New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

6 hours ago, jaylimix said:

I am NOT a Jew, Israeli, Arab, or a Muslim, for me there is no veil of self-bias, threat of career destruction, or financial incentive.

By default this already makes me a better judger of the situation, and I stand with Israel.

I get you. You have a common sense and you are able to see the big picture and understand that it's a war of barbaric values against more conscious ones.

And you prefer the conscious ones, obviously, because that's how society evolve.

You are on the sane spectrum of humanity.

[Lila9]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement

There are Yemeni terrorists who bomb ships with goods coming to Israel. And bomb Israel from the southern side. They are doing that everyday.

Their moto is:

"Death to America, death to Israel, curse on the Jews and victory to Islam"

Same values as... Hamas.

They are responsible for the expulsion of the last Jewish families in Yemen.

And they are not occupied by Jews.

Any excuses to their toxic ideology, antisemitism, anti American agenda, and Muslim superiority agenda?

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

850,000,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries. In 1948, their homes were occupied by Muslim Arabs in the middle east and North Africa. Not to mention all the territory and homes Jews lost during the WW2 across Europe.

Could they just go and commit terror attacks against innocent Arabs across the middle east? Across Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen? 

Across Europe? Germany, Poland?

Could they just go and rape them, burn them and kidnap them? Would that be a legitimate resistance?

If Israel doesn't belong to Jews, then these territories across the middle east and Europe which were occupied by Muslims and Christians must belong to them. No? There was a time when their grandparents or great-grandparents lived there, even though they never lived there themselves, but according to the Palestinian logic, it must belong to them if their grandparents used to live there. No?

If Jews should leave Israel and Free Palestine 'from the river to the sea' (Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea btw, for those who have no idea what river and what sea) is that mean that the Jewish occupied homes across the middle east, Europe and North Africa should be free too? 🤔

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Lila9

[Karmadhi]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Def not.

So justice is biased if you are Israel?

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, jaylimix said:

Personally I have never known a war as moral as this one.

Telling civilians to move south also meant telling the enemy where you want to strike, giving them the advance whilst disadvantaged yourself.

Opening up humanitarian corridors, helping babies in incubators to move.

I conclude the IDF is the most moral army in the world.

The 18.000 civilian dead shows otherwise.

Ukraine war happening for 2 years and 10.000 civilians dead from 40 milion population.

Here 2 months and 2x dead out of a population 20 times smaller.

Apparently I found a more moral war   

[zazen]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:03 AM, jaylimix said:

I completely reject the death toll coming out from Gaza Health Ministry and so should you all reading this.

The GHM is under Hamas' controlled, who uses the death toll as war propaganda, where they specifically highlight a high number of dead children.

And let us not forget the combatants' death toll, rats who hides underground, whos death matters less than literal rats.

Israel is NOT evil, they do care about civilians, asking them to mouth south, calling off airstrikes if there are too many civilians around.

The same cannot be said about me, I don't care about dead Palestinian children.

You're still spewing your hate. You're either trolling, deluded, or a recruit from the Israeli propaganda department known as Hasbara who volunteer to go on social media platforms to disseminate pro Israeli talking points and participate on forums and blogs. 

Theirs quite a difference noticed between people who tend to lean towards Israel or Palestine - it seems Israeli propaganda has gone so far up your butt hole in dehumanising the other side.  

Israel apologists throw up every distraction and red herring they can think of to try and drag opposition to Israel’s mass atrocities off course. 'Most moral army of the world', 'fight of light vs darkness', 'stop criticizing Israel’s actions. look over there, not over here at our massacring.'

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

8 hours ago, Vrubel said:

The whole point now - because of the attack - it is not about politics anymore but about raw survival for Israel.

Do you know what raw survival is?

It is when your enemy can take over your country and wipe out all your people.

Do you really believe Hamas could have taken over Israel?

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

I get you. You have a common sense and you are able to see the big picture and understand that it's a war of barbaric values against more conscious ones.

And you prefer the conscious ones, obviously, because that's how society evolve.

