New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

39 minutes ago, zazen said:

So how were all these Palestinian refugees created?

These refugees who are living in other Arab countries, not in Israel. Do you care about them? Have you bothered to check their conditions?

Is your motivation for advocating for the rights of the Palestinians in Israel in particular, stems from your love to the Palestinians as a group or your hatred towards Israelies?

If you love and care about Palestinians, then you should love and care about all the Palestinians elsewhere and put accountable not only Israel for mistreating them, but all the countries who have them, for mistreating them because they do mistreat them and worse than Israel could ever imagine.

If you care only about the Palestinians in Israel, even though there are other Palestinian refugees in suffering, then it might be because you don't like Israel, and your main motivation is hatred for Israel rather than love for Palestinians.

 

 

 

[kenway]

 

Daniel Levy - former Israeli Advisor on Netanyahu

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by kenway
context

[zazen]

@Lila9  You can’t even answer the question, you just deflect and aren’t  open to others views. Not even discussing just emoting.

You still think I’m an Israeli hater or anti semitic even after I’ve said I believe in Israel’s existence and defence of itself, just not the way it currently exists or is defending itself.

If you keep getting beat up to the point you end up at the hospital and one of your friends asks what happened? How did you end up in hospital? Then another friend comes and says ‘hey that doesn’t matter, what matters is how is your life at the hospital, are they treating you well?’
 

How ignorant would that be? That’s how it sounds when someone asks how were Palestinians made refugees and you respond by asking how are they being treated in there places of refuge.

Im surprised how well Israeli propaganda has worked on Israelis and how the centre of gravity has moved right. The responses confirm what Gideon Levy says. You only have to let Isreal apologists speak to reveal themselves.

@BlueOak Great observation regarding both right and left not being happy with the consequences of Israel’s actions ie more refugees.

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

They didn't welcomed them with "open arms". They were suspicious of them and terrorized them since the presence of the Othman empire because they felt intimidated.

Were they treated worse than Palestinians get treated by Israelis on the West Bank? By that I mean:

Did they kill childreen for fun to test their aim and laugh about it? Did they abduct Jewish childreen and burn them alive? Did they kill people for no reason? Did they put kids in cages in jails for basically no reason? Did they put thousands of kids in jails? Did they destroy their homes and settle there?

And before you say "these did not happen", you can find interntional reports saying so.

Some of the stuff is on footage and I have seen it myself. Horrible stuff.

That are some of the hundreds of atrocities Israelis does in West Bank

If yes then I stand corrected.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

Yes we can all act on emotion. My first thought when I saw this was Israel should occupy Gaza. That was my emotional reaction, it is usually my emotional reaction when I see noncombatants harmed. Thankfully I have distance from it, so I was able to logically look at the problem, and calculate better options. Israel instead, and I understand why, acted purely on emotion, they acted unilaterally, and with no regard for anything else except revenge. Had they sort out military and diplomatic allies, they would have obtained a more logical systematic view from perspectives with distance to the tragedy, which by the way didn't necessarily mean altering what course Israel took. At the minimum, this current military effort would have been more effective with international support and expertise, with fewer economic, diplomatic, or security problems for Israel (and America) in the long term.

I wouldn't say that Israel acted with great wisdom, but I can't say that Israel acted purely on emotions either.

If Israel acted purely on emotions, there was no Palestinian left alive.

On both Gaza and the West Bank. because if Israel's response matched the emotional suffering Israel has experienced because of the October 7 attack, that would be the outcome, no life on Gaza and the West Bank. 

It's easy to judge from outside, when your safety and the safety of your loved ones isn't at risk. It's easy to say, from your pov that you would have done this instead of that, because you are not emotionally involved, because the survival and safety of Israel is not in your best interest. It's just a country with people for you and whether it will be safe or at risk won't affect your life and survival that much.

This is why it's easy for you to talk about logic and cold calculations.

I'm not disrespecting logic and calculations, I think that strategy and certain emotional distance is required to get good results and it's part of the solution. And I think that given the circumstances, Israel's response is quite logical. 

I know that you and others here expect super hero holistic, systemic stage yellow solution to the conflict, coming from Israel, but you need to understand that Israel has limitations as well, Israel's government and army are not yellow to pull of such solutions. There is no government in the world who is like that, currently. Not in your country, and not in any country. That's rare.

A country is considered very lucky if it has at least one person in the government with stage yellow thinking.

Israel's government has mainly blue/orange values while the military has orange values mainly. 

