New War In Israel / Gaza

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Karmadhi

   Yes, bias 101, but actually it's hypocrisy 101.

Just like how Israel says its okay to take land because the UN says so but ignores international law of everything else 

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen Nothing surprises me about IDF anymore at this point...

 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

1 hour ago, zazen said:

@Vrubel @Nivsch 

Agreed theirs plenty wrong within Arab societies and they need to do their own work. The external environment amplifies this. But it’s difficult to know whether a certain group is truly developed or  ‘civilised’ or that certain groups are just wealthy enough to pretend to be. If Americans were put in Gazans situation would it be any different. Even Ehud Barack said “If I was [a Palestinian] at the right age, at some stage I would have entered one of the terror organizations and have fought from there.”

Even if they are less developed and it’s not entirely Israel’s fault for how they are - it doesn’t justify or make Israel’s actions right.

Stages of development doesn’t make one group or person a different species that are inherently evil. It just means one group has developed more but those elements of other stages are still there lying dormant. Culture evolves faster than biology, and whilst we are in biological form we are chained or grounded by biology. Stage yellow and turquoise sages are still susceptible to biological reality as Osho was to his ill health despite being awakened or ‘developed.’

Developed groups still have the ancient instincts we finger  point less developed groups for acting upon, and the more developed groups can just pull at those instincts in different ways. You can be a stage green eco terrorist for example - growth can also be a cancer.
 

Is a broken orange/green society still better than a healthy red/blue society? Possibly, but a more developed society has more powerful tools with more leverage and potential for destruction which could make them more of a threat. A stage red primitive tribe might be sick and dangerous but their destruction will only be localised to their village surroundings whilst a stage orange techno-capitalist superpower though having more inclusive and broader values including democracy and science can inflict a negative global impact if this stage becomes sick, pathological or unhealthily manifest.

 

A highly developed society generally has more powerful instruments / tools, but if the individuals of that society become unhealthy their potential for chaos is greater. The individual and wielder of the tool needs to be just as developed - a parrallel match because the stakes are higher. A sick red society may only cause ripples on the world stage due to their limited tools of power but a developed orange society with more powerful tools will cause a tsunami of damage.

 

We can use spiral dynamics to make sense of the world or make our sense of self more righteous in relationship to others lower on the spiral.

 

In the past it was whoever can defend the land keeps it - rights to land are based on the might of those fighting for it. With a national consciousness spreading and bordering up of the world including the Arab regions this would have eventually trickled to the Palestinians, they just didn’t get there in time for the nationalising party which kicked off in the mid to late 1940’s.
 

Obviously nationalising can be taken to an extreme where every group, tribe or sect want their own nation - I’m not sure where that starts and stops and what a healthy amount is to be honest. For example now even Barcelona want to separate from Spain.

If this Israel Palestine scenario was happening in the past people wouldn’t make such a deal of it as the unspoken word then was whoever had the might had the right but today we live in a post expansionist world - at least when it comes to geography. Powers now expand through commerce and capital. The board game of geography is replaced with the board rooms of corporations - but that’s another conversation.

   Very good post. True about nationalizing, post expansionist and modernized world, and techno-capitalist corporations or big tech companies.

   Yes, we can use Spiral Dynamics to make sense of the world, but it's important to keep in mind self biases and preferences that plays into how we use Spiral Dynamics. We can have an Israeli here, and a Palestinians there, and let's assume both use Spiral Dynamics. You can bet one side will use and weaponize Spiral Dynamics to justify Israel's evil actions, whilst the other side will also use and weaponize Spiral Dynamics to justify their evil actions. In this hypothetical, it's clear we need other modals of reality, and other groups of authority to adjudicate the usage of those modals, as we should clearly see that a Palestinian using this modal has an agenda and bias to make their side the better and the other the evil, but so does an Israeli have a bias and agenda to make HAMAs and Palestinians like animals in comparison to the saintly Israeli. This is also why we have the legal and court systems of today, and evolve away from tribal revenge killings because when we leave the justice system to the perpetrator and victim that creates cycles of hate that can be generational.

[Nivsch]

12 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

 

This thing has happened in the 2000's in some of the sub units within the combatants.

There is idiocy and toxic cells everywhere you go all over the world, but you choose to cherry pick those to create toxic symmetry which can happen only in fairy tales between Israel and the medieval barbarism arount it.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

within IDF this is relatively rare. 

Mass killing kids and breaking international laws unfortunately is not  

I saw recently a British UN in Gaza saying "This is a war on childreen".  A guy from a country that supports Israel that is actually in Gaza since 2 months says that. It shows so much about what is going on there.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Twentyfirst

8 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Just like how Israel says its okay to take land because the UN says so but ignores international law of everything else 

Just like how Israel says it's okay to take land because the UN said so? Did they? I thought the UN condemned Israel for committing international war crimes and condemned them for taking land?

