New War In Israel / Gaza

[Philipp]

A question to all, which is not about moralizing or taking sides, just about predicting. 

What do you think will be the future of the Palestine/Israel conflict?

1)    Israel control over entirety of Palestine and most Palestinians end up leaving to other countries. 

2)    Israel control over entirety of Palestine, and Palestinians stop resisting and continue to live there under very poor conditions.

3)    Israel control over entirety of Palestine, and Palestinians stop resisting and continue to live there under good conditions

4)    Israel control over entirety of Palestine, but Palestinians keep violantly resisting and war continues for the next 20+ years.

5)    2 autonomous, independant, peacefull states.

6)    2 autonomous, peacefull states, but Palestine is not allowed to have a military. 

7)    2 autonomous, independant, peacefull states, but with completly different borders.

8)    unification of Israel and Palestine, under a secular constitution.

9)    Israel anexation of Palestine, but Palestinians gain full citizenship. 

10)  Israel anexation of Palestine, and most Palestinians are forced to leave. 

11)   Israel dissolution and Israelis gain full citizenship in Palestine. 

12)   Israel dissolution and Israelis have to flee. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Philipp

[Vrubel]

@Philipp Nobody is going to force anyone out. The current geopolitical and diplomatic reality does not allow for that. What's needed is a 2 state solution + some creative out-of-the-box thinking to address the most contentious points. But given the current situation, I don't think there will be a solution any time soon. 

[Vrubel]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Poor europe.

Soon Israel will be the safer place to live.

Let alone London who seems last month like a formless UN ghost city with no character nor color nor self respect.

This is not liberalism. This is radical and suicidal stage green. When they become yellow in the future, I believe that every stage should get permission to express itself in the streets only according to its development and mainly to how healthy it is in the spectrum within his color.

Very frustrating the situation today.

Sweden took in 100.000's of Iraqis and Somalis as a gesture of pure goodness and compassion. Now they have regular riots, a massive uptick in crime and are in the global top 5 of countries with the most rape. How could you do such a thing to your beautiful peaceful country? I am all in for immigration and multicultural society on the condition that the immigrants share the same values. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Vrubel

[Twentyfirst]

@PurpleTree Been doing shrooms since you were in diapers. Just on this forum for shits and giggles.

One day you will not even need shrooms anymore!

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Sweden took in 100.000's of Iraqis and Somalis as a gesture of pure goodness, and compassion. Now they have regular riots, a massive uptick in crime and are in the top 5 of countries with the most rape. How could you do such a thing to your beautiful peaceful country? I am all in for immigration and multicultural society on the condition that the immigrants share the same values. 

Didn't white European Jews sneakily force themselves into the Middle East surrounded by brown Arab Muslims? How is that immigration based on same values? 

[Vrubel]

It's good to remember that the first decades of Israel were hallmarked by pro-peace leftwing idealism. If the Arabs were more pacified, like the Tibetans for example, they could have even guilted Israel into giving them a state. 

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

@PurpleTree Been doing shrooms since you were in diapers. Just on this forum for shits and giggles.

One day you will not even need shrooms anymore!

Sure

[How to be wise]

13 hours ago, Vrubel said:

After Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza in the 6 day war, they were extremely open to negotiating some settlement in exchange for peace and recognition. Back then Israel was still very tiny population-wise and overwhelmingly secular. The most important thing was to just to feel safe but of course they were in exchange confronted with the three no's of Khartoum: 

،لا صلح مع إسرائيل
،لا تفاوض مع إسرائيل
لا اعتراف بإسرائيل

No peace with Israel,
No negotiation with Israel,
No recognition of Israel

 

Israel was not supposed to wait until the Palestinians love them. As soon as both sides agree to end the war, which they did, Israel was meant to withdraw completely from their land. Instead they established Jerusalem as their capital, and have remained ever since. As for the meeting in Khartoum, I totally agree with them. No peace on stolen land. 

[Vrubel]

52 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

As for the meeting in Khartoum, I totally agree with them. No peace on stolen land. 

After the six-day war, there was an opportunity for talks. Israel was eager to give land for peace and there were zero settlements back then. 

For the Arabs, this whole conflict is like a stock investment that keeps on going down but they never divest from it to save their remaining amount. Some very profound opportunities for peace were rejected or ignored and with each such miss, the stock value gets even lower. 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Vrubel

[Raze]

 

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Vrubel said:

After the six-day war, there was an opportunity for talks. Israel was eager to give land for peace and there were zero settlements back then. 

