New War In Israel / Gaza

[Twentyfirst]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

You are enormously underestimate the survival position Israel is found in.

This is not only the physical survival as much as its identity survival according to the feeling and knowing we are so much better than those terorrists as we holds our values too, but when your friends and family who hold similar values don't believe you, and you have to prove them all when the virus took over you made them believe him(!) again and again.

Dont take this words in a strict logical way but as an emotional metaphor to show the existential psychological serious crisis Israel is found in which is very real, and not less painful than if it was only a physical one.

Then you will be in a position to understand better why her brakes are looser now against this virus (hamas).

Yes all the Israelis are so threatened that they are online posting long sentiments 

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Nabd said:

What Israelis and Palestinians don't like to acknowledge:

 

No wonder he was sacked

 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

How can the world expect Hamas to live peacefully alongside their invaders? 

The propaganda is they never tell you who started this whole thing and who is reacting 

Nice worded rebuttal

3 hours ago, BlueOak said:

In their mind, they are not terrorists but fighting outside invaders. Why is it you can't see that one action creates the consequences of the next? Why do you think everything happens in a vacuum?

Any excuse? There is an ethnic cleansing going on nearby. If that happened in Europe you can be sure we'd be up in arms. Russia tried a horrific but different version of destroying a culture or way of life they didn't like, and united almost the whole continent against them.

100%

[zazen]

@Vrubel @Nivsch @hundreth @Lila9 and anyone else who enthusiastically supports Israel.

 

A love letter to Israel (with humour, hope and good faith) - Osama Bin Shapiro 

Speaking on being strategic and whats in Israel's best interest. It's probably in Israel's best interest to not take their cue from America in how to deal with the war on terror through bombardments. A chihuahua can't learn from and act like the Pitbull that claims to have its back. America has a geography blessed with vast seas on its sides, a ally to its North and a weak neutral nation to its South that geopolitically insulates it from its foreign adventures. It can go around bombarding regions and barely have any repercussion - Europe bears the brunt of the cost via the refugee crises caused by these wars. I would offer my cousin Aladdin's flying carpet for escape but your state carpet bombed it.

First, make sure not to deny the facts corroborated by international state bodies and human rights organisations on Israel's situation. Move the sideburn curls away from the ears and listen to the world. What you deem labels such as occupation, apartheid lite and discriminatory security structures are realities for millions of Palestinians. Occupation doesn't mean the most literal definition of the word like when you go to the toilet it says occupied by someone sitting on it - Israeli's don't have to be sitting on Palestinians laps in Gaza eating Baklava to claim occupation or defecating on their land - they can be occupied externally by controls of their border, sea and airspace depriving, dehumanising and un-dignifying them.

Israel should avoid being duped by neo con evangelical interests who portray themselves to be on Israel's side but fill their pockets from war profits at the cost of Israeli/Palestinians filling their graveyards with bodies and who's pockets are filled with nothing, but instead get eviscerated by the burns from bomb blasts and the white phosphorus that US provides Israel. Deep down they wish to see their demented prophecies of Armageddon and the return of Jesus manifest - like wise for the fundamentalists of Judaism and Islam of which the former wants to hasten the Messiah and the latter their Mahdi for the 'great battle' after which Islam prevails.

Israel acting the way America does in response to 'terror' endangers it in a way America acting that way doesn't. Israel sits by itself in a angered region. Israel's actions have enraged the Global South and domestic Westerners which are its own allies. Even Western media outlets critique Israel's actions as they are unable to keep up with propaganda that gets shred by the advent of social media and alternative media. Their are limits to Americas interests - they can't just bankroll the expulsion of 2.3million people and destruction of their homes with the current technology that allows the world to see it and feel it.

