New War In Israel / Gaza

[Bobby_2021]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

 

 

 

Scary. These atrocities are not forgivable no matter what the context is. A little less blood would be a lot more nice. 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Exactly. And they are complaining we want to put an end to hamas while sitting in their (yet) safe home at the foot of the mountain from which they just moralize and throw instructions to Israel and to the 20 yo half-kids who are risking their lives right now. How low of a behaviour and how low self awareness.

The one way Westerners are made unsafe in their homes is by unconditional support to Israel which invokes more extremism. The one way we can all be safe including Israel is by coming to a decent peace proposal. In case you missed it this is why previous ones are usually rejected:  (Also my post at the top of this page on dealing with stage red)

4 hours ago, zazen said:

I found your response to the video. Lets look at why they refused the proposals by looking at the most generous offer in 2000 being the Camp David one from Ehud Barack. 

1. Barak offered the Palestinians 96% of Israel’s definition of the West Bank, meaning they did not include any of the areas already under Israeli control, such as settlements, the Dead Sea, and large parts of the Jordan Valley. This meant that Barak effectively annexed 10% of the West Bank to Israel, with an additional 8-12% remaining under “temporary” Israeli control for a period of time.

In return for this annexation, Palestinians would be offered 1% of desert land near the Gaza Strip. Thus, Palestinians would need to give up 10% of the most fertile land in the West Bank, in exchange for 1% of desert land. Not to mention that if the past record is any indicator, the additional 8-12% under “temporary” Israeli control would remain so forever.

2. Israel demanded permanent control of Palestinian airspace, three permanent military installations manned by Israeli troops in the West Bank, Israeli presence at Palestinian border crossings, and special “security arrangements” along the borders with Jordan which effectively annexed additional land.

3. Israel would be allowed to invade at any point in cases of “emergency”. As you can imagine, what constituted an emergency was left incredibly vague and up to interpretation. The Palestinian state would be demilitarized, and the Palestinian government would not be able to enter into alliances without Israeli permission. 

4. Regarding Jerusalem,  Israel refused any form of Palestinian sovereignty over the majority of the city, including many Palestinian neighbourhoods.

5. Regarding right of return, it offered a very limited return for a very limited number of refugees over a very long period of time.

None of these are ingredients for the creation of an actual sovereign state which meet the basic definitions of a sovereign state and the minimum international standards of one . The nerve, arrogance and entitlement to displace inhabitants from their land then negotiate with them about their land and offer such proposals is a insult to their dignity and intelligence.

Ultimately, this “generous offer” amounted to turning the West Bank into non-unified districts, crisscrossed by a network of settlements, roads and Israeli areas. Even the supposed “capital” of the Palestinian state would mostly be under Israeli control, with stipulations and conditions that stripped any real sovereignty from any area of the supposed Palestinian “state”.

Not even the sky above Palestinian heads would be under their control, nor the water under their feet, as Israel still demanded access to water resources under the West Bank. Palestinian aspirations cannot be allowed to exceed the ceiling of Israeli's deluded entitlements. Israel is not really conceding anything through these offers; ending its occupation and stopping its settlement activities is merely following international law. It is not a sacrifice - it should be the default position.

This is how all of the “generous” Israeli peace offers play out. The majority of people who hear about this on the news have no clue what the parameters of the offer are. All they hear is that the Palestinians have rejected yet another “peace” initiative by Israel which gets spun as them being stupid bloodthirsty savages. This is why the discourse always focuses on the number of offers, because it distracts from their content and unviability.

Shout out to @Raze for sharing relevant media from X and @Danioover9000 @lina and @kenway for good, balanced and articulate posts I've come across since spending time on this forum.

Edited December 9, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

The one way Westerners are made unsafe in their homes is by unconditional support to Israel which invokes more extremism. The one way we can all be safe including Israel is by coming to a decent peace proposal. 

Utterly naive black & white thinking.

And twisted.

Reality proved to be many times just the opposite.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Lol these terrorists have butchered innocent men, women elderly and children, they have committed great atricorcy. Fat privileged and wealthy Hamas terrorists.

Not only that, they also steal humanitarian aid from the Palestinians of Gaza and sell it in high prices. All the money and aid comes to Gaza ends in their greedy hands.

People here cannot even agree when I call hamas a "virus". They insist they are people! Thats what important right now in their eyes.

So you expect them to admit a truth in a five sentences length explanation? A waste of time.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[kenway]

@Nivsch Please could you translate what this IDF solider is saying? I'm genuinely interested in his perspective. (For balance etc).

 

[zazen]

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

People here even cannot agree to call hamas a "virus".

