New War In Israel / Gaza

[Jodistrict]

Support the right to boycott for peace.

 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

@hundreth ''The fact remains, Israel receives an incredibly disproportionate amount of contempt and hate given what many consider it's biggest crime: existing. There's nothing Israel can do to satisfy you except for committing suicide and ceasing to be.'' 

Past colonial foundations exist but don't discredit present existing states (Israel) that came from it. Thats not the issue. The issue is when an oppressive and discriminatory system and security apparatus still exists as a residue of that root colonialism that needs to be rid of in the 21st century.

Relics of past colonialism that are unjust can't exist in a post colonial world as most are opposed to it. Just as relics of religion and tradition that are unjust can't exist in a post religious and traditional world - although we shouldn't just throw the baby out with the bath water.

Most sensible people aren't calling for the end of Israel, but the end of how it currently exists. I even commented two pages back that I'm all for defending their existence and right to defend itself. 

 

   I partly agree that some sensible people, Israeli and Palestinian, are not calling for Israel to not exist but the current alt right nationalism/zionism in Israel, and similarly to Palestinians. However, due to this conflict most people, from either side, are getting mind slayed and are caught in this polarized binary of us versus them, right/wrong, good/evil, black and white thinking, other side must die and we survive. So we must have more accurate reporting and more transparency in the news and how the conflict is framed. Obviously the propaganda between Israel and Palestine's news reporting is obvious to outsiders, but not to it's own citizens because of the cultural zeitgeist and mass backlash of the HAMAs event.

   Agree, most relics of post colonialism and even imperialism can't exist as power structures in our current modernized world. True that religions and other traditional structures may not coexist with some aspects of the modern world, yet we can't throe the baby out with the bathwater. We still need stage blue/range as human developments for others.

   

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Again, when you have 10,000s terror targets to attack, you cannot think every single time how to hit only the terrorists, even if you try your best, it is unrealistic, and given the virus clever strategies to disguise itself to healthy cells and use them as his hosts as its only possible strategy to survive.

In this situation, more loose attacks will indeed happen. I am not trying to pretend the war is clean from any side because its not possible to fight clean with this kind of virus.

However to equate the two sides is uttetly rediculous. The difference in values, education, thinking, intentions, motivations, goals... night and day difference. In the root this is not because what Israel did in the past but Israel made this worse you are right.

Hezbollah in Lebanon for example holds the exact same ideology and intention, but it is not palestinian, it is a direct Iran's proxy formed in the help of IRGC and isn't occupied by anyone and antyhing.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

40 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Again, when you have 10,000s terror targets to attack, you cannot think every single time how to hit only the terrorists, even if you try your best, it is unrealistic. And given the virus clever strategies to disguise itself to healthy cells and use them as his hosts.

In this situation, more loose attacks will indeed happen. I am not trying to pretend the war is clean from any side because its not possible to fight clean with this kind of virus.

However to equate the two sides is uttetly rediculous. The difference in values, education, thinking, intentions, motivations, goals... night and day difference. In the root this is not because what Israel did in the past but Israel made this worse you are right.

Hezbollah in Lebanon for example holds the exact same ideology and intention, but it is not palestinian but Iran's proxy and isn't occupied by anyone and antyhing.

   Sure but Israel has the war technology to have guided missile strikes, and A.I information gathering, to know exactly who's who in a building floor, so Israel can actually mitigate killings of Palestinian citizens caught in the cross fire, while HAMAs doesn't poses that level of technological weaponry. So the onus should be on Israel as it can target precisely in comparison to HAMA?