You are on the sane spectrum of humanity.

It seems you as well as many others think that just because you or Israeli society are higher up on spiral dynamics or 'developed'  this means you are better and immune to becoming a dark version of your stages and that allows Israel or developed societies the right to do as they please akin to a colonial mindset. It is flawed to frame it as 'children of light vs darkness' or 'Western democratic angels' vs 'Middle Eastern authoritarian devils' .

You can still be violent and tribal - you just tribalize around and be violent in the name of and for a different set of ‘higher’ values.

Developed groups still have the ancient instincts we finger point less developed groups for acting upon, and the more developed groups can just pull at those instincts in different unassuming ways. 

You can be a stage green eco terrorist denying the sanctity of human life viewing it as a virus or plague on gaia / mother earth or a stage orange capitalist that though doesn't conquer lands (like stage red) on the geopolitical chess board but now conquers consumers through commerce from within the board room of corporations. A greedy stage red conquerer rapes and pillages land whilst a greedy stage orange capitalist conquers the wallets of consumers and pillages the soul for materialist gain. Similar dynamic unfolding in different ways.

Is a broken orange/green society still better than a healthy red/blue society? Possibly, but a more developed society also has more powerful tools with more leverage and potential for destruction which could make them more of a threat to world peace. A stage red primitive tribe might be sick and dangerous but their destruction will only be localised/limited to their village surroundings whilst a stage orange techno-capitalist superpower though having more inclusive and broader values including democracy and science can inflict a larger negative global impact if this stage becomes sick, pathological or unhealthily manifest.

A highly developed society generally has more powerful instruments / tools, but if the individuals of that society become unhealthy their potential for chaos is greater. The individual and wielder of the tool needs to be just as developed - a parallel match between the individuals development and the tools his developed society bestows him - because the stakes are higher. A sick red society may only cause ripples on the world stage due to their limited tools of power but a developed orange society with more powerful tools will cause a tsunami of damage which is what we’ve seen in the 21st century.

We can use spiral dynamics to make sense of the world or make our sense of self more righteous in relationship to others lower on the spiral.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

850,000,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries. In 1948, their homes were occupied by Muslim Arabs in the middle east and North Africa

Many chose to immigrate to Israel. And that was indeed wrong.

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Could they just go and commit terror attacks against innocent Arabs across the middle east? Across Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen? 

They do it against Palestinians, people that welcomed them with open arms when their precious European friends were wiping them out.

Palestinians treated Jews living there 1000x better than Europeans did for centuries yet the ones that had their land stolen and were oppressed/murdered were Palestinians. Talk about justice...

[zazen]

@Karmadhi @Lila9 Very sad on both sides what happened. It’s almost like a tit for tat in terms of the almost equal number displaced.

Zionist memes trying to “debunk” this historical fact of the Nakba often begin their population tables after 1948. The term Nakba is even legislatively banned from Israeli school textbooks.
 

 

And no this wasn’t sourced from ‘untrustworthy’ Al Jazeera but from Jewish virtual library. 
 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present?utm_content=cmp-true

Edited December 12, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Do you know what raw survival is?

It is when your enemy can take over your country and wipe out all your people.

Do you really believe Hamas could have taken over Israel?

You are enormously underestimate the survival position Israel is found in.

This is not only the physical survival as much as its identity survival according to the feeling and knowing we are so much better than those terorrists as we holds our values too, but when your friends and family who hold similar values don't believe you, and you have to prove them all when the virus took over you made them believe him(!) again and again.

Dont take this words in a strict logical way but as an emotional metaphor to show the existential psychological serious crisis Israel is found in which is very real, and not less painful than if it was only a physical one.

Then you will be in a position to understand better why her brakes are looser now against this virus (hamas).

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

This is not only the physical survival as much as its identity survival according to the feeling and knowing we are so much better than those terorrists as we holds our values too, but when your friends and family doesnt believe you and you have to prove them all when the virus took over you made them believe him(!) again and again.

