New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Palestine has also right to defend itself.

Raping, butching, kidnap, killing babies, burn babies, killing children in their beds... sounds to you as a self deffense?

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

However if you want to be objective such massacres are very common in wars.

Do you have a better way to deal with 40,000 terrorist parasite viruses hiding behind healthy cells  as their only possible strategy to survive and reproduce?

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

And if you want to talk hostages, Israel has thousands of childreen and women in prisons which has arbritary arrested and imprisoned under inhumane conditions for things as silly as throwing stones at soldiers. Again, when 200 Israelis get taken hostage you loose your shit when Israel has taken 20x more through the years in West Bank.

Do you think the fear of being killed in captive in any moment is really comparable to being prisoned in surely much better conditions with no life threat at all? I don't like Israel arrests children from time to time but It is really a serious comparison between the cases?

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

especially considering you are the aggressors in the first place

How did Italy get formed? In a clean way?

How did Greece get formed if not by some sort of war when one side was probably more dominant than the other?

How did France? Cyprus? Egypt? USA? England?

Do you know a country that didn't get formed through occupation? 

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

In the eyes of most of the world Israel started this by colonizing the native population living there. If they knew their place and stayed within the UN borders this would be a different situation. How come Palestinians are pushed all the way to Gaza? You realize most of its population are refugees created by Israel. And Israel is the victim? The current border of Israel is way bigger than the UN agreed border of 1947. ALL of that land difference is pure theft.

The Jews agreed to UN plan but the Arabs didn't and started the war and almost won, until the Jews decided to change their strategy from mainly deffense to attack. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

The Jews agreed to UN plan but the Arabs didn't and started the war and almost won, until the Jews decided to change their strategy from mainly deffense to attack.

The 1947 UNGA resolution wasn't the first partition scheme to be presented. In 1919 the World Zionist Organization put forward a ‘partition’ plan, which included all of historical Palestine, parts of Lebanon, Syria and Transjordan. At the time, the Jewish population of this proposed state didn't even reach 2-3% of the total population.

Obviously this proposal was too unrealistic but it shows the entitlement of the Zionist movement in wanting to establish an ethnic state in an area where they were so utterly outnumbered. 

Even after waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, and a much smaller area allocated to the Jewish state in the 1947 partition plan, the proposed Jewish state wouldn't have a Jewish majority without more immigration and settlements. Even on the eve of the Nakba, the Jewish population in mandatory Palestine was less than a third.

If we consider that most of this population arrived during the 4th and 5th Aliyot (Between 1924-1939), then majority of those demanding partition of the land had barely been living there for 20 years at most.  The UN partition plan allotted approximately 56% of the land of mandatory Palestine to the Jewish state.

Why, then, were Palestinians expected to agree to give away most of their land to a minority of recently arrived settlers? Why is the rejection of such a ridiculously unjust proposal framed as irrational or hateful?

Any public acceptance of the partition plan by the Zionists was tactical in order for the newly created Jewish state to gather its strength before expanding. This can be referenced by many meetings taking place at the time and comments by the Zionist leadership:

Partition: “after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine “
— Ben Gurion, p.22 “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan.

Edited December 11, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Raping, butching, kidnap, killing babies, burn babies, killing children in their beds... sounds to you as a self deffense?

I think 400 or so killed were soldiers. That is why I called it a war crime, because civilians also got killed in mass. Keep in mind in Israel military service is mandatory for both genders so everyone over 18 has served in the IDF. It does not justify killing ex soldiers off duty but it is understandable why they would kill them with such hatred. How would you feel if you were a Jew and got your hands on ex Nazi soldiers? Killing children's is totally unjustifiable and horrible though. If I could I would see the organizers of those killings and the actual soldiers that commited them either dead or life in some shit prison. 

Also I think they overblow the amount of people dying in such horrible ways (although not the way how they died). What you said may be true but scale matters a lot.

And if you want to talk about suffering, you know dozens of childreen are having their limbs amputated without anasthetisa because of Israel ruthless bombing and lack of supplies going to hospitals? You think having your arm cut out is any more humane than the stuff you wrote above?