It's not just the scale of destruction (more than 50% of homes destroyed) and civilian death (children and women) but the timescale of it (in the span of 2 months) that puts this conflict in a terrible light and moral standing for Israel. Israel are losing the sympathy of the world in real time - it may think it can win the battle but definitely not the War. Footprints disappear but good luck dealing with the digital footprint of massacre that don't as easily for decades to come and the constant hostility that brings with it globally - but we're meant to think this onslaught makes the Jewish diaspora feel safer.

''Western public has lost all its appetite for war. All the careful sanitising, video-gamifying and propagandizing that has been put in place since Vietnam in order to build a platform of consent for “humanitarian” wars has cratered into nothing. You can’t have a up close screening of the reality of bombs and all the things they do to human flesh and then go back to the way you were ever again. Millions of western eyes have been changed forever.''

Those to whole evil is done, do evil in return. Israel not only defends itself but has the strategy to establish deterrence capacity - deterrence by definition is supposed to be disproportionate to scare off / terrorise hostility (de facto terrorism in policy) but only causes further hostility and terrorism. Deterrence through strength means being strong, not necessarily flexing that strength on your neighbours like a narcissistic school bully which radicalises them towards you.

If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. Resistance movements are built on the blood of martyrs which Israel ensures a continual supply of. Their called grassroots movements for a reason - you can't get rid of them unless you poison the soil ie genocide, expulsion or brutal subjugation. Ironically a used phrase to describe Israeli operations is 'mowing the grass'  which is  periodic to keep resistance checked. But this resistance will never stop unless the soil is destroyed because its the soil (people) that keeps the grass (resistance) growing. 

Everything Israel obtains through oppression is inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. And when that oppression is resisted as it always has been, that resistance will firstly be gaslighted as barbaric terrorism from savages and secondly will be used to feed the fear of safety needed to maintain that cycle, a cycle set in motion by the aggressor who attempts to reverse the role of victim and victimizer, aggressor and defender in a bid to clean its global image and standing and not lose support from its main benefactor being the US. 

But The US can't be stained with the sticker of ethnic cleansing and more blood than it already has and that the world has become sick of. They most likely won't continue to bankroll this or else the current party risk political suicide- and if you lose US support domestically, politically and economically you become very lonely in a neighbourhood you can't afford to be lonely in. This is where Israel's arrogance and entitlement is its downfall - a level of arrogance and entitlement shared by your habibi - Bibi Satanyahu. Ultra-Zionist aspirations are limited by the ceiling that is the Palestinians suffering that the world will not stand by.

If lobby interests, the state and the military industrial complex go ahead and get involved despite domestic disapproval anyway - this will suck Hezbollah and other actors into the war - world war 3 is here and we'll probably be too busy to rendezvous on forums like this.

You reap what you sow - you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind - and in the Middle East if you sow the wind you reap the sandstorm that blinds you from humanity and chokes the throats from which their should be uttered words of peace and a breaking of bread eaten at the table together alongside local Judean olive oil and hummus.

Peace for all though for real, inshallah. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

That virus was created by Israel s policies, nothing else.

Partially. 

You just now dumped the responsibility fully on Israel, because then you don't need to understand its perspective any more.

Again, hamas ideology has deeper roots been expressed also in 1920s and 1930s before Israel was established,

But even if I go with you and say theoretically this is "only" israel's fault (whats wrong but say for a moment it is)...

Do you expect Israel a tier 2 understanding and then attacks Israel and let it be thrown under the bus because it failed to understand the situation to a tier 2 level?

It is interesting, there are other societies you hold to such high standarts? or this is the case only when it comes to Israel?

Can you see how much this is a clever defence mechanism against any possibility of really listening to Israel's perspective?

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

What you deem labels such as occupation

Almost every country started its life with an occupation.

But only Israel is blamed for that. Sorry I don't buy it. The answer to that you will have to find in psychology and spirituality books, not in history.

You could be fair and critisize the settlement in a constructive way.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

 

3 hours ago, zazen said:

It's not just the scale of destruction

I answered here:

 

3 hours ago, zazen said:

flexing that strength on your neighbours like a narcissistic school bully

Thats not what Israel want to do. See Israel's far reaching pragmatic steps in the last 5 years including the billion of dollars invested in a smart fence and all of that to avoid unecessary wars in all cost.