[Nivsch]

31 minutes ago, lina said:

I understand you represent a reasonable Israeli perspective, but I still cannot find any justification even for shooting their leg. Making people crippled for life or amputees is not something to be taken lightly. Especially because this was in the occupied territories of west bank, from a legal and moral point of view Palestinians have every right to resist. 

Technically this is not that simple when parents send their poor children to put an exclusive device to IDF soldiers. You don't appreciate how different their world view from me and you. This is not just hamas. 

But anyway if they can neutralize them by unharming materials like the police use to control violent protests this is of course better.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Twentyfirst

Just like how Israel says it's okay to take land because the UN said so? Did they? I thought the UN condemned Israel for committing international war crimes and condemned them for taking land?

I mean back in 48 with the British and UN 

[Lila9]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Wow thats great and so true (the whole message I just cutted the punchline) Like it.

You wrote in from your own? Its genius.

Zionism here got a new function as a mental frame people use here as often as they breath, to keep them in distance from Israelis and above them, and not confront the fact they are humane exactly like them.

Thank you  

I had a creative spark at night, glad that you liked!

That's hilarious how people describe Zionists and what evil characteristics they attribute to them, without realizing that they are normal people dealing with terror, not that different from the average American, French, German or any other hunan who may deal with the same Islamic terror threat.

A Zionist = a Jew who wants to live in his only ancestral land. So simple.

 

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

43 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You are right. Come visit here and judge for yourself.

This is an honest thing to say. We all might be that way if we were palestinians. I want to believe I would be different because even here I hate any herd thinking especially in health and mental health issues, but yes I could be one of them I can't know.

I want to believe stage red can look healthier than the palestinians culture. They are not only red (mainly red) but also there is something more there, you can see the cruelty and the roughness in every thing they do also to themselves. There must be here something more like a kind of mental disorder in a collective scale.

I think healthy blue is better than broken orange. Thats for sure.

Also I think the right frame is "Transcend, include and forget".

When orange becomes green he remembers again some blue and purple qualities. But now they get mixed with orange to create a new color but this is not that new except the color.

Development I think is realizing things you are in your subconsious ( and the deepest self) to begin with but you just have not seen them clearly before,

But also to itself if its unhealthy like you see in the palestinians.

Agree. Also in the health and mental health of people being toxicated with victim mentality "because this is how your brain is" "This is genetic so you can only live with it" "Those thoughts are just a meaningless disorder and bring nothing more with them" "Just tame your brain with techniques becuse it is a stupid machine" etc.

Agree.

   Is it reasonable and safe to tell a user to come visit and judge yourself in Israel, West Bank or Gaza when there's a war going on?

   You don't like conformity, yet you excuse the conformity and group think in Israel and Zionism?

   How is Palestinian culture stage red? Do you mean HAMAs or Palestinians in general, and why use Spiral Dynamics to generalize? Also, if there's some collective mental disorder in Palestinians, then does Israel have a collective mental disorder from Nazi Germany's holocaust? Is the cause for Palestinian's collective mental health disorder caused by Israel's actions?

   How is healthy stage blue better than excess stage orange?

   How is 'transcend, include and forget.' the right framing, considering you misquoted Ken Wilbur's 'transcend and include.'. Why include 'forget.'? Is there something you want the world to forget about Israel's actions?

   Why are you personifying Spiral Dynamics colours when this modal is about human values evolution: 'when orange becomes green he remembers again some blue and purple qualities. But now they get mixed with orange to create a new colour but this is not that new except the colours'? Are you conflating Spiral Dynamics with colour theory?

   If development is when a person realizes things within their subconscious they haven't realized before, how does this help the Israel/Palestine conflict when both sides are in deep denial of and are ignorant of their actions? Also you said it's quite unhealthy in Palestinians, but what about the Israelis taking land from them, and being lead by Zionists and nationalists who are similar to Nazi Germany? Is Israel and Israelis then, by your meaning of development, not developed enough?

[Lila9]

Heartbreaking how many cultures have been removed due to Islamic occupation of the middle east. 

The middle east looked differently prior to Islam, many many beautiful cultures. Huge variety.

And now there is Islamic superiority there and everyone who is not a Muslim is doomed to constant violence and terror attacks.

Islam occupied 50 countries, and nobody's care but when Jews return to their only homeland after being occupied and expelled twice, everyone shouts that Jews are occupiries of the poor Muslims.

