New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, kenway said:

 

But what is the alternative at this moment?

To not do security checks?

Sorry but this is very naive.

If the settlements will stop from expanding and there will be an agreement the situation can be improved, but the palestinians has refused any proposal until now.

Just to blame one side is childish. There is a gordian knot which has to be solved.

The arresting he mention at the end is not just arresting of innocent people but hamas people.

But what if the line is not always clear between hamas people and civilians who just do uprising?

Sometimes the differentiating can be difficult, but in the other hand, what do you want IDF to do to not arrest people being suspected as participate in terror? 

Oh but thats exactly what have been done in Gaza. No arresting of anybody and anything for 18 years. And what we have got in return? exactly.

But Ok keep playing to the other side's hands with this simplistic conclusions from your safe (for meanwhile at least...) home in canada and france.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Nivsch

[lina]

18 hours ago, Nivsch said:

No.

Hell no.

Have never heard about this desire here in Israel.

There are people who want all the west bank and part of gaza strip and they are Ben Gvir's party in the far right-wing and maybe one more party to the at most.

 I understand most Israelis are not really planning for a greater Israel, but one thing the Israeli state has proven over time is that they use land grab as a method of "self-defense", which means if for any reason in the future Egypt, Iraq, Syria or Lebanon thought of attacking Israel, they will definitely find an excuse to expand to 'Greater Israel'. Notice when some Israelis talk about Egyptian Sinai, they would say something like "we gave up Sinai for peace", as if it was theirs to begin with! 

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But what is the alternative at this moment?

To not do security checks?

Sorry but this is very naive.

Yup that what happens when someone starts a circle of violence, it keeps dragging them into more and more 'unwanted' violence under the inevitable need for 'self-defense'.  

In response to your mention of the Canadian journalist video, does that mean you no longer support the 2 state solution? because my understanding was that you found settlements to be "problematic". 

[lina]

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

What you're seeing is Israel not tip-toeing around Hamas tactics anymore because they are so pissed and serious now after 7/10, still not an ethnic cleansing though. 

https://theintercept.com/2023/12/03/netanyahu-thin-gaza-population/#:~:text=Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu,the late Republican billionaire Sheldon 

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has tasked his top adviser, Ron Dermer, the minister of strategic affairs, with designing plans to “thin” the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip “to a minimum,” according to a bombshell new report in an Israeli newspaper founded by the late Republican billionaire Sheldon"

If that's the case can you please explain why Netanyahu seem to think otherwise? Also, why is Israel preventing aid and food into Gaza? 

Edited December 7, 2023 by lina

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But what is the alternative at this moment?

1. Precision striking of Hamas infrastructure. I saw a clip where Israel literally managed to destroy 1 floor in the middle of a building. The building was standing, it was untouched EXCEPT the specific floor which was blown out. That is what surgical attack is. If it was employed in Gaza widespread the civilian casualities would be reduced dramatically. However their own Generals said "We are aiming for destruction, not accuracy" which is a flawed policy. So Israel is fully capable to save innocent Palestinians from dying but it choses not too. Will send the clip later. This is how you get rid of Hamas without radicalizing an entire new generation of people. And I do agree Hamas needs to be eliminated. 

2. Start teaching at schools the past atrocities like the Nakba and apologize for them. Germany apologizes for the Holocaust and other bullshit they did. Also Israelis should become aware that their country was built on the back of others. Same way USA for example was built. USA citizens are aware of it though and although it cannot be undone, they do recognize it. Israelis are totally in the dark and think they found an empty desert and built utopia there. Nakba cannot even be mentioned. See the difference.

3. Stop indoctrination and dehumanization of Palestine and Arabs. Just like racist talk in USA gets you canceled, the same should happen for anti Palestine talk in Israel. 

4. Remove the current corrupt right wing government with a less racist and power hungry government without radicals like Ben Gavir.

5. Stop the illegal settlements and give heavy punishments for everyone that tries to do it instead of funding them.

6. Stop putting Palestinian kids to jail in inhumane conditions just for throwing rocks and other small bullshit. Give more fair hearings to them too. This applies to West Bank.

7. Start applying with Interntional Laws and actually listen to UN instead of insulting them and denying them visas whenever they say you are commiting war crimes according to international law which you yourself have agreed to follow.