You know that when one of the hospitals in Gaza had to evacuate the IDF did not allow the premature babies in incubators to leave and when the doctors returned during the ceasefire they found them rotting, long dead from starvation. How are these scenes any better than what happened during October the 7th?

2 babies are confirmed to be killed in total and I think 40 childreen in total so far. Although horrible, compare it with 7000 Palestinians childreen dead. You are claiming as if babies were killed in the hundreds which is not true.

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Do you have a better way to deal with 40,000 terrorist parasite viruses hiding behind healthy cells  as their only possible strategy to survive and reproduce?

Yes, I sent a clip of a building attacked where only 1 floor was destroyed. Apply that as the norm. I love how you keep ignoring the IDF people legit saying "WE ARE AIMING FOR DESTRUCTION, NOT ACCURACY". How can you say "there is no better solution"? Come on...

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Do you know a country that didn't get formed through occupation? 

Occupation and colonizing are different things. Colonizing is when you kick out the native population and settle your own people. You did not have millions of Italians get kicked out. The same people lived in the same territory with different governments. 

Colonizing used to be morally acceptable in the past, just like what Hamas did was. You think what Hamas did is special? It used to be textbook war practice applied by every country for most of human history. However it is not anymore in 2023 which is why people rightfully denounce it. Neither is what Israel did and is doing now with taking more and more Palestinian territory. If you claim that Israel should not be denounced since every country did something similar to what Israel is doing/did , then by that logic also Hamas should not be denounced because also every country did similar stuff to what Hamas did.

Apartheid regime which Israel has is also not acceptable anymore in a first world country although it was in the past (example USA before civil rights movement).

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

The Jews agreed to UN plan but the Arabs didn't and started the war and almost won, until the Jews decided to change their strategy from mainly deffense to attack. 

That I do agree was a mistake by the Arabs although I do not know whether the UN deal was fair or not. Regardless, why did Israel commit the Nakba after it won the war? How is killing 20.000 civilians, destroying hundreds of villages and kicking out 750.000 people and taking tons of territory justified? Sure you won the war which maybe should not have happened. Why do all that stuff after? Why not just force them to surrender? 

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Do you think the fear of being killed in captive in any moment is really comparable to being prisoned in surely much better conditions with no life threat at all? I don't like Israel arrests children from time to time but It is really a serious comparison between the cases?

Again scale matters. It is not "from time to time", there are endless number of childreen and women in Israel jails often jailed for ridicioulus  reasons and receive  high sentences. I heard kids sentenced for decades. I read reports from international organizations where the childreen were kept in cages during the freezing cold. They were trialed in After death they are kept in refrigerators until their sentence is completed. Also sometimes their organs and skin get harvested without consent from them or their families.  The judges sometimes did not even look at them while giving the sentence. How can a "first world democracy" treat people like this? It is beyond reason. You think this shit would fly in countries like France, Sweden, Spain?

Israel is the ONLY country in the world that trials children's in military courts. ONLY. Think about that...

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Sorry but there is no symmetry and no comparison at all between one side does torture and killing intentionally than other side who was never meant to initiate any war like this unless being provoked severely, and has, as I said before, to deal with a parasital virus who use healthy cells as his hosts to survive and nothing will change that fact.

The details as tragic as they are cannot be seen out of the bigger context.

If the world will start to talk also about the abuse, tyranni and brainwhashing Gazans children are already go through under hamas's cult leaving them no decent life or future anyway even before the war, then a deep discussion can be done.

And any comparison between nazis and a war happened in 1948 is a jock and jock is an understatement.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Nivsch

[lina]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Any public acceptance of the partition plan by the Zionists was tactical in order for the newly created Jewish state to gather its strength before expanding. This can be referenced by many meetings taking place at the time and comments by the Zionist leadership:

Partition: “after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine “
— Ben Gurion, p.22 “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan.

Wow. It's the first time for me to read this passage and know Ben Gurion said that himself ..! 

 

Why were Arabs blamed then for rejecting Israel's creation from the start when the Zionist non-stop expansionist ambitions had been clear from day 1 ?  