The rest: I understand you feel pain from the situation, and I agree with you that Israel policy with the settlements is part of the problem, and also the overall relation and behaviour to the palestinians have to improve. But I don't agree with 90% of the critisizm about this war because of the explanation I linked to.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Almost every country started its life with an occupation.

But only Israel is blamed for that. Sorry I don't buy it. The answer to that you will have to find in psychology and spirituality books, not in history

Yes, they may have started that way but don’t stay that way - as occupations - especially not in the modern world where standards have changed.

So how long will it remain so and how does it end? With ethnic cleaning so there’s no one left to occupy or equal rights on one land or giving Palestinians a viable sovereign state that meets the international standards of one which every previous offer hasn’t and for that reason they are rejected.

We are on the same page as in we both want peace and Israel to exist - the difference is in how you think you get to peace and the current strategy you think brings peace maybe doesn’t.
 

Israel’s trying to answer a political problem with a military solution. As you refer to Hamas as a virus - it seems the current vaccine of disproportionate warfare being used against this 'virus' will not be effective.

People oppose the remains of historical oppressive systems, discriminatory practices, and a security apparatus established during the founding of Israel or any nation with messy foundations as these remains are viewed as lingering traces of that initial colonialism or birth of that nation.

The remains of past colonialism that are unjust can't exist in a post colonial world just as the unjust parts of religion and tradition can't exist in a post religious and post traditional world.

 

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Thats not what Israel want to do. See Israel's far reaching pragmatic steps in the last 5 years including the billion of dollars invested in a smart fence and all of that to avoid unecessary wars in all cost.

This.

If to look at facts rather than bias and imagination we can see that Israel doesn't want wars but peace and safety. Israel wants to be left alone and thrive for the sake of it, like any other western country.

While the other side wants to take all of Israel by eliminating everyone in it to build a toxic Islamic state.

It doesn't want to develop, evolve spiritually, have a quality life, peace, happiness. It rejects science, human rights, any values which are not Muslim and religious.

It could have done that, if it invested the billions poured into Palestine to thrive rather than starting wars.

Seems like it only wants to die, kill and destroy. It can't bear the thought of development or evolving. It clings to ill feelings from the past, can't see beyond its hatred and contempt to Israel, Jews, America, the west. 

Too proud and arrogant, couldn't understand that there is much greater suffering in the world, that there are nations who faced much more brutality than they could ever imagine during the entire human history.

That they are themselves the offspring of one of the greatest agressors in the world.

And the efforts to compare the Nakba to the Holocaust, are so manipulative and insulting.

It wasn't even 1% of the holocaust, or any other real genocide in the history.

Yes, it was sad and humiliating, Muslims have pride, I get it, but they are not the first ones loosing their homes and not the last ones, and just because their granny lost his property somewhere in 1948 doesn't mean that they are entitled to kill innocents like ISIS.

 

[Lila9]

What about the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Syria, Jordon, Labanon?

Or other non Palestinian refugees in the world? Anybody cares about them? 

Or they are not important enough? 😕

[Lila9]

6 hours ago, Ash55 said:

actually the west is acting like 6 yo and the middle east like 4 yo

Yes lol

But better to be 6 than 4.

6 hours ago, Ash55 said:

war is radicalizing both side, if we just made isreal and palatines one secular country fair for everyone, that gonna solve the problem, i understand the suffering of both sides and the west is using jews as a tool to project power into the middle east, and how Israel started with nakba is not a very peaceful start too
 

Hamas is the one who always starting the wars with Israel. 

6 hours ago, Ash55 said:

are you an israeli @Lila9  for defending israel like that ?
am not blaming you i  just wanna understand where you came from

Yes I am. My perspective and the perspective of other Israelies here is valid.