   Sure that Hezbollah for example has the same ideology and intent similar to HAMAs, and it may not be Palestinian but Iran's proxy, that doesn't mean that Israel's invasion of Lebanon and cutting off north and central Lebanon from southern Lebanon , which leads to militia groups in south Lebanon forming Hezbollah, doesn't mean Israel isn't at fault for Hezbollah forming in the first place. In fact Hezbollah isn't occupied or anything allowed them, from Iran's support and others the means to nation build and develop social infrastructures like schools, hospitals, farms and other buildings as Hezbollah, all the while having funding for military equipment and military training, which makes Hezbollah more different than HAMA which is much closer to Israel with Palestinians occupied by Israel in Gaza and West Bank:

 

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

@hundreth

What you deem the label of occupation is a reality for 5 million Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza. In Israel proper they aren't legally occupied but are discriminated against. Occupation doesn't mean like when you go to the toilet it says occupied by someone sitting on it - Israeli's don't have to be sitting on Palestinians laps in Gaza eating Baklava to claim occupation or defecating on their land - they can be occupied externally by controls of their border, sea and airspace depriving, dehumanising and un-dignifying them.

But if you want to see the discrimination about Israel proper itself and exclude the occupied territories.  Heres a link to a list of laws within Israel that discriminate:

https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

One example is land purchase:

''A large percentage of land in Israel is under the control of the Jewish National Fund (JNF), which has a:

“specific mandate to develop land for and lease land only to Jews. Thus the 13 percent of land in Israel owned by the JNF is by definition off-limits to Palestinian Arab citizens, and when the ILA tenders leases for land owned by the JNF, it does so only to Jews—either Israeli citizens or Jews from the Diaspora. This arrangement makes the state directly complicit in overt discrimination against Arab citizens in land allocation and use..”.

The JNF is not the only entity blocking Palestinian citizens of Israel from purchasing, leasing or renting land and property, but also by so-called regional and local councils, which account for the vast majority of land. These councils have the authority to block anyone from settling in these areas that do not seem like a “good fit”. In a Statement submitted by Habitat International Coalition and Adalah to the United Nations, it was estimated that almost 80% of the entire country is off limits to lease for Palestinian citizens of Israel.''

The same channel you shared has a video asking the question if Israeli Arabs feel occupied (not Palestinians of West Bank or Gaza) - most said yes, though legally speaking what they describe is more discrimination than occupation.

 

As for the guy you shared - of course he/they wouldn't want to live elsewhere as thats their home and by the backing of the West it is a safe and more prosperous country. That doesn't mean the existence of injustices and oppression still don't exist. 

I don't deny the situation for Palestinians in the Gaza or West Bank. I question how much emphasis is placed on Israel's actions vs. the Palestinians themselves. I'm skeptical they've been taking any steps towards peace themselves, and are not held accountable. That's not to say that Israel shouldn't be held accountable for it's actions.

I also find it telling that your main example for discrimination is the JNF, a non profit organization which existed before Israel and not affiliated with the Israeli government at all. 

Quote

As for the guy you shared - of course he/they wouldn't want to live elsewhere as thats their home and by the backing of the West it is a safe and more prosperous country. That doesn't mean the existence of injustices and oppression still don't exist. 

Not because it's his home, that is a misrepresentation. Because he has direct experience living In those other nations. I don't see what backing of the West has anything to do with it, just seems like another way to take a dig at Israel.

At the end of the day, it's a Jewish state. One of it's kind. Is life perfect for Arabs in Israel? No. There's discrimination against sephardic Jews as well. You may not believe in the need for a Jewish state. Perhaps in a vacuum, it isn't necessary. Unfortunately we don't live in that world and the vast majority of Jews agree that a Jewish state is necessary. You don't get to decide, and that's why Jews will fight for Israel.

The rest of the world has no say in what Jews feel is necessary for their security. They lost that privilege centuries ago.

[_Archangel_]

241 pages and still poeple here think the Israeli government are the "good guys", that they "tried", etc.

Are palestinian elites the good ones then? fuck no. Both the Gaza strip and the West Bank are partially amministrated by some of the most corrupted and barbaric organizations on the planet, alongside their collegues in the neighbouring countries.

Though It must be remembered the current state of the Palestinian leaderships has beeen partially, if not directly moulded by Israeli politians as shown by the well documented funding activity of Nethanyahu's party in favour of Hamas, for example.