Edited December 11, 2023 by lina

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

other side who was never mention to initiate any war like this unless being provoked severely

They basically provoked it with their inhumane racist policies. I do not support what Hamas did but it is understandable.

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

one side does torture and killing intentionally 

Intentionally bombing civilians when you can choose not to is basically the same. IDF confirmed that they do not care about civilian casualties with the statement that you keep ignoring. I will send you the link if you do not believe me

. Israeli Army Official Admits Gaza Bombing Campaign Is Focused on 'Damage and Not on Accuracy' (commondreams.org)

Israel’s use of disproportionate force is a long-established tactic – with a clear aim | Paul Rogers | The Guardian

Now tell me, how is this better than what Hamas did? I really want to understand. Both sides are intentionally killing civilians. 

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

parasital virus who use healthy cells as his hosts to survive and nothing will change that fact

The only way to change that is by treating Palestinians better. No other solution will work.

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

If the world will start to talk also about the abuse, tyranni and brainwhashing Gazans children are already go through under hamas's cult leaving them no decent life and future anyway even before the war, then a deep discussion can be done

Dont you think if Israel treated them humanely, ended the prison, Hamas would find it harder to recruit soldiers and brainwash kids? It is very easy to brainwash kids when they have family members killed by IDF and living in an open air prison.  The only true way to stop Hamas from existing is to make the people there feel like Israel is not treating them unfairly. As long as that is the overall feeling then Hamas will appear again rebranded. 

Palestine getting their own state and the blockade in Gaza ending, illegal settlement stopped in West Bank would all be a good first step towards that.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

   Interesting take on Elon Musk and this whole situation:

https://fb.watch/oSMWOfLqAe/

[zazen]

Israel doesn't allow their own population in their national registry to identify as Israeli - only Arab, Jew, Druse etc because doing so could have far-reaching consequences for the country’s Jewish character the Israeli Supreme Court said.

Israel considers itself both Jewish and democratic yet has struggled to balance both. The country has not officially recognized an Israeli nationality.

In a Supreme Court case, 21 petitioners argued that Israel is not democratic because it is Jewish. They say that the country’s Arab minority faces discrimination because certain policies favor Jews and that a shared Israeli nationality could bring an end to such prejudice and unite all of Israel’s citizens.

“The Jewish identity is anti-democratic,” said Uzzi Ornan, the main petitioner who runs “I am Israeli,” a small organization devoted to having the Israeli nationality officially recognized.

Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-rejects-israeli-nationality-status/amp/

It says quite a lot about Israel that a unifying egalitarian identity not based around ethnicity would “pose a danger to Israel’s founding principle: to be a Jewish state for the Jewish people“, as the court ruled.  The fact that such discrimination is seen as a cornerstone of Israeli society only reinforces its colonial ethnocratic nature, and undermines any claims to equality among citizens.

Edited December 11, 2023 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Interesting take on Elon Musk and this whole situation:

https://fb.watch/oSMWOfLqAe/

 

[hundreth]

49 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel doesn't allow their own population in their national registry to identify as Israeli - only Arab, Jew, Druse etc because doing so could have far-reaching consequences for the country’s Jewish character the Israeli Supreme Court said.

Israel considers itself both Jewish and democratic yet has struggled to balance both. The country has not officially recognized an Israeli nationality.

In a Supreme Court case, 21 petitioners argued that Israel is not democratic because it is Jewish. They say that the country’s Arab minority faces discrimination because certain policies favor Jews and that a shared Israeli nationality could bring an end to such prejudice and unite all of Israel’s citizens.

“The Jewish identity is anti-democratic,” said Uzzi Ornan, the main petitioner who runs “I am Israeli,” a small organization devoted to having the Israeli nationality officially recognized.

Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/supreme-court-rejects-israeli-nationality-status/amp/

It says quite a lot about Israel that a unifying egalitarian identity not based around ethnicity would “pose a danger to Israel’s founding principle: to be a Jewish state for the Jewish people“, as the court ruled.  The fact that such discrimination is seen as a cornerstone of Israeli society only reinforces its colonial ethnocratic nature, and undermines any claims to equality among citizens.