That virus was created by Israel s policies, nothing else.

Israel basically bullied someone for decades and now when they get hit back hard they start crying about it.

Hamas is indeed a virus, but it is a Israeli created virus.

Do you want me to send you the old videos of Benjamin saying we need Hamas in Gaza because it aids our own rule? 

Videos from some years ago.

If you want I will try to find them for you.

 

[BlueOak]

16 hours ago, jaylimix said:

It's more like I couldn't care less about the Palestinians.

The Palestinians created Hamas to fight and kill for them, and kill they did, brutally. 

You can see videos of them cheering for the death of Israelis, a recent poll also shows their support for Hamas.

And they started the first domino. It's all a self created reality.

Collectively punishing them is justified, though I can see that Israel is not actually doing that.

Of course its a self-created reality, you don't see me showing much surprise overall. Now Israel is creating what comes next. You can see the past but I don't understand why you can't see how this creates the next great tragedy. When it happens i'll be saying they helped create it, and all these people with moral outrage will be saying 'oh how can you say that'. I'll be sitting here having to talk to people trying to delude themselves that they had no hand or choice in it in, like it all just happened to them.

And BTW a recent poll. Yes if Israel bomb someone, they don't like them, and join any group resisting them. Why is this a surprise to so many posters here?
 

Edited December 12, 2023 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement

There are Yemeni terrorists who bomb ships with goods coming to Israel. And bomb Israel from the southern side. They are doing that everyday.

Their moto is:

"Death to America, death to Israel, curse on the Jews and victory to Islam"

Same values as... Hamas.

They are responsible for the expulsion of the last Jewish families in Yemen.

And they are not occupied by Jews.

Any excuses to their toxic ideology, antisemitism, anti American agenda, and Muslim superiority agenda?

 

 

Two things

1) From a self-preservation standpoint knowing your neighbors, why are you catering to their most dangerous and worst tendencies?

2) Yes. And Israel has given them hundreds of thousands more recruits, an excuse to do what they are doing, and legitimacy for a more extreme position or government.

In their mind, they are not terrorists but fighting outside invaders. Why is it you can't see that one action creates the consequences of the next? Why do you think everything happens in a vacuum?

Any excuse? There is an ethnic cleansing going on nearby. If that happened in Europe you can be sure we'd be up in arms. Russia tried a horrific but different version of destroying a culture or way of life they didn't like, and united almost the whole continent against them.

[Raze]

5 hours ago, jaylimix said:

Imagine you are two different persons, imagine yourself to be because I want you to understand something.

1) You are standing outside, and you threw a Molotov cocktail from outside the house at a window.

2) You physically picks up a baby, put it in the oven, and then turn it on, while you hear the baby scream, you cheer.

Do you see what I am trying to tell you?

Trying to draw a moral equivalence here shows your moral compass is broken.

Another thing to note is that settlers are not the IDF, again you need to draw a distinction here.

 

Haaretz is not a mouthpiece of “the enemy”, it is the oldest Israeli newspaper. The first responder organization there also said the claim is false.

I’m open to being wrong, so what is your evidence the oven baby situation happened? 
 

I really don’t see how 1 or 2 is that different, both situations are knowingly burning children alive.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Raze

[zazen]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

Haaretz is not a mouthpiece of “the enemy”, it is the oldest Israeli newspaper.

what is your evidence the oven baby situation happened? 
There is no moral equivalence because the oven baby didn’t happen, this one did.

The baby in the oven comes from the Deir Yassin massacre before the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, and the pregnant woman story is something which actually happened in the massacre at Sabra and Shatila in Lebanon in 1982.

Zionists mine their own history for things they've done which they can then accuse the Palestinians of, otherwise known as confession through projection. They then flood the media with these stories so that their own history of committing what they accuse the 'evil' side of committing is drowned out. When you go to google searching for baby in the oven now you only get shown the accused Hamas stories of it rather than the old story of Israel doing such atrocities. 