These are some of the things I can think of.

I am sure there is much more but I lack the knowledge to add.

If you dissagree with any of these, you or any pro Israeli here feel free to write your points.

 

[zazen]

@Karmadhi Good list 👌🏼

Religious texts can easily lead to radicalisation if ignorantly interpreted.

Edited December 7, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

Their can’t  be peace if the IDF shutdown any protest or talks from Israelis that favour or humanise Palestinians:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0iAML0uBnx/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D

If Israel is a democracy and democracy claims to be by the people for the people and represent the people, then the following seems to show a sentiment opposing peaceful coexistence.

 

[Twentyfirst]

22 hours ago, Nivsch said:

No.

Hell no.

Have never heard about this desire here in Israel.

There are people who want all the west bank and part of gaza strip and they are Ben Gvir's party in the far right-wing and maybe one more party to the at most.

If Israel wants to punish all Palestinians for the actions of Hamas then the same should happen for Jews. If there are people in your leadership that want all of the West Bank then all Jews are responsible and should be held accountable. No more double standards. No more hypocrisy. No more setting rules for others that you refuse to follow for yourself. No more pikachu face when you get attacked 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Twentyfirst

[Vrubel]

@Karmadhi You must learn how stage red operates and then maybe you'll get some appreciation for Israel. You might think Israel is evil but at the end of the day, it's still a reasonable nation-state actor like most countries in the world. Stage red is not a respectable actor, it will see any compassion and goodwill as weakness and exploit it to the fullest. Hamas carried out the attack precisely because it knew it would not get genocided in return and that the UN would happily become its greatest ally in calling Israel to a halt. 

Israel cares first and foremost about its own people and it needs to ensure that civilians can once again live in those border kibbutz villages. Notice how nobody can really care or take responsibility for Israel's security aside from Israel itself. Not the US, UN and certainly not a pro-Palestine entity. 

As a Jew, I know nobody is really going to guarantee the security of Jews other than Israel. The Irony is that before this war I felt more and more alienated from Israel due to Netanhyahu's politics. But I am now fully behind Netanyahu because Israel needs to restore its most basic security and deterrence once again. Supporting Palestinians would have been a no-brainer if they weren't so underdeveloped, dysfunctional (stupid), and supporting terror. To me, they have zero moral high ground. 

If you want a good case study on dealing with stage red. You can learn about the truly fascinating history of how the Soviet Union got involved in Afghanistan. They actually got involved because they thought that the local communist dictator went completely overboard in how cruelly he dealt with dissent but when the Soviets took over they ended up doing the exact same. If you read about the mentality of the Afghans and the insane cruelties committed by both parties, Israel will seem like an angel. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Vrubel

[Danioover9000]

@kenway

14 hours ago, kenway said:

 

Shlomo Yitzchak getting out of Zionism.

   Also, just general body language analysis, often he illustrate points with his hands, but also he furrows brows with certain word choices. Furrowing brows can mean some anger/frustration, but also focusing and concentration. Given the context, likely he's feeling frustrated with some concentration. Seems genuine that he feels frustrated with that whole past situation and him discovering what Palestinians are behind the walls, and frustrated at the check points.

   Reminds me of another context with protesters and one video of a guy being in one, when the police and special units started to crowd control the protesters he felt how they felt.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

1. Precision striking of Hamas infrastructure. I saw a clip where Israel literally managed to destroy 1 floor in the middle of a building. The building was standing, it was untouched EXCEPT the specific floor which was blown out. That is what surgical attack is. If it was employed in Gaza widespread the civilian casualities would be reduced dramatically. However their own Generals said "We are aiming for destruction, not accuracy" which is a flawed policy. So Israel is fully capable to save innocent Palestinians from dying but it choses not too. Will send the clip later. This is how you get rid of Hamas without radicalizing an entire new generation of people. And I do agree Hamas needs to be eliminated. 

Thats what have been done in previous operations. Now I believe we try also to do this but maybe not with the same effort which can be critisized I am not saying that it can't, but also I don't know enough to say how much surgicality is realistic with that amount of terror targets and how much isn't.