Now do the 23 officially Islamic nations...

Quote

Of the 46 countries in the world with majority Muslim populations, 23 declare Islam to be the state religion in their constitutions. The rest either proclaim the state to be secular or make no pronouncement concerning an official religion. The 23 countries where Islam is declared the state religion are: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Brunei, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by hundreth

[zazen]

@hundreth  Whataboutism but since we're gonna play that game - I agree they should move to secular states and have human rights issues. A difference between them and Israel however is that they aren't occupiers, have a 'security' structure akin to apartheid as confirmed by Amnesty and Israeli human rights group B'tselem or systemic discrimination (some of them sure ie Emiraties in UAE).

Neither do they attempt to elevate themselves and claim themselves 'to be the only democracy in the Middle East'. In the minds of those who often say this they think it confers an automatic moral superiority to Israel which further distinguishes it from its “backwards” neighbours. The assumption is that just because they are a democracy that is for the people and by the people that this translates to listening to the needs and wants of its citizens, who generally tend to reject war, misery and repression - but what is advertised isn't what is often practiced by the state as we can see from many war mongering democracies in modern times.

Jim Crow United States was classified as a democracy at the time. If a state practicing untold injustice and repression against its own citizens let alone people abroad could maintain the moniker of democracy, then how can anyone claim that being a democracy automatically makes a state good or just? A system is no more moral or corrupt except by the agents within that system making it so.

As you reference the official United States government I will reference them also to confirm that they also refer to Israel/Palestine as occupied territories:

 https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/

And a article about rising tensions along religious lines :

https://www.uscirf.gov/release-statements/uscirf-expresses-concern-integrity-religious-sites-jerusalem-area

“Recent attacks at sites of religious significance in and around Jerusalem restrict religious freedom for people of many different faiths. We hope that as Ramadan, Passover, and Easter approach, all houses of worship will be respected,” said USCIRF Commissioner Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum. 

Words such as occupation, apartheid, or systemic discrimination incite a allergic reaction to the ideologically captured Israel apologists because any discussion going forward from accepting these as realities favour the ones being occupied or discriminated against to be more legally right and morally legitimate in their defence, even armed defence. That is why they are so blatantly omitted in any discussion and often denied.

Edited December 11, 2023 by zazen

[Lila9]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Sorry to hear how did it affected you?

Just an hour ago I heard that a guy I know from age 8 (was one grade above me) was killed in Gaza operation. Shocking.

I was in disbelief and so my entire school and people who knew him because he was so young and so alive. We were sad and speechless at his funeral. Nobody knew how to react or what to say, we were kids who just graduated from school and some of us (me included) just joined to the army.

His mother's reaction was heartbreaking, I will never forget her crying, she was a single mother and he was her only son. 

I'm sorry to hear about your friend who was killed during the operation, these daily news about soliders or kidnapped citizens who were killed in Gaza make me feel bad.

This is very risky to serve in Gaza, I full of gratitude and respect towards all of them and pray that there wouldn't be more deaths.

[hundreth]

12 minutes ago, zazen said:

@hundreth  Whataboutism but since we're gonna play that game - I agree they should move to secular states and have human rights issues. A difference between them and Israel however is that they aren't occupiers, have a 'security' structure akin to apartheid as confirmed by Amnesty and Israeli human rights group B'tselem or systemic discrimination (some of them sure ie Emiraties in UAE).

Neither do they attempt to elevate themselves and claim themselves 'to be the only democracy in the Middle East'. In the minds of those who often say this they think it confers an automatic moral superiority to Israel which further distinguishes it from its “backwards” neighbours. The assumption is that just because they are a democracy that is for the people and by the people that this translates to listening to the needs and wants of its citizens, who generally tend to reject war, misery and repression - but what is advertised isn't what is often practiced by the state as we can see from many war mongering democracies in modern times.