--------

Now that i put aside possible misunderstandings, let's  adress with FACTS what too many people here seem to negate/overlook/ignore.
Is Israel committing a Genocide? YES. why? i explain:

 if you look at the definition of Genocide, agreed even by israel Itself during its founding, it says:
"act committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". The act can be aplied through:
1 killing members of the group,
2 causing them serious bodily or mental harm,
3 imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group,
4 preventing births,
5 forcibly transferring children out of the group. 

You just need to enact 1 of these five condiction to call it a genicide, as i will demonstrate, Isreal is guilty in most of them.

1- this one is easy. i think it's enough to mention that in just one month Israel defended itself by making more killings then in the whole current Ukraine conflict. It's important to remember that of the deads are civilians and 40% are kids.

2/3-mutilations, harming of prisoners, sexual violence, bombings of schools, hospitals, blockings of medicines, water, food, limited movement etc.

4- even though there isn't an law direct that doesn't allow Palesinians to have children,  but the UN clarifies that "preventing birth" can be the results of laws that bans merriages. Israel recentrly approved a law that makes interracial merriages complicated, which means that the only form of reproduction for Palesintians without legal obstacle, is forming couples within them.

5- Israel's violation of the Geneva Convention is already enough proof. masses have been arrested in Gaza and deported in Israelis prisons and have been judge by their military courts. Many families have been separated.

--------

As you see, genocide doesn't mean that the population must decrease.
It must also be mentioned that around 50% of those who identifies as palestinians today are aren't leaving in Palestine right now.

Many Historians, Journalists, Intellectuls, legal experts, international associations, even Israeli ones have agreed that Israel is guilty of Genocide.
Even many politicians in the costitutional arc of the Israeli govenment (so not some border activist) have admitted it.

All of this was meant to demonstrate that this conflict is asymmetrical only as a matter of military and political force.
The practical action, by both sides, seems to be the same.
So it's good to have a civil conversation, but no conversation about this conflict can be fruitful without acknlowledging this first.














 

Edited December 11, 2023 by _Archangel_

[Lila9]

21 minutes ago, hundreth said:

The rest of the world has no say in what Jews feel is necessary for their security. They lost that privilege centuries ago.

Indeed. This is a strong statement.

[Nivsch]

@_Archangel_ Trying to understand the reality of Israel and the conflict through mathematics of words and terms, without zooming out to see the bigger context, is precisely what the best lies are made of.

See my answer to @zazen above which in I explained what I personally think.

What you did is like to collect puzzle pieces that seems to connect physically but when you zoom out there is no picture created because you connected it wrong.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

I also find it telling that your main example for discrimination is the JNF, a non profit organization which existed before Israel and not affiliated with the Israeli government at all. 

I provided a link indexed with up to 65 laws that discriminate. So unofficial organisations can't sway and influence government bodies such as AIPAC in USA for example? Half the members of the government agency Israeli Land Authority (ILA) that manages and allocates state lands belong to JNF.  

From Wiki: In 1953, the JNF was dissolved and re-organized as an Israeli company under the name Keren Kayemet LeYisrael (JNF-KKL). In 1960, administration of the land held by the JNF-KKL, apart from forested areas, was transferred to a newly formed government agency, the Israel Land Administration (ILA). The ILA was then responsible for managing some 93% of the land of Israel. All the land managed by the ILA was defined as Israel lands; it included both land owned by the government (about 80%) and land owned by the JNF-KKL (about 13%). The JNF-KKL received the right to nominate 10 of the 22 directors of the ILA, lending it significant leverage within that state body.

 

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

At the end of the day, it's a Jewish state. One of it's kind. Is life perfect for Arabs in Israel? No. There's discrimination against sephardic Jews as well. You may not believe in the need for a Jewish state. Perhaps in a vacuum, it isn't necessary. Unfortunately we don't live in that world and the vast majority of Jews agree that a Jewish state is necessary. You don't get to decide, and that's why Jews will fight for Israel.