And not only that, they expect from Israel to tolerate the abuse of the Muslim Arabs who call themselves Palestinians and "treat them better" despite these poor Palestinians wanting to eliminate all the Jews, and despite Jordon, Lebanon and Syria still treating the Palestinians in their territory like a class B citizens. The quality of life of Palestinians in Arab countries are worse that the life quality of Palestinians of the WB and Gaza together.

Yet, nobody cares about Palestinians in the Arab countries 🙂

Syria alone expelled 850,000 Palestinians. Nobody cares. 

What an hypocritical world 🤦🏼‍♀️

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Lila9

[Nivsch]

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Is it reasonable and safe to tell a user to come visit and judge yourself in Israel,

I meant generally. But Israel itself is quite OK even now. besides the missiles being shot to here every couple of hours but maybe that only me that got used to it.

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

You don't like conformity, yet you excuse the conformity and group think in Israel and Zionism?

In what context? I don't understand.

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

How is Palestinian culture stage red? Do you mean HAMAs or Palestinians in general,

hamas has not been elected in open air. Those civilians who elected it and those civilians who were dance in glory in the streets after 7.10.

Those are civilians who educate their children to kill Israelis and to think Shahids are herous.

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Is the cause for Palestinian's collective mental health disorder caused by Israel's actions?

But this ideology was here also in 1930's with Amin El Husseini and his supporter which was before Israel.

Hezbollah in Lebanon (aren't occupied by anyone and anything) holds the same ideology.

Their barbarians views towards other groups within them too.

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

How is healthy stage blue better than excess stage orange?

Stage orange has gone too far in his technicall view of life, health, mental health and forgot the importance of meaning and spirit from stage blue.

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 How is 'transcend, include and forget.' the right framing, considering you misquoted Ken Wilbur's 'transcend and include.'. Why include 'forget.'? Is there something you want the world to forget about Israel's actions?

Partially forget but it doesn't sound as good  Not everything I write is because of Israel Lol

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Why are you personifying Spiral Dynamics colours when this modal is about human values evolution:

But why not a single person develop also in this way?

I am not saying this is perfect but rather the reality is very complicated and the development is also in parallel.

Someone get in a year for example 25% of green and from them he makes 9% of yellow which from them 0.6% of turquoise.

And the year after 15%, 11% and 1.3% respectively.

Thats at least how I feel it happening in real life for myself.

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Zionists and nationalists who are similar to Nazi Germany?

How it can be even 0.1% that way this is crazy you will have to explain this claim.

42 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Is Israel and Israelis then, by your meaning of development, not developed enough?

Israel is blue-orange-green and have a lot to developed into of course.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Lila9

3 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Heartbreaking how many cultures have been removed due to Islamic occupation of the middle east. 

The middle east looked differently prior to Islam, many many beautiful cultures. Huge variety.

And now there is Islamic superiority there and everyone who is not a Muslim is doomed to constant violence and terror attacks.

Islam occupied 50 countries, and nobody's care but when Jews return to their only homeland after being occupied and expelled twice, everyone shouts that Jews are occupiries of the poor Muslims.

And not only that, they expect from Israel to tolerate the abuse of the Muslim Arabs who call themselves Palestinians and "treat them better" despite these poor Palestinians wanting to eliminate all the Jews, and despite Jordon, Lebanon and Syria still treating the Palestinians in their territory like a class B citizens. The quality of life of Palestinians in Arab countries are worse that the life quality of Palestinians of the WB and Gaza together.

Yet, nobody cares about Palestinians in the Arab countries 🙂

Syria alone expelled 850,000 Palestinians. Nobody cares. 

What an hypocritical world 🤦🏼‍♀️

 

   How is it heartbreaking that many cultures were removed when Islam occupied the middle east, taking into account the rampant rapes and pillaging that these tribal cultures often do with each other due to differences in worship, in iconography, in having multiple nature deities, in having fringe worldviews? Those stage purple/red tribes can't even agree on a consensus reality that doesn't include their tribe as the dominant structure in that consensus, and when Islam emerged as a religion seeking to unify under it's organized religious structure the many tribes, the many stage red/purple tribes violently resisted.

   Yes, I agree the middle east looked so differently before Islam emerged out of necessity, so many varieties of deity worship, tribalism, tribal warfare, slavery, murders and rapes, vast and huge in so many ways to live life per tribal structure that who knows who had the right way to live life? Do you know which tribal structure is best for the world then? Do you know which way of tribal life is best in the middle east?

   Yes I know right? When Islam has superiority everyone in that place is so violent under the caliphate Islamic subjugation, under the Sufi and Shia differences and similarities, with their interpretations of the Quran. Damn, Indonesia and it's Muslim dominant Islands so violent, it's a miracle how Islam can mix well with Hinduism and Buddhism and Christianity in some of those Islands.