Israel's neighbors are not Sweden or Denmark, so Israel cannot allow themselves to appear too indifferent to terror because this seen as weakness in this region and it's very easily gets exploited.

In fact, Israel's recent indifference until the October 7 attack was what gave Hamas the opportunity to commit the attack. With neighbors such Hamas, you can't get to a peaceful solution, or reconciliation. It's either they win and you lose or you lose and they win.

Israel tried to be peaceful, it didn't work, it made things worse for Israel, it gave Hamas the opportunity to become stronger and become more dangerous.

It's not to say that Israel can't be criticized. That's valid. But there is a serious problem if Israel is the only one who gets critized.

It shows that the criticism is not objective and heavily biased, fueld by ill intentions. 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lila9

[Karmadhi]

@Lila9

40 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Were they treated worse than Palestinians get treated by Israelis on the West Bank? By that I mean:

Did they kill childreen for fun to test their aim and laugh about it? Did they abduct Jewish childreen and burn them alive? Did they kill people for no reason? Did they put kids in cages in jails for basically no reason? Did they put thousands of kids in jails? Did they destroy their homes and settle there?

And before you say "these did not happen", you can find interntional reports saying so.

Some of the stuff is on footage and I have seen it myself. Horrible stuff.

That are some of the hundreds of atrocities Israelis does in West Bank

If yes then I stand corrected.

All of this happened BEFORE October 7th attack and I am not talking about Gaza here.

I dont know what October 7th has to do with any of this.

30 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

military has orange values

Very blue to me. Not red, they seem more of a nazi bullet to the head heartless type and little emotions while Hamas is more emotional, screaming and kills you with a sword. Nazis vs Mongolians. Both are bad of course. But that is my opinion.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Karmadhi

[BlueOak]

@Lila9

YES Its easier to judge from an outside perspective, that's why you go to it for clarity! People with distance are not operating purely on emotion, they can give us a perspective we lack in any situation. That's also why we listen to other people with the opposite view to ours to form a framework to operate out of. That's the whole point! (Its much of the point of life too)

You can obtain near-systematic thinking just by listening to enough perspectives and involving them in the discussion! Because they are the system! Or you can do it all yourself, but like you say fewer people are capable of modeling a situation sufficiently in their mind, and everyone is flawed or more vulnerable to gaps in logic on their own when they try. I can only do it to the degree I've studied and absorbed the subject, usually by encountering people who have challenged my perspective to deepen it. Collectively though you can do it with a group much easier.

Simply. How you get worse results, is just doing what comes into your own head, or even worse what you think is a good idea in the moment. How you get better results is constantly engaging with many other viewpoints on a subject, until you understand it well enough to form a multi-faceted conclusion.

The point is taken that I don't live in the level of fear Israeli's do. That I am not used to the same intensity in our actions here, if anything my bias is near the opposite of intensity, its comfort. But that means I can give you something you currently lack, the completely opposite side of this, not the Palestinian side, the actual opposite. The guy the other side of the world viewing this and deciding what it means going forward in our dealings with your country. The entire world is connected, in so many ways, and you will be affected by the actions you take. - At the bare minimum you get to address how you speak to that voice, you get to begin to form answers to questions you will hear repeated for the next 20, 30, 50 years of your life here and now.

However, as i've said a 100 times, you don't just use the stick on a problem, you use the carrot and the stick. No matter your country's stage of development, that's a universal thing. Unilateral action by a state rarely works out for the best, for anyone, including the state itself. 

Now what else do you want me to say about Palestinians to make you feel better, if that is possible, I can try.
Other than Hamas have caused their entire country to fall apart and their homeland to burn? What other criticism is needed? 
This whole if you are not with us you are against us, is a deep problem you have personally and collectively. To some people, it would create enemies where none exist. To me, I just see it as your pain expressed, and the suffering you've endured looking for an outlet, and for that, you have my deepest sympathies. I hope when this all ends, life is better, despite all my pessimism and seeing cycles repeat.

[Karmadhi]

31 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

There is no government in the world who is like that, currently. Not in your country, and not in any country. That's rare.

Sure, but I do heavily feel Israel can do much better than Benjamin and Ben Gavir in government.

[Lila9]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

@Lila9  You can’t even answer the question, you just deflect and aren’t  open to others views. Not even discussing just emoting.

You still think I’m an Israeli hater or anti semitic even after I’ve said I believe in Israel’s existence and defence of itself, just not the way it currently exists or is defending itself.

If you keep getting beat up to the point you end up at the hospital and one of your friends asks what happened? How did you end up in hospital? Then another friend comes and says ‘hey that doesn’t matter, what matters is how is your life at the hospital, are they treating you well?’
 