Just because we live here doesn't mean that our perspective isn't valid or 'too biased' to be taken seriously.

I will keep to talk enthusiastically about the truth that I see and experience, and gladly share it.

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

29 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

What about the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Syria, Jordon, Labanon?

Or other non Palestinian refugees in the world? Anybody cares about them? 

Or they are not important enough? 😕

 

[Lila9]

7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Two things

1) From a self-preservation standpoint knowing your neighbors, why are you catering to their most dangerous and worst tendencies?

2) Yes. And Israel has given them hundreds of thousands more recruits, an excuse to do what they are doing, and legitimacy for a more extreme position or government.

In their mind, they are not terrorists but fighting outside invaders. Why is it you can't see that one action creates the consequences of the next? Why do you think everything happens in a vacuum?

Any excuse? There is an ethnic cleansing going on nearby. If that happened in Europe you can be sure we'd be up in arms. Russia tried a horrific but different version of destroying a culture or way of life they didn't like, and united almost the whole continent against them.

1. What else can be done? There were great attempts of Israel to make peace but they still wanted to destroy Israel, even more than ever. No matter what is done to improve the situation, they always want to destroy.

2. They abuse Israel because they are fueled by toxic ideology, by low and destructive values. There was peace before the October 7 attack. They ruined it. They don't give a fuck about peace, unfortunately.

Don't you understand that not everything in life can be explained by logic? That humans are irrational creatures? That not everything in life can be explained by cause and effect?

That there is devilry in the world which is fueled by irrational and toxic beliefs which cannot be resolved by tolerating it and giving the other cheek?

 

 

[Lila9]

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Many chose to immigrate to Israel. And that was indeed wrong.

They were kiked out as a "revenge".

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

They do it against Palestinians, people that welcomed them with open arms when their precious European friends were wiping them out.

Palestinians treated Jews living there 1000x better than Europeans did for centuries yet the ones that had their land stolen and were oppressed/murdered were Palestinians. Talk about justice...

They didn't welcomed them with "open arms". They were suspicious of them and terrorized them since the presence of the Othman empire because they felt intimidated.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

15 hours ago, zazen said:

It seems you as well as many others think that just because you or Israeli society are higher up on spiral dynamics or 'developed'  this means you are better and immune to becoming a dark version of your stages and that allows Israel or developed societies the right to do as they please akin to a colonial mindset. It is flawed to frame it as 'children of light vs darkness' or 'Western democratic angels' vs 'Middle Eastern authoritarian devils' .

You can still be violent and tribal - you just tribalize around and be violent in the name of and for a different set of ‘higher’ values.

Developed groups still have the ancient instincts we finger point less developed groups for acting upon, and the more developed groups can just pull at those instincts in different unassuming ways. 

Yet, with all of your wording, it summes up to a war of values.

Living in a society with stage red values vs stage orange, I don't even need to explain what are the differences because I assume you know, and which is better to live in. Relatively, not ideally. If you have to choose, most likely it would be orange.

And it's not wise to be letinant with stage red. This is the flaw of green, this demonization of self defense, of having healthy bounderies, of being ruthless with those who are ruthless with you.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

 

It lights up not only this thread but the entire forum 🕎🌞

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

What about the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Syria, Jordon, Labanon?

Or other non Palestinian refugees in the world? Anybody cares about them? 

Or they are not important enough? 😕

So how were all these Palestinian refugees created?

 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

It lights up not only this thread but the entire forum 🕎🌞

I think this thread is already challenging enough goal to light 🤣😂

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nivsch

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

1. What else can be done? There were great attempts of Israel to make peace but they still wanted to destroy Israel, even more than ever. No matter what is done to improve the situation, they always want to destroy.

2. They abuse Israel because they are fueled by toxic ideology, by low and destructive values. There was peace before the October 7 attack. They ruined it. They don't give a fuck about peace, unfortunately.

Don't you understand that not everything in life can be explained by logic? That humans are irrational creatures? That not everything in life can be explained by cause and effect?