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

2. Start teaching at schools the past atrocities like the Nakba and apologize for them. Germany apologizes for the Holocaust and other bullshit they did. Also Israelis should become aware that their country was built on the back of others. Same way USA for example was built. USA citizens are aware of it though and although it cannot be undone, they do recognize it. Israelis are totally in the dark and think they found an empty desert and built utopia there. Nakba cannot even be mentioned. See the difference.

I would argue about the doses but its OK for me to talk about the other side's pov too.

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

3. Stop indoctrination and dehumanization of Palestine and Arabs. Just like racist talk in USA gets you canceled, the same should happen for anti Palestine talk in Israel. 

The same should happen in parallel in the palestinian society.

If only Israel will do this nothing will improve because the palestinian's education is something in another dimension which teach to kill other people.

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

4. Remove the current corrupt right wing government with a less racist and power hungry government without radicals like Ben Gavir.

I wish it will happen.

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

5. Stop the illegal settlements and give heavy punishments for everyone that tries to do it instead of funding them.

Stop the expansion. To evacuate thousands of people is not realistic.

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

6. Stop putting Palestinian kids to jail in inhumane conditions just for throwing rocks and other small bullshit. Give more fair hearings to them too. This applies to West Bank.

This happens sometimes I know and its a problem.

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

7. Start applying with Interntional Laws and actually listen to UN instead of insulting them and denying them visas whenever they say you are commiting war crimes according to international law which you yourself have agreed to follow.

He exaggarate the things greatly and his demands are absurd, hypocrate and highly biased.

It is enough to listen seriously to USA critisism which is often really OK and decent.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Karmadhi You must learn how stage red operates and then maybe you'll get some appreciation for Israel. You might think Israel is evil but at the end of the day, it's still a reasonable nation-state actor like most countries in the world. Stage red is not a respectable actor, it will see any compassion and goodwill as weakness and exploit it to the fullest. Hamas carried out the attack precisely because it knew it would not get genocided in return and that the UN would happily become its greatest ally in calling Israel to a halt. 

Israel cares first and foremost about its own people and it needs to ensure that civilians can once again live in those border kibbutz villages. Notice how nobody can really care or take responsibility for Israel's security aside from Israel itself. Not the US, UN and certainly not a pro-Palestine entity. 

As a Jew, I know nobody is really going to guarantee the security of Jews other than Israel. The Irony is that before this war I felt more and more alienated from Israel due to Netanhyahu's politics. But I am now fully behind Netanyahu because Israel needs to restore its most basic security and deterrence once again. Supporting Palestinians would have been a no-brainer if they weren't so underdeveloped, dysfunctional (stupid), and supporting terror. To me, they have zero moral high ground. 

If you want a good case study on dealing with stage red. You can learn about the truly fascinating history of how the Soviet Union got involved in Afghanistan. They actually got involved because they thought that the local communist dictator went completely overboard in how cruelly he dealt with dissent but when the Soviets took over they ended up doing the exact same. If you read about the mentality of the Afghans and the insane cruelties committed by both parties, Israel will seem like an angel. 

+1 🧡

[Nivsch]

@danniel IDF may behave too loosely sometimes in this war especially when this is done from distance (with justifications or not I really don't know enough honestly I believe sometimes not), but contrary to that IDF also goes out of its way to help manage the things for palestinian civilians when get in direct contact with them in a way that honestly this is not common at all to see in other war zones in the world.

War cannot be a clean thing, not when you have to heal the body from a virus taken over it all and made also palestinians lives very bad to begin with even before this war.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

1. Precision striking of Hamas infrastructure. I saw a clip where Israel literally managed to destroy 1 floor in the middle of a building. The building was standing, it was untouched EXCEPT the specific floor which was blown out. That is what surgical attack is. If it was employed in Gaza widespread the civilian casualities would be reduced dramatically. However their own Generals said "We are aiming for destruction, not accuracy" which is a flawed policy. So Israel is fully capable to save innocent Palestinians from dying but it choses not too. Will send the clip later. This is how you get rid of Hamas without radicalizing an entire new generation of people. And I do agree Hamas needs to be eliminated. 