How ignorant would that be? That’s how it sounds when someone asks how were Palestinians made refugees and you respond by asking how are they being treated in there places of refuge.

Im surprised how well Israeli propaganda has worked on Israelis and how the centre of gravity has moved right. The responses confirm what Gideon Levy says. You only have to let Isreal apologists speak to reveal themselves.

@BlueOak Great observation regarding both right and left not being happy with the consequences of Israel’s actions ie more refugees.

I asked you a question first and you haven't answered it, so you are not in a place to say that I don't answer your questions. Answer my question first and then I will answer yours, I really want to know. Do you care about other Palestinians outside of Israel territory? Or do you close your eyes to the mistreatment of Palestinians outside of Israel because they are mistreated by non Israelies?

If you say that Israel doesn't have the right to exist because of the way it exists now, for me it means that you believe Israel has no right to exist. You can't sugarcoat it. You've tried I know, but your truth is obvious for me. No more word games are required.

Are there more countries you believe have no right to exist the way they exist? Or Israel is the only one?

If Israel's existence is not in your best interest, and you consume this great amount of cherry picked content on social media to rationalize your bias, I don't think that you are in a place to call me a propagandist.

This is very childish and disrespectful indeed, to call someone you don't agree with a propagandist. It also shows that you don't want to learn and make a productive discussion with those whose their lives are directly affected by the conflict. It seems you just want to hold your bias close to your chest, and it also seems that you have the arrogance to look from the far distance and cancel our perspective completely by calling it a propaganda just because it doesn't match your bias.

I speak my very reality and the reality of people here who care about Israel and love it. We are mainly fueled by love to Israel, not by hatred to Palestinians. This is the motivation.

Don't fool yourself by calling your opinions objective and more logical, because your opinions about the conflict based on emotional motivation. Behind logic there are emotional motivations.

This is why I asked you what I asked you, to understand your fundamental emotional motivation of your opinions about the conflict, is this love or hatred?

I'm aware of the flaws of Israel and the problems here, it's not perfect, but it's not the demon you draw.

There is no shame in emotions and love, I didn't know that it's a crime to support the country I live in and I also didn't know that you are holding the ultimate truth and everything that doesn't match your biased and limited perspective is a propaganda.

I don't try to convince you in my truth, I'm fine with you thinking differently than me, and feeling differently than me, I share what I know, take it or leave it.

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Were they treated worse than Palestinians get treated by Israelis on the West Bank? By that I mean:

Did they kill childreen for fun to test their aim and laugh about it? Did they abduct Jewish childreen and burn them alive? Did they kill people for no reason? Did they put kids in cages in jails for basically no reason? Did they put thousands of kids in jails? Did they destroy their homes and settle there?

And before you say "these did not happen", you can find interntional reports saying so.

Some of the stuff is on footage and I have seen it myself. Horrible stuff.

That are some of the hundreds of atrocities Israelis does in West Bank

If yes then I stand corrected.

They did even worse than that to Jews, and if they could they would have done more. October 7 was the peak of it. They literally shot living people genitals and breasts, shot parents in front of their children and vise versa, gang raped women and burned living people. The level of cruelty can't really be comparible. You compare cases of a few radical Jews which saddens most of the Israelies given that it really happened, to a terror policy against Jews and Israel that many Palestinians, if not the majority of the Palestinians, were ok with and celebrated on the streets.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Lila9

[kenway]

8 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

They did even worse than that to Jews, and if they could they would have done more. October 7 was the peak of it. They literally shot living people genitals and breasts, shot kids in front of their children and vise versa, gang raped women and burned living people. The level of cruelty can't really be comparible.

Oh please. Just stop already. You're embarrassing yourself. 90% of what you have just written is objective dogshit.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by kenway

[Leo Gura]

@kenway Watch your language and tone.

[Lila9]

@BlueOak 

I don't need you to condemn Hamas just to make me feel good if you don't genuinely feel that way. It doesn't matter, it won't change anything.

You are entitled to your opinions.

Say what you want to say, and I will express my perspective.

You shared your thoughts on what Israel should have done, and I responded from my point of view. You can agree or disagree.

I understand that you value your perspective more because you identify as stage yellow, capable of considering various perspectives.

You might be right, wrong, or a mix of both. Whatever.

I want to emphasize again that what you see from a distance may not necessarily reflect what is happening here, for better or worse. Be open to the possibility that your distance can be both a disadvantage and an advantage.