The rest of the world has no say in what Jews feel is necessary for their security. They lost that privilege centuries ago.

Sure, its a Jewish state like you say - but then people can't claim with moral superiority its a democracy when it's really a ethnocracy. Like I said, I'm not against Israel's existence or its right to defend itself, its just in how it currently exists and goes about its defence.

4 hours ago, hundreth said:

The fact remains, Israel receives an incredibly disproportionate amount of contempt and hate given what many consider it's biggest crime: existing.

The fact remains that Israel can't have the remains of an oppressive discriminatory system and security apparatus and expect to be loved by the world. That makes the Jewish diaspora feel probably more unsafe and disillusions the majority of the Jewish youth away from Israel as the polls show in the US. 

If the Jews want so bad to live as a Jewish state then at least give the Palestinians a viable state as a solution so they can go live there in peace. Rabin who wanted peace was assassinated instead, and any offers haven't met the international criteria of being a sovereign state - thats why they are rejected by the Arab side. The land on which the Palestinians would have their state (West Bank) has been encroached by settler expansion almost nullifying or making the solution even harder.

Edited December 11, 2023 by zazen

[Lila9]

10 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

1 killing members of the group,
2 causing them serious bodily or mental harm,
3 imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group,
4 preventing births,
5 forcibly transferring children out of the group

By these definitions, Hamas is comiting genocide as well. Killing Israeli people, innocent civilians, causing them serious bodily and mental harm (October 7 massacre was the peak of it) and separating children from the group by kidnapping them.

If you are fair and objective you should address this as well.

If there is harm for both sides, it looks like a war, not genocide.

Yes Israel has more military power. Just because it has more power doesn't mean that it's more ill intentioned. Per Hamas charter all the Jews should be eliminated, and Israel should be an Islamic state, if they had the military power to do that, they would do that.

14 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

As you see, genocide doesn't mean that the population must decrease.

Factually their population only increases. Which means that there is no birth prevention policy and no genocide. How can be genocide and birth prevention policy when the population only increases? And not slowly. Not slowly at all, damn, they can easily solve the birth rate problem in the western world. 

Only because some intellectuals and theoraticans say that, doesn't mean it's true. There are intellectuals and theoraticans who condtridict them. 

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@_Archangel_ Trying to understand the reality of Israel and the conflict through mathematics of words and terms, without zooming out to see the bigger context, is precisely what the best lies are made of.

See my answer to @zazen above which in I explained what I personally think.

What you did is like to collect puzzle pieces that seems to connect physically but when you zoom out there is no picture created because you connected it wrong.

   Yes, you and @zazen having this heated discourse, @zazen and @hundreth having a heated exchanged. You and @Lila9  being biased and preferential towards Israel over Palestine, and others being biased with Palestinians over Israel...this WHOLE THREAD is a masterclass of biased positions, and deception. The amount of devilry in this whole thread, as @_Archangel_  put it:

32 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

241 pages and still poeple here think the Israeli government are the "good guys", that they "tried", etc.

Are palestinian elites the good ones then? fuck no. Both the Gaza strip and the West Bank are partially amministrated by some of the most corrupted and barbaric organizations on the planet, alongside their collegues in the neighbouring countries.

Though It must be remembered the current state of the Palestinian leaderships has beeen partially, if not directly moulded by Israeli politians as shown by the well documented funding activity of Nethanyahu's party in favour of Hamas, for example.

--------

Now that i put aside possible misunderstandings, let's  adress with FACTS what too many people here seem to negate/overlook/ignore.
Is Israel committing a Genocide? YES. why? i explain:

 if you look at the definition of Genocide, agreed even by israel Itself during its founding, it says:
"act committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". The act can be aplied through:
1 killing members of the group,
2 causing them serious bodily or mental harm,
3 imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group,
4 preventing births,
5 forcibly transferring children out of the group. 