That there is devilry in the world which is fueled by irrational and toxic beliefs which cannot be resolved by tolerating it and giving the other cheek?

 

 

1) We already had this discussion:

Yes Hamas wanted to destroy you. Very true. They committed a horrific act. What was Israel's response? A horrific act of greater magnitude.

Someone else would just argue morals with you, i'm not that person. I can use that if affects you, to say you are as bad as they are, worse right now. But what does that matter to your life tomorrow practically? The point I am making, is this action is going to harm your country more than help your country. I am trying to appeal to your survival instinct and self-interest. Trying to show you a larger picture, where isolationism or unilateralism is causing the world itself to split apart, country by country, groups internally inside those countries fracturing, and turning individuals against each other.

Yes we can all act on emotion. My first thought when I saw this was Israel should occupy Gaza. That was my emotional reaction, it is usually my emotional reaction when I see noncombatants harmed. Thankfully I have distance from it, so I was able to logically look at the problem, and calculate better options. Israel instead, and I understand why, acted purely on emotion, they acted unilaterally, and with no regard for anything else except revenge. Had they sort out military and diplomatic allies, they would have obtained a more logical systematic view from perspectives with distance to the tragedy, which by the way didn't necessarily mean altering what course Israel took. At the minimum, this current military effort would have been more effective with international support and expertise, with fewer economic, diplomatic, or security problems for Israel (and America) in the long term.

For the same reason you say humans act irrationally, is the same reason I say they can act rationally. Its a choice you make every day. Often times we are faced with it. Acting purely on emotion results in terrible consequences for our personal lives, and the breakdown of social order. Putting us in jail as an example, or causing relationships of all kinds to break apart when they don't need to. In this case, it results in mass murder, going both ways.

2) Yes Hamas have caused Palestine a great deal of suffering, their actions in response to a chain of choices, have brought about the ruin of their homeland. Again you can see this highlighted in front of you, yet you cannot accept the opposite. You can't see that this sort of closed-loop thinking will result in an obvious consequence of further and now magnified violence towards you and your country. I will repeat, it will cause further security issues, fear/social repression, diplomatic issues, issues with your trade and economy, and yes a wealth of people now willing to throw rockets or bombs into your homeland for the next generations. - In some ways Iran's got exactly what it wants, making you a clear enemy of BRICS in a heavily contested region of the world, and turning most popular opinion against you. On the extreme end, I would not be surprised if Israel became a proxy war within my lifetime, slightly hyperbolic but not much with the pace of BRICS development in that region, and the waning international support that accompanies unilateral military actions.

Edited December 12, 2023 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

What about the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Syria, Jordon, Labanon?

Or other non Palestinian refugees in the world? Anybody cares about them? 

Or they are not important enough? 😕

Part of the reason people on the right are beginning to hate Israel is. They are causing 2 million more refugees. So yes they think about it, but not in the way you think they do. The populist left and even the center, lost the argument you are trying to argue against, its all about self-interest now. I will say racists, nationalists but even more people who just hate migrants (programmed to domestically, turning anger away from economic realities or challenges), are starting to turn against Israel, because they link up what you are doing with problems they are facing themselves. What's 2 million split 20 ways? 100k a piece. Those 20 countries will get the majority of the migrants eventually through the gradual relocation of families, often 'encouraged' by the neighboring states.

So you will cause them 100,000 new migrants. You might say not all will leave, you only leveled half the land. Okay. 50,000 if you manage to limit the war to that single region, somewhat unlikely at this amount of regional tension. You already see people fearmongering about the border and Palestinians entering countries ahead of time, because the people doing it want to get the message out now. So around the globe for right-wingers who hate migration, and people who understand social issues, you are giving everyone the social and economic burden of your actions.

And BTW even if its 5 migrants, the right will still magnify that to be an invading horde for their own propaganda these days.
 

Edited December 12, 2023 by BlueOak