[kenway]

@Lila9

I apologise. I didn't mean to come off as being disrespectful. I have concerns with the validity of your information and bias, but I'm sorry for my choice of language.

[jaylimix]

15 hours ago, zazen said:

You're still spewing your hate. You're either trolling, deluded, or a recruit from the Israeli propaganda department known as Hasbara who volunteer to go on social media platforms to disseminate pro Israeli talking points and participate on forums and blogs. 

Second time you guys quoted me as saying "I don't care about dead Palestinian children".

Well I have made my position clear, I do not care about Palestinian lives, for the reasons I mentioned also in this thread.

You Anti Israel peeps kept saying that people like me are paid to go on social media, look, the only people getting paid are the people who works under the Israeli government e.g. Eylon Levy as paid spokesperson, some random guy like me is not employed, and I doubt there is even such a thing as Hasbara as you mentioned.

Question then is why do I speak up for the Israelis and Jews who makes up the minority on social media?

Because I feel their suffering, caused by the Oct 7th atrocities and the secondary hurt caused by the world's behavior, that's why I spoke up for them, because their voices are few and they feel the world is against them, that is why I am motivated to have their backs.

[kenway]

 

[jaylimix]

12 hours ago, Raze said:

Haaretz is not a mouthpiece of “the enemy”, it is the oldest Israeli newspaper. The first responder organization there also said the claim is false.

I’m open to being wrong, so what is your evidence the oven baby situation happened? 

I really don’t see how 1 or 2 is that different, both situations are knowingly burning children alive.

You are not open to change your mind, and 1 and 2 are not knowingly burning children alive, number 2 is intentional murder, but number 1 is like:
"fck you Pali, imma throw a this into your window".

The intention is to hurt, but it is debatable whether the intention is to kill or not, look, the one doing the throwing doesn't care who they hurt or whether the Molotov cocktail would kill, he just doesn't care. Number 1 is worse than number 2.

I have already shown you what the first responder said, what he has seen with his own eyes.

[BlueOak]

20 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

@BlueOak 

I don't need you to condemn Hamas just to make me feel good if you don't genuinely feel that way. It doesn't matter, it won't change anything.

You are entitled to your opinions.

Say what you want to say, and I will express my perspective.

You shared your thoughts on what Israel should have done, and I responded from my point of view. You can agree or disagree.

I understand that you value your perspective more because you identify as stage yellow, capable of considering various perspectives.

You might be right, wrong, or a mix of both. Whatever.

I want to emphasize again that what you see from a distance may not necessarily reflect what is happening here, for better or worse. Be open to the possibility that your distance can be both a disadvantage and an advantage.

@Lila9
I also apologize if I am coming across as too logical rather than emotional or understanding of your emotional state. I have a bias towards wanting to avoid aggression and violence. So any lessening of it I can inspire in anyone, I will usually go out of my way to do. In whatever form works.

I do not say things I don't honestly feel or mean. My words only have value if they are truthfully what I am thinking or feeling. The power is mostly with you all, not Hamas currently, they are almost powerless in pure reaction to survive but I think you all feel that way too. Perhaps the energy and focus is best put in showing you that you do have options, power, and a real say in how this goes. Survival thinking is not your only option, you did (and still do have a few allies left willing to help), though you are creating the pure isolationism you feel to be reflected in the world around you. That is a choice on your part, and I wish at least you could understand that you help create and shape the wider reality you experience going forward.

[jaylimix]

6 hours ago, zazen said:

Yes, they may have started that way but don’t stay that way - as occupations - especially not in the modern world where standards have changed.

How could Jews be occupiers when they are indigenous to the land ? 

The Palestinians, who are descendants of Arab Muslim invaders/merchants are not indigenous and therefore are occupying Jewish land, they are the real occupiers.

[Raze]

15 minutes ago, jaylimix said:

You are not open to change your mind, and 1 and 2 are not knowingly burning children alive, number 2 is intentional murder, but number 1 is like:
"fck you Pali, imma throw a this into your window".

The intention is to hurt, but it is debatable whether the intention is to kill or not, look, the one doing the throwing doesn't care who they hurt or whether the Molotov cocktail would kill, he just doesn't care. Number 1 is worse than number 2.

I have already shown you what the first responder said, what he has seen with his own eyes.

1. He clarified he didn’t know what happened to the baby 

https://www.sportskeeda.com/pop-culture/news-did-hamas-bake-baby-oven-claim-explored-israeli-first-responder-s-claim-sparks-outrage-online

2. If you throw a lethal weapon at someone, you intend to kill them whether you say it or not.