You just need to enact 1 of these five condiction to call it a genicide, as i will demonstrate, Isreal is guilty in most of them.

1- this one is easy. i think it's enough to mention that in just one month Israel defended itself by making more killings then in the whole current Ukraine conflict. It's important to remember that of the deads are civilians and 40% are kids.

2/3-mutilations, harming of prisoners, sexual violence, bombings of schools, hospitals, blockings of medicines, water, food, limited movement etc.

4- even though there isn't an law direct that doesn't allow Palesinians to have children,  but the UN clarifies that "preventing birth" can be the results of laws that bans merriages. Israel recentrly approved a law that makes interracial merriages complicated, which means that the only form of reproduction for Palesintians without legal obstacle, is forming couples within them.

5- Israel's violation of the Geneva Convention is already enough proof. masses have been arrested in Gaza and deported in Israelis prisons and have been judge by their military courts. Many families have been separated.

--------

As you see, genocide doesn't mean that the population must decrease.
It must also be mentioned that around 50% of those who identifies as palestinians today are aren't leaving in Palestine right now.

Many Historians, Journalists, Intellectuls, legal experts, international associations, even Israeli ones have agreed that Israel is guilty of Genocide.
Even many politicians in the costitutional arc of the Israeli govenment (so not some border activist) have admitted it.

All of this was meant to demonstrate that this conflict is asymmetrical only as a matter of military and political force.
The practical action, by both sides, seems to be the same.
So it's good to have a civil conversation, but no conversation about this conflict can be fruitful without acknlowledging this first.














 

    Have made discourse nearly impossible without losing our minds in the process.

[Nivsch]

7 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The only way to change that is by treating Palestinians better. No other solution will work.

Dont you think if Israel treated them humanely, ended the prison, Hamas would find it harder to recruit soldiers and brainwash kids? 

A little harder but would not solve the problem. I'm for that anyway.

Massacres of Arab against Jews happend long before any occupation during 1920s and 1930s.

In Quran its written that Islam is the only legitimate religion, and other religions can live under Islam as inferiors and only according to Sharia laws. 

To think Israel is the root of the problem is foolishness. See the terror in europe, the terror groups of arabs do to one another too in the same brutality.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Lila9

10 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

By these definitions, Hamas is comiting genocide as well. Killing Israeli people, innocent civilians, causing them serious bodily and mental harm (October 7 massacre was the peak of it) and separating children from the group by kidnapping them.

If you are fair and objective you should address this as well.

If there is harm for both sides, it looks like a war, not genocide.

Yes Israel has more military power. Just because it has more power doesn't mean that it's more ill intentioned. Per Hamas charter all the Jews should be eliminated, and Israel should be an Islamic state, if they had the military power to do that, they would do that.

Factually their population only increases. Which means that there is no birth prevention policy and no genocide. How can be genocide and birth prevention policy when the population only increases? And not slowly. Not slowly at all, damn, they can easily solve the birth rate problem in the western world. 

Only because some intellectuals and theoraticans say that, doesn't mean it's true. There are intellectuals and theoraticans who condtridict them. 

   By definition Israel has more superior military capabilities and technology over HAMAs, which is why this war is asymmetrical in the first place. Yes, both sides are guilty of genocide, HAMAS AND ISRAEL. Yet when looking at capability, Israel HAS THE GREATER POTENTIAL FOR DESTRUCTION, not HAMAS in this specific conflict. Stop both siding Israel and HAMAS you two.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

A little harder but would not solve the problem. I'm for that anyway.

Massacres of Arab against Jews happend long before any occupation during 1920s and 1930s.

In Quran its written that Islam is the only legitimate religion, and other religions can leave under Islam as inferiors and only according to Sharia laws. 

To think Israel is the root of the problem is foolishness. See the terror in europe, the terror groups of arabs do to one another too in the same brutality.