For the Arabs, this whole conflict is like a stock investment that keeps on going down but they never divest from it to save their remaining amount. Some very profound opportunities for peace were rejected or ignored and with each such miss, the stock value gets even lower. 

 

The Palestinians leadres and maybe even most of the palestinian people are more passionate on what they feel is their "justice" and their life meaning which is to revenge Israel and destroy it as much as possible.

In other words they are more red than blue, and the evidence is that 65% of the palestinians support hamas and support oct 7th according to surveys done in the west bank even, according to Israeli middle east expert I heard in an interview yesterday.

Maybe their meaning in life is literally realy to get back their honor as they see it in their mind, and a "state" and an organized life are really too boring to them and not in their interests. 

I think we can understand better the intuition of it if we think on a 9 year old boy who just lost a wrestling game with a friend or even a fighting in a video game. His life meaning in this phase is only to beat his friends back. Peace is very boring and meaningless at this point.

But in the root it is not really Israel's fault. They were that way even in 1930's with Amin El Husseini's ideology. Irans regime is also like this in many senses, so Hezbollah in Lebanon.

All of this explain to us that the palestinians (and other arab tribes and groups) revenge emotions are deeply rooted in reasons which are not Israel but created way before it.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Nivsch

[How to be wise]

7 hours ago, Vrubel said:

After the six-day war, there was an opportunity for talks. Israel was eager to give land for peace and there were zero settlements back then. 

For the Arabs, this whole conflict is like a stock investment that keeps on going down but they never divest from it to save their remaining amount. Some very profound opportunities for peace were rejected or ignored and with each such miss, the stock value gets even lower. 

 

You’re supposed to give stolen things back, regardless of whether your victim wants peace. You are allowed to defend your land, but you are not allowed to steal the land of others and then demand peace. Israel will remain in conflict until it gives the stolen land back.

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

The Palestinians leadres and maybe even most of the palestinian people are more passionate on what they feel is their "justice" and their life meaning which is to revenge Israel and destroy it as much as possible.

In other words they are more red than blue, and the evidence is that 65% of the palestinians support hamas and support oct 7th according to surveys done in the west bank even, according to Israeli middle east expert I heard in an interview yesterday.

Maybe their meaning in life is literally realy to get back their honor as they see it in their mind, and a "state" and an organized life are really too boring to them and not in their interests. 

I think we can understand better the intuition of it if we think on a 9 year old boy who just lost a wrestling game with a friend or even a fighting in a video game. His life meaning in this phase is only to beat his friends back. Peace is very boring and meaningless at this point.

But in the root it is not really Israel's fault. They were that way even in 1930's with Amin El Husseini's ideology. Irans regime is also like this in many senses, so Hezbollah in Lebanon.

All of this explain to us that the palestinians (and other arab tribes and groups) revenge emotions are deeply rooted in reasons which are not Israel but created way before it.

This is a good analogy, the kid who lost to his friend and is now dedicating his life to beating him.

He chose to be a victim for the rest of his life because he lost the game, instead of switching his mindset towards building himself and living his own life.

Gaza could thrive, and so could the West Bank if they weren't so inclined towards hatred.

This ideology against Jews started long before any occupation occurred, which proves that it's not about any occupation, it's about Jews.

The famous Nazi book Mein Kampf, written by Hitler, is very common in Gaza and the West Bank, it's one of the best sellers there, and Hitler is seen as an inspiring figure rather than someone with a toxic ideology.

[Nivsch]

@Lila9 Honestly I don't think one can put his revenge emotions aside and just move on, but rather use those emotion in a healthy way as a fuel to become more successful than the other side they want to revenge. The problem is that the palestinians can't see the healthy option and maybe the best way is to awake them to this healthy revenge and inspire them to be like the emirates. It is difficult because it requires them to see glimpses of orange.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

@Nivsch Quit with the spiral dynamics garbage. You mentioned it a hundred times already. NOBODY is thinking about that because it doesn't matter nearly as much as you are trying to make it seem

[randmonzzin]

39 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Lila9 Honestly I don't think one can put his revenge emotions aside and just move on, but rather use those emotion in a healthy way as a fuel to become more successful than the other side they want to revenge. The problem is that the palestinians can't see the healthy option and maybe the best way is to awake them to this healthy revenge and inspire them to be like the emirates. It is difficult because it requires them to see glimpes of orange.