Jim Crow United States was classified as a democracy at the time. If a state practicing untold injustice and repression against its own citizens let alone people abroad could maintain the moniker of democracy, then how can anyone claim that being a democracy automatically makes a state good or just? A system is no more moral except by the agents within that system making it so.

As you reference the United States official government I will reference them also to confirm that they also refer to Israel/Palestine as occupied territories:

 https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/

And a article about rising tensions along religious lines :

https://www.uscirf.gov/release-statements/uscirf-expresses-concern-integrity-religious-sites-jerusalem-area

“Recent attacks at sites of religious significance in and around Jerusalem restrict religious freedom for people of many different faiths. We hope that as Ramadan, Passover, and Easter approach, all houses of worship will be respected,” said USCIRF Commissioner Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum. 

Words such as occupation, apartheid, or systemic discrimination incite a allergic reaction to the ideologically captured Israel apologists because any discussion going forward from accepting these as realities favour the ones being occupied or discriminated against to be more legally right and morally legitimate in their defence, even armed defence. That is why they are so blatantly omitted in any discussion and often denied.

Oh, so first it was related to the notion of a "Jewish state", now you've moved the goalposts to "Occupiers" and "apartheid". So you're allowed to have a religious state, as long as certain organizations don't label you as occupiers, I see.

The fact remains, Israel receives an incredibly disproportionate amount of contempt and hate given what many consider it's biggest crime: existing. There's nothing Israel can do to satisfy you except for committing suicide and ceasing to be. Because to you, it's very foundation is one of colonialism. Never mind that every other nation's is. 

This is an interesting video with different perspectives from people living in Israel, including Arab citizens.

At 6:04 an arab citizen is interviewed. Despite testifying that Israel is using disproportionate force, and even possibly committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza, he concedes that life for him as an Arab citizen is much better in Israel than ANY other arab nation on the planet. 

"I am not changing the country I am living in." 

"Meaning it's better here?"

"Than any Arab country? There is no comparison. There is nothing to compare. There is nothing comparable. I'm telling you. There is no comparison between an Arab Israeli and Arabs in other countries. I am telling you it is from experience. I've been to Egypt. I've been to Jordan."

and then he continues...

The forest for the trees is that despite all the criticisms, Israel is far and away the nation which treats it's Arab citizens better than the surrounding nations.

And before you label this more whataboutism, this same argument is used by anti Israel voices to somehow claim the Arab locals pre 1948 were so friendly and accommodating to Jews as compared to literal Nazis. But now we're talking about as compared to Islamic nations!

[Karmadhi]

13 minutes ago, hundreth said:

At 6:04 an arab citizen is interviewed. Despite testifying that Israel is using disproportionate force, and even possibly committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza, he concedes that life for him as an Arab citizen is much better in Israel than ANY other arab nation on the planet. 

"I am not changing the country I am living in." 

"Meaning it's better here?"

"Than any Arab country? There is no comparison. There is nothing to compare. There is nothing comparable. I'm telling you. There is no comparison between an Arab Israeli and Arabs in other countries. I am telling you it is from experience. I've been to Egypt. I've been to Jordan."

and then he continues...

The forest for the trees is that despite all the criticisms, Israel is far and away the nation which treats it's Arab citizens better than the surrounding nations.

The issue is not regarding Arabs living in Tel Aviv. The issue is Palestinians living in the West Bank under a brutal occupation.

And there are millions of them.

[hundreth]

Just now, Karmadhi said:

The issue is not regarding Arabs living in Tel Aviv. The issue is Palestinians living in the West Bank under a brutal occupation.

And there are millions of them.

That's not what zazen was referring to specifically. This is what I'm addressing.

[zazen]

@hundreth

What you deem the label of occupation is a reality for 5 million Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza. In Israel proper they aren't legally occupied but are discriminated against. Occupation doesn't mean like when you go to the toilet it says occupied by someone sitting on it - Israeli's don't have to be sitting on Palestinians laps in Gaza eating Baklava to claim occupation or defecating on their land - they can be occupied externally by controls of their border, sea and airspace depriving, dehumanising and un-dignifying them.