2. Start teaching at schools the past atrocities like the Nakba and apologize for them. Germany apologizes for the Holocaust and other bullshit they did. Also Israelis should become aware that their country was built on the back of others. Same way USA for example was built. USA citizens are aware of it though and although it cannot be undone, they do recognize it. Israelis are totally in the dark and think they found an empty desert and built utopia there. Nakba cannot even be mentioned. See the difference.

3. Stop indoctrination and dehumanization of Palestine and Arabs. Just like racist talk in USA gets you canceled, the same should happen for anti Palestine talk in Israel. 

4. Remove the current corrupt right wing government with a less racist and power hungry government without radicals like Ben Gavir.

5. Stop the illegal settlements and give heavy punishments for everyone that tries to do it instead of funding them.

6. Stop putting Palestinian kids to jail in inhumane conditions just for throwing rocks and other small bullshit. Give more fair hearings to them too. This applies to West Bank.

7. Start applying with Interntional Laws and actually listen to UN instead of insulting them and denying them visas whenever they say you are commiting war crimes according to international law which you yourself have agreed to follow.

These are some of the things I can think of.

I am sure there is much more but I lack the knowledge to add.

If you dissagree with any of these, you or any pro Israeli here feel free to write your points.

 

   That's a decent list. Nothing wrong here.

[Danioover9000]

Very interesting debate here by this YouTuber that covers Israel/Palestine and does side with Palestine and against Israel causing them this human crisis. Debate opponent is also ex Palestinian now Zionist:

 

[Raze]

Israel has now killed more journalists than the rest of the world in all of 2022

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-LEBANON/JOURNALIST/akveabxrzvr/index.html

Twitter account of a Palestinian poet who Israel just killed in an airstrike

https://twitter.com/itranslate123

https://lithub.com/poet-and-scholar-refaat-alareer-has-been-killed-by-an-israeli-airstrike/

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Raze

[Nivsch]

13 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Very interesting debate here by this YouTuber that covers Israel/Palestine and does side with Palestine and against Israel causing them this human crisis. Debate opponent is also ex Palestinian now Zionist:

 

Wow a great video!

I listened to it ALL.

And the most interesting thing is that the pro Israel side is a palestinian 😵

He was so reasonable in his claims.

But the interviewer (the podcast owner) was impulsive, cutted him all the time in the middle and cutted him off the interview at the end and his claims were utterly childish, and if I remove his wrong terminology (genocide? 😂 ) his claims are rooted in 10-20% of truth because Israel has responsibility to not trigger their initial tendencies and to be more just in the settlements issue.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Nivsch

[numbersinarow]

14 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

Very interesting debate here by this YouTuber that covers Israel/Palestine and does side with Palestine and against Israel causing them this human crisis. Debate opponent is also ex Palestinian now Zionist:

 

GoodEmpanada thinks he can bring up the srebrenica example of retaliation against muslims being called genocide, while agreeing with that, to show that what Israel is doing should be called genocide (and that part is true). But if you are establishing that your source is comprised of liars and snakes who hold that kind of a double standard, then just don't use that source.

[Nivsch]

Happy Hanukkah 🕎🥰

Today we light 2 candles (not include the one in the middle which is the "Shamash").

Every day we light one candle more than the day before, until the 8th day in which we light all the eight candles.

Its not a coincidence this holiday celebrated during the darkest days of the year when the sun set is the earliest and its maximal altitude during the day is the lowest.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah

Edited December 8, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

12 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Wow a great video!

I listened to it ALL.

And the most interesting thing is that the pro Israel side is a palestinian 😵

He was so reasonable in his claims.

But the interviewer (the podcast owner) was impulsive, cutted him all the time in the middle and cutted him off the interview at the end and his claims were utterly childish, and if I remove his wrong terminology (genocide? 😂 ) his claims are rooted in 10-20% of truth because Israel has responsibility to not trigger their initial tendencies and to be more just in the settlements issue.

   Why is it a great video?

   The most interesting thing is a pro Israeli is a Palestinian, and not how he was brainwashed by Zionism to be pro Israeli???

   Now, if you did listened to it ALL, then list ALL the timestamps when he made such reasonable claims, and if you can't list ALL OF THEM, and miss just one, then why claim he's being so reasonable?