Healthy option? Do you feel their pain? Do you have a basic human sense? I'll live for rest of my living remembering these images and you think just like that you can forget this? 

I am not even in Palestine and I feel angry about these Isreal terrorists 

[Vrubel]

3 hours ago, How to be wise said:

You’re supposed to give stolen things back, regardless of whether your victim wants peace. You are allowed to defend your land, but you are not allowed to steal the land of others and then demand peace. Israel will remain in conflict until it gives the stolen land back.

Israel is supposed to do nothing. Peace is achieved by the two talking and signing concrete treaties, not by unilateral steps. Israel left Gaza unilaterally and instead of peace, they got Hamas and that's when it all started with the rockets and blockade.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

The audacity lies in considering it acceptable for one group to take the land of another, with whom they lived mostly well for centuries, and were even protected by from European pogroms and persecution.
 

To then engage in negotiations regarding the land they seized from that group, determining how much they will claim and then gaslighting any resistance as barbaric savage terrorism and making them feel guilty for the sins of the Holocaust which weren't theirs to begin with. They are then further gaslighted and labeled anti-Semitic for this when they themselves are semites. The anti-Semitic label is used as a verbal shield against any criticism and to muzzle rational voices. 
 

The actual crime that Palestinians are being punished for is refusal to submit. That’s all this conflict has ever been, from the very beginning. Palestinians refused to accept being thrown off their land and killed and forcibly displaced at the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, and that refusal has seen increasing violence and oppression under the premise that it’s possible to bomb and tyrannize a population into obedience.
Nothing will radicalize you toward violence faster than seeing your neighbors and loved ones ripped apart, and your dignity shredded on your own soil.

How dare the Palestinians resist, the Palestinians should just be peaceful in their blockaded strip of land where they were once given a controlled amount of calories as to be fed just enough to not die but not in excess as to be strong to resist. And the other Palestinians in West Bank should be at peace with the encroachment of their land via settlement expansion.

They should be at peace with their subjugation and humiliation, we should give them the power of now so they can learn the first step to peace is accepting the moment and so they can ascend to stage green.

The Zulus of South Africa, the Mau Mau of Kenya, the Vietnamese, the Afghanis, the Algerians - all should have just been at peace with settlers and imperialists who they resisted against successfully instead.

The way spiral dynamics is misused is when it’s used to create a colour apartheid and discriminate between one group of people who on average orients around a certain colour and another. Palestinians are primitive and stage red which is impulsive, primal and fights back but when Israel fights back its deemed as noble defence of a noble people higher up on the spiral dynamics ranking.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen The fact Hezbollah in Lebanon holds the same Ideology, so too Iran's regime and Amin El Husseini in 1930's, while they were not occupied by anything, add to that the cruelty the palestinians behave to their own people very often, proves the root of the problem is deeper than Israel, although it holds responsibility to the situation but as a secondary effect. The majority of the work has to be done is an inner work by the palestinians themselves.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@zazen The notion that Palestinians supposedly graciously welcomed, sheltered and protected Jewish refugees is complete nonsense. I do not deny the Palestinian right and connection to the land by the mere fact that they are living there but the truth is that there was no such thing as a Palestinian people because that national identity was yet to be developed in response to the Jewish one. All there was were some formerly Ottoman Arabs (often considering themselves Syrians) working the land who never had any country to begin with. They also never had the agency, institutions or resources to graciously "welcome, shelter and protect" Jewish refugees. Jews bought land and worked on it fair and square. Arabs never really united and were loosely spearheaded by an Islamist Nazi sympathizer who frequently met with Hitler or other Nazis. 

The slightest rumor was enough for the Palestinians to attempt a pogrom. Because the newly settled European Jews defended themselves with guns and barricades they committed a pogrom on the defenseless native Jewish population in Hebron. This is way before the establishment of Israel, occupation or West Bank settlements. 

In the early years, Israel was a very vulnerable socialist idealist nation of just a few hundred thousand. They would have accepted a lot for just a piece of land they could call their own. Now Israel is a considerable nation of many millions, a strong economy and a powerful army. After the six-day war, the Arabs had their golden opportunity to give peace and recognition to Israel in exchange for the West Bank and Gaza. Now, any such deal will have to keep into account the many settlements. Realistically Israel is not going to forcefully evacuate 300 000 of its own citizens. So really I think a future Palestinian state will have some Jewish minority. It will be yin yang, Israel has an Arab minority and the Palestinians will have a Jewish minority.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Vrubel