But if you want to see the discrimination about Israel proper itself and exclude the occupied territories.  Heres a link to a list of laws within Israel that discriminate:

https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

One example is land purchase:

''A large percentage of land in Israel is under the control of the Jewish National Fund (JNF), which has a:

“specific mandate to develop land for and lease land only to Jews. Thus the 13 percent of land in Israel owned by the JNF is by definition off-limits to Palestinian Arab citizens, and when the ILA tenders leases for land owned by the JNF, it does so only to Jews—either Israeli citizens or Jews from the Diaspora. This arrangement makes the state directly complicit in overt discrimination against Arab citizens in land allocation and use..”.

The JNF is not the only entity blocking Palestinian citizens of Israel from purchasing, leasing or renting land and property, but also by so-called regional and local councils, which account for the vast majority of land. These councils have the authority to block anyone from settling in these areas that do not seem like a “good fit”. In a Statement submitted by Habitat International Coalition and Adalah to the United Nations, it was estimated that almost 80% of the entire country is off limits to lease for Palestinian citizens of Israel.''

The same channel you shared has a video asking the question if Israeli Arabs feel occupied (not Palestinians of West Bank or Gaza) - most said yes, though legally speaking what they describe is more discrimination than occupation.

 

As for the guy you shared - of course he/they wouldn't want to live elsewhere as thats their home and by the backing of the West it is a safe and more prosperous country. That doesn't mean the existence of injustices and oppression still don't exist. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

   This is a very interesting video that somewhat has implications for this Israel Palestinians conflict. Where it's important is the development of values, cognitive and moral development, personality typing/traits especially sociopathy/psychopathy innate and environmental:

   There's also some implications for 9 stages of ego development, shadow work, other lines of development in life to societal development, ideological beliefs indoctrinated from birth, in family, in culture and the mainstream/alternative information ecology, from news, to social media, to videos, radios, propaganda, and other disinformation/misinformation tactics that manufactures consent in times of war and times of peace.

   What Israeli and Israel needs to stop avoiding is they are capping and denying the social infrastructures that can allow Palestinians their citizenry and nation building, militarily speaking even before HAMAs invaded their border villages. What Palestinians also need to realize is that HAMAs is using those donated funds to build tunnels and other war infrastructures for asymmetrical warfare. Both sides need to realize they are in a culture warfare, that Palestinians are lead by HAMAs which has values from stage red to stage purple and stage blue, and that Israel is mostly at stage blue/orange values with some red militarily.

   This whole conflict in short is creating conditions environmentally to produce ore psychopaths and sociopaths.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Danioover9000

[zazen]

@hundreth ''The fact remains, Israel receives an incredibly disproportionate amount of contempt and hate given what many consider it's biggest crime: existing. There's nothing Israel can do to satisfy you except for committing suicide and ceasing to be.'' 

Past colonial foundations exist but don't discredit present existing states (Israel) that came from it. Thats not the issue. The issue is when an oppressive and discriminatory system and security apparatus still exists as a residue of that root colonialism that needs to be rid of in the 21st century.

Relics of past colonialism that are unjust can't exist in a post colonial world as most are opposed to it. Just as relics of religion and tradition that are unjust can't exist in a post religious and traditional world - although we shouldn't just throw the baby out with the bath water.

Most sensible people aren't calling for the end of Israel, but the end of how it currently exists. I even commented two pages back that I'm all for defending their existence and right to defend itself. 

On 12/10/2023 at 2:09 PM, zazen said:

Who caused that cause (Palestinians) to exist in the first place that could be exploited on both ends - a cause that most with a moral conscience support though it doesn't mean we support those who hijack that cause for personal gain such as Hamas.

Legally and morally I think the Palestinians are more in the right - they are the more aggrieved party in this situation. So I will side with their cause, but that doesn't mean I will always side in how they go about achieving their cause. Just as I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself but not the way in which they exist currently at the expense of the natives of that land or how they go about defending themselves killing innocents.

The Palestinians emancipation is also the Israeli's emancipation - Israel will free itself from the stained negative reputation it has worldwide that it needs to waste resources on propaganda for in order to rid itself of.

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by zazen