Unlike bacteria, viruses are not considered living organisms because they cannot carry out essential life processes on their own. Instead, they rely on the host cells to replicate and reproduce. The host that empowered it and causes it to exist is your habibi Bibi Netenyahu and the conditions of the Palestinians.

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

They insist they are people! Thats what important right now in their eyes.

You mock forum user's who I think are balanced and not ill intentioned but then say things like this. The first step in resolving a issue is to not dehumanise the other but understand the cause and chain of events that lead them to their actions. The overton window has shifted so far right in Israeli society that neutral or centrist takes are considered unbalanced it seems.

''So you expect them to admit a five sentences explanatiom length? ''

I replied to you with much more than 5 sentences - in fact I responded with 5 points on why the 'best' peace proposal of Camp David wasn't good enough in meeting such basic criteria of a state to which you haven't even responded. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen Don't run from constructive critisism and return it back onto me even if it sounds a bit edgy to you, and rather confront the claims directly. The explanation about the virus vs bacteria sounds serious in your opinion?

Insisting hamas are "people" and "not a virus" is a symptom to a bigger problem here. Thats because of the need one feels to deffend hamas terrorists even if done only through teminology this is very problematic.

I am not saying you did that and maybe I had to respond directly to the one who did it and anyway there is nothing personal here.

Camp david message is quite long I will answer to this. Netanyahu is also to blame in the fact he have let hamas get stronger as a purpose strategy to avoid negotiation with the palestinian authority.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

24 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Don't run from constructive critisism and return it back onto me even if it sounds a bit edgy to you, and rather confront the claims directly. The explanation about the virus vs bacteria sounds serious in your opinion?

Insisting hamas are "people" and "not a virus" is a symptom to a bigger problem here. Thats because of the need one feels to deffend those people even if done only through teminology this is very problematic.

Don't invent things I did which I didn't 🙂

Camp david message is quite long I will answer to this. Netanyahu is also to blame in the fact he have let hamas get stronger as a purpose strategy to avoid negotiation with the palestinian authority.

You lost all respect on this forum with your virus comment. All you do is run around in circles and haven’t got a clue. You are no better than nazi Germans, who I’m sure referred to Jewish and Gypsy people as viruses. 
 

as for @Lila9 your posts are so whiney and flat now it’s impossible to reply to them. 
 

 

[Nivsch]

@Merkabah Star 

hamas terrorists as a virus analogy is correct.

Nobody said that word about palestinians.

Don't gaslight please.

Not gonna reduce myself to your message's level 🙂

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Utterly naive black & white thinking.

And twisted.

Reality proved to be many times just the opposite.

   What is twisted about @zazen's post? here:

'The one way Westerners are made unsafe in their homes is by unconditional support to Israel which invokes more extremism. The one way we can all be safe including Israel is by coming to a decent peace proposal.'.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

People here cannot even agree when I call hamas a "virus". They insist they are people! Thats what important right now in their eyes.

So you expect them to admit a truth in a five sentences length explanation? A waste of time.

   I merely said HAMAs were people one time mate. Okay, I'll call them humans or freedom fighters then. Also, why call them a virus? They don't resemble anything like a virus, from the robotic structure to RNA capable of changing the DNA coding of the cell the virus infects. If HAMAs were viruses we'd be in serious trouble, like Israel would be overrun by copies of HAMAs all over the place, even other Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Turkey, much of Iraq and Iran, the whole middle east, an actual human sized virus is a big existential threat to humanity and the world. Not sure HAMAs is on that level of existential crisis of the world.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

55 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Don't run from constructive critisism and return it back onto me even if it sounds a bit edgy to you, and rather confront the claims directly. The explanation about the virus vs bacteria sounds serious in your opinion?

Insisting hamas are "people" and "not a virus" is a symptom to a bigger problem here. Thats because of the need one feels to deffend hamas terrorists even if done only through teminology this is very problematic.

I am not saying you did that and maybe I had to respond directly to the one who did it and anyway there is nothing personal here.

Camp david message is quite long I will answer to this. Netanyahu is also to blame in the fact he have let hamas get stronger as a purpose strategy to avoid negotiation with the palestinian authority.

   But you ran from his criticism first?

   Why would some insist calling HAMAs 'people' and not a 'virus'? Have you heard of the terms dehumanization, demonization and thought terminating cliches? By calling a human group a 'virus' knowing that most society hate viruses and illness, and not 'people' or 'human' you created a psychological distancing and disassociation, you just made people feel disgust and more hatred for HAMAs and other groups like them, which makes negotiations with them harder when you think of them as 'viruses' and not 'people'. In fact Nazi Germany did just that, slowly ramped up anti-semitic, making the population associate their fall with the Jews, make the Jews less 'human', and less of a 'people', and more of a 'virus' to get rid of.