   The interviewer BadEmpanada, or the interviewee John Aziz who's the one being impulsive? Also BadEmpanada has this to say about John Aziz:

   'I've been contacted by members of John Aziz's family. He claims to be a Palestinian who represents Palestinians. But he's barely seen them since he was 5 years old. They tried many times to reach out & include him, he was never interested. They are shocked to see that he advocates for Zionism now. While they think everyone has the right to their opinion, they are angry that he claims to be Palestinian while doing so.

   The truth: John has visited the West Bank one time, and visited his father's family in the USA a couple of times. That's it. Far, far from what he claimed in his article for The Atlantic, where he painted himself as fluently bicultural, and lied about visiting the West Bank multiple times and spending every Christmas with his Palestinian family in California. John does not speak Arabic. He does not know anything about Palestinian culture nor is he involved or immersed in it. He does not know any other Palestinians nor interact with any. Here is what one family member had to say about him being "Palestinian": "John does not speak Arabic at all as far as I know. He had very limited contact with his dad. He only visited Palestine for days when he was 4. His formative upbringing did not include any palestinian elements. No language, no songs, do stories, no food, no communication with family, no living experience in Palestine.

   He is totally disconnected from the Palestinian experience, culture, life, communication, history, struggle etc. He has zero Pslestinian immersive experience. He never took any active measure to have such an experience despite the continuous urging and welcoming of his Palestine family. Never actively communicated with his Palestinian side of family. Never called, never participated in major happy or sad social events, was never there. Even though his cousins were always trying to contact him and engage him via social media like Facebook, he was never keen in having a deep humane relationship with them. That all is understood and is his full right. Many people of Palestinian origin or ancestry lose contacts with motherland, as it happens with all nations and ethnicities. That's perfectly normal. But for John to claim suddenly discover his non-existent Polynesian half, and suddenly transforms onto a Palestinian speaking as a Palestinian voice on the Palestinian trauma and struggle from the platform of being a Palestinian is a deceptive thing, to say the least."

   John Aziz (his real name is not Aziz, I don't know why he calls himself that) saw an opportunity on October 7th to gain fame and fortune by claiming to be a Palestinian while advocating for Israel. Obviously Zionists lapped this up, they are always looking for traitors. But his claims to be Palestinian are spurious and based off nothing but ancestry. That he even mentions that as if he had anything resembling a Palestinian life or experience is laughable. And it's only due to that lack of experience that he can be so callous & selfish. In doing this, John Aziz is even slandering his father. In the Atlanic article, he paints his father negatively, as someone who wanted one state with the expulsion of all Israelis. This is weird, since John Aziz barely knew his father. He basically invented a false history. John's father is dead. He cannot defend himself.

   But one of his family member's who knew him well had this to say about him: "The other minor point that deeply troubles and hurts me is his mentioning that his dad has advicated for the destruction of Israel. This is very untrue. Indeed it is very sad and pathetic too. I have known Adil for so many years and had thousands of hours of discussions with him on all issues of life. On the Palestinian issue he was very passionste and committed to the rights of his people, but he was pragmatic and humane. He never advicated to the destruction of Israel or the Jewish people in Israel/Palestine. His stance was that the Palestinians have right to freedom in their homeland. In particular, Adil was anti Muslim Brotherhood and anti Hamas all the time. He criticized their ideology and tactics, specially targetting civilians. For John to say that about his dad, when his dad is away and can not defend himself, is both very hurtful and injust. It is either he really did not know what his dad's lifelong position was, or he is simply saying things to cast himself as the Palestinian son who rebelled against his dad's genocidal doctrine." All in all, John Aziz is a massive fraud, and his relatives are taking notice. The Atlantic should unpublish his article and issue a formal apology for not fact checking his story. John Aziz's twitter account is @aziz0nomics. It has gained tens of thousands of followers in just the two months since Oct 7, purely off this "I am Palestinian and I support Israel" grift. Disgusting that he lies about himself for self benefit like this.

   In summary: When John's family in Jenin were asked about him, their response was "Who is John?"'

[Nivsch]

@Danioover9000 Why "brainwashed"?

Why not just convinced? Or thought for himself and made his own conclusions?

If he is brainwashed, then everyone is.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Nivsch