Baseless allegations of 40 beheaded babies and the like, and connecting Hamas with Nazi's and ISIS indicates that they themselves don't believe Hamas to be as evil as they wish them to be which is why they always feel the need to lie and associate them with more evil groups such as ISIS and Nazi's who don't hold any moral ground for their actions as they weren't defensive resistant groups but expansionist ones.

[Ash55]

4 hours ago, Lila9 said:

There are Yemeni terrorists who bomb ships with goods coming to Israel. And bomb Israel from the southern side. They are doing that everyday.

Their moto is:

"Death to America, death to Israel, curse on the Jews and victory to Islam"

Same values as... Hamas.

They are responsible for the expulsion of the last Jewish families in Yemen.

And they are not occupied by Jews.

Any excuses to their toxic ideology, antisemitism, anti American agenda, and Muslim superiority agenda?

the US destabilized the middle east iran filled the vacuum by supporting radical groups like huthies in yamen
the middle east is plagued by these toxic ideology and politicians capitalize on that supporting both extremes
the west decisions wasn't the wisest too, actually the west is acting like 6 yo and the middle east like 4 yo

 

4 hours ago, Lila9 said:

850,000,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries. In 1948, their homes were occupied by Muslim Arabs in the middle east and North Africa. Not to mention all the territory and homes Jews lost during the WW2 across Europe.

Could they just go and commit terror attacks against innocent Arabs across the middle east? Across Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen? 

war is radicalizing both side, if we just made isreal and palatines one secular country fair for everyone, that gonna solve the problem, i understand the suffering of both sides and the west is using jews as a tool to project power into the middle east, and how Israel started with nakba is not a very peaceful start too
are you an israeli @Lila9  for defending israel like that ?
am not blaming you i  just wanna understand where you came from

the  arab left  dont support hamas am from the arab world just the far right wing some religious fanatics do support it but people are people and thye feel the suffering of other


 

 

4 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Not to mention all the territory and homes Jews lost during the WW2 across Europe.

war is the problem not jews or arab its a systemic problem, Syrian lost so much too and got displaced so is ukrainians, it not only the jews that are suffering we are all suffering from war really i personally lost my house and almost died in Syria

 

@Lila9 am not pro Hamas or pro palestinian am pro humans : D
we must understand the suffering the the POV of each side here so we can find solutions

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ash55

[Ash55]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Do you really believe Hamas could have taken over Israel?

well hamas is a joke but azballah has much bigger arsenal and superior count, leadership and training
they even suppressed the Syrian revolution in Syria
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXJGBQVasqY

[Vrubel]

57 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Thats actually a real strategy.

We know from the Israeli military governor of Gaza that Israel funded Hamas to annihilate any peace option.

This strategy is used everywhere. Assad used Jihadists in prisons to hijack the revolution so the west think he is the best of only 2 options.

I was reacting to a different issue, but about your point: There was this assumption that for how bad Hamas is, there could always be something worse like ISIS. Of course, this assumption came crumbling down on 7/10. This is the killer trap of the silent assumption that all people think more or less rationally like you. These people turned out to be death cult, sadistic psychopaths. You can never give such people the benefit of the doubt. The same applies to Hezbollah. 

Hamas could have coasted by because each previous war ended relatively quickly due to international pressure. Like the survivability rate of a Gaza militant was extremely high, he basically had not much to fear if another round of fighting broke out. Hamas was in a relatively comfortable position and sneakily positioned itself as a "reasonable" actor by for example negotiating workers' permits with Israel just before 7/10 to alleviate the unemployment issue, which was Gaza's greatest issue. 

[Twentyfirst]

On 12/10/2023 at 9:11 AM, Leo Gura said:

You can find interview with Hamas spokesperson who says they will keep repeating more terrorist attacks until they elimimate Israel. This is their official position:

It's not possible to live peacefully alongside such an ideology. Netanyahu is correct when he says so. That is not propaganda.

How can the world expect Hamas to live peacefully alongside their invaders? 

The propaganda is they never tell you who started this whole thing and who is reacting