   I agree nobody cares about Palestinians and those other 50 occupied Islamic countries, but conversely nobody cared to point out that Israel is pseudo copying Nazi Germany's expansionism and mistreatment of Palestinians in Gaza and West bank as second class citizens, to guess what? being called an anti-Semite, maybe worse than being called Islamophobic right?

[kenway]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

A Zionist = a Jew who wants to live in his only ancestral land. So simple.

It's not simple though, or at least not in this regard. It has been said: most Jews aren't Zionists, and most Zionists aren't Jewish.

Factoring in Christian Zionism, for example.

And Political Zionism wasn't as concerned with ancestral homelands, as the Messianic Zionists.

Which leads to the question: Are the Religious Zionists exploiting the Political Zionists?

I have a lot of empathy for the Political Zionists - it's not an unreasonable movement. But Religious Zionism is crazy, racist, dangerous, and spiritually malfunctioned.

 

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Lila9

   How is it heartbreaking that many cultures were removed when Islam occupied the middle east, taking into account the rampant rapes and pillaging that these tribal cultures often do with each other due to differences in worship, in iconography, in having multiple nature deities, in having fringe worldviews? Those stage purple/red tribes can't even agree on a consensus reality that doesn't include their tribe as the dominant structure in that consensus, and when Islam emerged as a religion seeking to unify under it's organized religious structure the many tribes, the many stage red/purple tribes violently resisted.

   Yes, I agree the middle east looked so differently before Islam emerged out of necessity, so many varieties of deity worship, tribalism, tribal warfare, slavery, murders and rapes, vast and huge in so many ways to live life per tribal structure that who knows who had the right way to live life? Do you know which tribal structure is best for the world then? Do you know which way of tribal life is best in the middle east?

   Yes I know right? When Islam has superiority everyone in that place is so violent under the caliphate Islamic subjugation, under the Sufi and Shia differences and similarities, with their interpretations of the Quran. Damn, Indonesia and it's Muslim dominant Islands so violent, it's a miracle how Islam can mix well with Hinduism and Buddhism and Christianity in some of those Islands.

   I agree nobody cares about Palestinians and those other 50 occupied Islamic countries, but conversely nobody cared to point out that Israel is pseudo copying Nazi Germany's expansionism and mistreatment of Palestinians in Gaza and West bank as second class citizens, to guess what? being called an anti-Semite, maybe worse than being called Islamophobic right?

Islam is the problem in the Middle East! Not zionism that literally says that only Jews can live in a specific area and everyone else has to die horribly! Don't pay attention to Zionism. Instead pay attention to Islam which is similar to Judaism and Christianity! 

 

[StarStruck]

 

 

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

Islam is the problem in the Middle East! Not zionism that literally says that only Jews can live in a specific area and everyone else has to die horribly! Don't pay attention to Zionism. Instead pay attention to Islam which is similar to Judaism and Christianity! 

 

Zionism is literally only 50-60 years old in the middle-east. It doesn't belong there in the first place. All pasty white people who wouldn't survive a week in the sun without getting cancer.

Edited December 5, 2023 by StarStruck

[How to be wise]

17 hours ago, Vrubel said:

man... Just look at Gaza right now... Aren't you supposed to care for these people?

Just imagine having a leadership that dehumanizes the shit out of you. 500km of tunnels, not a single civilian shelter! It does a horrific attack and then goes back to hide under your family's house. It absolutely doesn't give a fuck whether you live or die or how many of its own will get buried under the rubble. But Hey, we killed Jews, so totally worth it!

This is not the path of resistance, it's the path of being as dumb as a brick wall.  

The path of peace is the only path (especially for Palestinians if they want to be viewed as normal humans, first and foremost by their own government.)
 

Hamas is enjoying widespread support among Palestinians, both in Gaza and the West Bank. When Israel withdraws from Gaza, they will simply re-elect Hamas. And if any elections ever take place in the West Bank, Hamas will rule it also. This war has guaranteed Israel will never be safe, since the Palestinians now want Hamas more than ever. 

[How to be wise]

4 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Syria alone expelled 850,000 Palestinians. Nobody cares. 

When did Syria expel 850,000 Palestinians?

[Nivsch]

8 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Hamas is enjoying widespread support among Palestinians, both in Gaza and the West Bank. When Israel withdraws from Gaza, they will simply re-elect Hamas. And if any elections ever take place in the West Bank, Hamas will rule it also. This war has guaranteed Israel will never be safe, since the Palestinians now want Hamas more than ever. 

Thats why IDF has to stay in the west bank.

[Vrubel]

Gaza a week before the war. Now a civilization gone with the wind. Because why choose life when you can kill Jews?