   Again, no one here is saying Israel is 100% the root problem, but they're adding to part of this problem of perpetual terror of the Palestinians by land grabbing their territory, occupying parts of they're land over time. 

   And curb your islamophobia, it's against the forum guidelines https://www.actualized.org/forum/guidelines/ to hate on religion or attack religious beliefs.

   

[Nivsch]

@Danioover9000 Your last paragraph is your deffense mechanism against a powerful claim that doesn't blame only Israel. If you are fair you have to add Jewsphobia to the rules at the same exact way.

How do you want me to talk about origin of Ideologies while be politicly correct?

Then Suggest to me another way to say that and I will change the wording, but I cannot not saying an important part of the truth just because of pc.

This doesnt mean any muslim thinks that because that is not what I said, but the origin of these extreme ideologies came from that thinking.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

This is a very interesting video that somewhat has implications for this Israel Palestinians conflict. Where it's important is the development of values, cognitive and moral development, personality typing/traits especially sociopathy/psychopathy innate and environmental:

 

Thanks for sharing, thats a treat. Its like avengers assembling to talk about the world - probably better than the Elon, Tate and Alex Jones avengers assembly haha.

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Danioover9000 Your last paragraph is your deffense mechanism against a powerful claim that doesn't blame only Israel. If you are fair you have to add Jewsphobia to the rules at the same exact way.

How do you want me to talk about origin of Ideologies while be politicly correct?

Then Suggest to me another way to say that, but I cannot not saying an important part of the truth just because of pc.

This doesnt mean any muslim thinks that because that is not what I said, but the origin of these extreme ideologies came from that thinking.

   Here's my suggestion: Ask @Leo Gura, @Thought Art, @Carl-Richard or some other mods why you misbehave, because I'm done with you all, good luck burning yourselves out with these heated discourses. Sorry @zazen but I'm checking out, tired of it! Hope you take a break too from this circus show.😤

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

The rest of the world has no say in what Jews feel is necessary for their security. They lost that privilege centuries ago.

The rest of the world has plenty of say in what Israel does. War crimes and genocide. You can’t just do what you want. Typical Israeli mindset. 😀

[zazen]

@Lila9 @Nivsch @hundreth  @Danioover9000 and others seem to be exhausted from the circles and biased talking points. I must admit it has been a class in how we humans are more rationalising creatures than we are rational.

If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. History has shown us this by the dismantling of the colonial powers and any remaining colonial powers that remain do so by the utter subjugation, expulsion or massacre of the natives. 

Their called grassroots movements for a reason - you can't get rid of them unless you poison the soil ie genocide, expulsion or brutal subjugation. Ironically a used phrase to describe Israeli operations is 'mowing the grass'  which is  periodic to keep resistance checked. But this resistance will never stop unless the soil is destroyed because its the soil (people) that keeps the grass (resistance) growing.

Everything that colonial power will have will be inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. 

And when that oppression is resisted as it always has been, that violence will be used to feed the fear of safety needed to maintain that cycle, a cycle set in motion by the colonizers first and which frames the colonized as the undeveloped violent ones that need be tamed in a modern world.

 

As for referring to Hamas as a virus - it seems the current vaccine of disproportionate warfare being used against this 'virus' will not be effective in the age of social media for the world to see and when you have a more multipolar world with rising powers. The biggest supporter of Israel which they can't do without is the US, and the US can't be stained with the sticker of ethnic cleansing and more blood than it already has and that the world has become sick of. They won't continue to bankroll this - and if you lose US support domestically, politically and economically you become very lonely in a neighbourhood you can't afford to be lonely in - this is where Israel's arrogance and entitlement is its downfall.

Edited December 11, 2023 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

The rest of the world has no say in what Jews feel is necessary for their security. They lost that privilege centuries ago.

Oh good! Then Israel can carry out its war without the rest of the world's weapons, money, and moral support.

The absurdity of this situation is that Israel wants to butcher the Gazans and then act innocent in the eyes of the world.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Leo Gura