all sounds to me like a big balloon with a lot of air in it. I understand this is how they feel but they would feel it anyway as long as Israel exists.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

@Nivsch Yes, it’s important to look into why the proposals for a state have been rejected. This post covers some of it.

On 09/12/2023 at 1:05 PM, zazen said:

I found your response to the video. Lets look at why they refused the proposals by looking at the most generous offer in 2000 being the Camp David one from Ehud Barack. 

1. Barak offered the Palestinians 96% of Israel’s definition of the West Bank, meaning they did not include any of the areas already under Israeli control, such as settlements, the Dead Sea, and large parts of the Jordan Valley. This meant that Barak effectively annexed 10% of the West Bank to Israel, with an additional 8-12% remaining under “temporary” Israeli control for a period of time.

In return for this annexation, Palestinians would be offered 1% of desert land near the Gaza Strip. Thus, Palestinians would need to give up 10% of the most fertile land in the West Bank, in exchange for 1% of desert land. Not to mention that if the past record is any indicator, the additional 8-12% under “temporary” Israeli control would remain so forever.

2. Israel demanded permanent control of Palestinian airspace, three permanent military installations manned by Israeli troops in the West Bank, Israeli presence at Palestinian border crossings, and special “security arrangements” along the borders with Jordan which effectively annexed additional land.

3. Israel would be allowed to invade at any point in cases of “emergency”. As you can imagine, what constituted an emergency was left incredibly vague and up to interpretation. The Palestinian state would be demilitarized, and the Palestinian government would not be able to enter into alliances without Israeli permission. 

4. Regarding Jerusalem,  Israel refused any form of Palestinian sovereignty over the majority of the city, including many Palestinian neighbourhoods.

5. Regarding right of return, it offered a very limited return for a very limited number of refugees over a very long period of time.

None of these are ingredients for the creation of an actual sovereign state which meet the basic definitions of a sovereign state and the minimum international standards of one . The nerve, arrogance and entitlement to displace inhabitants from their land then negotiate with them about their land and offer such proposals is a insult to their dignity and intelligence.

Ultimately, this “generous offer” amounted to turning the West Bank into non-unified districts, crisscrossed by a network of settlements, roads and Israeli areas. Even the supposed “capital” of the Palestinian state would mostly be under Israeli control, with stipulations and conditions that stripped any real sovereignty from any area of the supposed Palestinian “state”.

Not even the sky above Palestinian heads would be under their control, nor the water under their feet, as Israel still demanded access to water resources under the West Bank. Palestinian aspirations cannot be allowed to exceed the ceiling of Israeli's deluded entitlements. Israel is not really conceding anything through these offers; ending its occupation and stopping its settlement activities is merely following international law. It is not a sacrifice - it should be the default position.

This is how all of the “generous” Israeli peace offers play out. The majority of people who hear about this on the news have no clue what the parameters of the offer are. All they hear is that the Palestinians have rejected yet another “peace” initiative by Israel which gets spun as them being stupid bloodthirsty savages. This is why the discourse always focuses on the number of offers, because it distracts from their content and unviability.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by zazen