[Merkabah Star]

27 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Merkabah Star 

hamas terrorists as a virus analogy is correct.

Nobody said that word about palestinians.

Don't gaslight please.

Not gonna reduce myself to your message's level 🙂

What you deem as Hamas and Palestinians seems blurred to me, I’ve been reading this thread from the start. So yes, your virus concept is not exclusive to the terrorist group. You don’t fool me. 

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

33 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Merkabah Star 

hamas terrorists as a virus analogy is correct.

Nobody said that word about palestinians.

Don't gaslight please.

Not gonna reduce myself to your message's level 🙂

   Fine, keep that metaphor and analogy for you. I'll restore balance to be fair, I'll agree that HAMAs are viruses, and Israel is a parasite in that region, living off of land they colonized, pissing off HAMAs but much of the Islam world in that region, fair enough?

Edited December 9, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Merkabah Star]

2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nivsch

   Fine, keep that metaphor and analogy for you. I'll restore balance to be fair, I'll agree that HAMAs are viruses, and Israel is a parasite in that region, living off of land they colonized, fair enough?

He throws out the virus word to deflect emotionally from the fact Israel is killing thousands of innocent children and adults, so he justifies it, like the nazis did with the Jews, by making them subhuman. All blame for children and civilians dying is put on the virus only. Israel are the victim. And like any virus it spreads fast. So it’s not just the terrorists, it’s the parents of the dead children for not teaching them to love Israel, then they are deemed part of the virus. 
 

this is a genocide. Labelling people a virus is genocidal and just fuels the bloodbath. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Merkabah Star

5 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

He throws out the virus word to deflect emotionally from the fact Israel is killing thousands of innocent children and adults, so he justifies it, like the nazis did with the Jews, by making them subhuman. All blame for children and civilians dying is put on the virus only. Israel are the victim. And like any virus it spreads fast. So it’s not just the terrorists, it’s the parents of the dead children for not teaching them to love Israel, then they are deemed part of the virus. 
 

this is a genocide. Labelling people a virus is genocidal and just fuels the bloodbath. 

 

   Yes it can be. It's a combination of dehumanizing, scape goat, and playing the race or the victim card here.

   I think at best it's just being bad faith, straw manning and misrepresenting by negative generalization. And to be fair, if he calls them names or starts demonizing, while we're all talking and conversing at least, and at most debating/arguing then it's justifiable to reflect that bad faith. Or remain good faith. Yes, it's partly 'genocidal', but more likely it's just dehumanization, and negative stereotyping and caricature. It's like we can't get anti-semitic here and that's okay, but then the other side gets to be Islamophobic and negatively stereotype Palestinians and Muslims?  

[kenway]

1 minute ago, Merkabah Star said:

He throws out the virus word to deflect emotionally from the fact Israel is killing thousands of innocent children and adults, so he justifies it, like the nazis did with the Jews, by making them subhuman. All blame for children and civilians dying is put on the virus only. Israel are the victim. And like any virus it spreads fast. So it’s not just the terrorists, it’s the parents of the dead children for not teaching them to love Israel, then they are deemed part of the virus. 
 

this is a genocide. Labelling people a virus is genocidal and just fuels the bloodbath. 

 

 

I agree with this. 

There is clearly a mass delusion going on right now where many political zionists simply cannot accept the notion that they are now "the bad guys".

But what Israel is doing right now is truly one of the most evil things that we, as human beings, have ever done. And because of that, Israel will ultimately collapse. Not because of any rockets, or missiles, or guns or tanks...but for the weight of it's own heartbreak when it realises what it has done to its own brothers and sisters.

You will drown by the tears of your own remorse.

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Merkabah Star said:

as for @Lila9 your posts are so whiney and flat now it’s impossible to reply to them. 

You just have no response because you know I'm correct. For you it's easier to attack me personally by saying that I'm whiney and flat rather than responding to the matter. Gotcha.

[Merkabah Star]

4 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

You just have no response because you know I'm correct. For you it's easier to attack me personally by saying that I'm whiney and flat rather than responding to the matter. Gotcha.

No. I just have standards. Yeah. 😀

[Lila9]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Exactly. And they are complaining we want to put an end to hamas while sitting in their (yet) safe home at the foot of the mountain from which they just moralize and throw instructions to Israel and to the 20 yo half-kids who are risking their lives right now. How low of a behaviour and how low self awareness.

Lol, their perception is indeed comes from ignorance and lack of real life experience of the conflict. All the info they gather is from biased X accounts. Intresting.