New War In Israel / Gaza

[Twentyfirst]

36 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Last year while traveling I met a German professor whose father was an SS officer. We talked about it in depth, it was definitely highly traumatizing growing up and being unable to respect your own father. He himself is an extreme leftwing liberal but he does admit that he has no right to criticize Israel in damning ways because he is starkly aware of why Israel has to exist and why it must be able to defend itself. He had a really interesting perspective. He also told me he gets tears in his eyes when he sees a Syrian refugee family walking the streets. Guilt and a sense of responsibility are definitely part of the trauma experienced by Germans. 

I think psychological trauma is an interesting topic. Most people have it in various degrees. I healed a lot of my childhood traumas using psychedelics but collected minor new ones since. Trauma is not all bad, it does mature you and can be a powerful motivational force. 

Sure whatever. The craziest thing is you guys are like Nazis now which is what gives me those mindless stormtrooper vibes 

[Twentyfirst]

37 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Last year while traveling I met a German professor whose father was an SS officer. We talked about it in depth, it was definitely highly traumatizing growing up and being unable to respect your own father. He himself is an extreme leftwing liberal but he does admit that he has no right to criticize Israel in damning ways because he is starkly aware of why Israel has to exist and why it must be able to defend itself. He had a really interesting perspective. He also told me he gets tears in his eyes when he sees a Syrian refugee family walking the streets. Guilt and a sense of responsibility are definitely part of the trauma experienced by Germans. 

I think psychological trauma is an interesting topic. Most people have it in various degrees. I healed a lot of my childhood traumas using psychedelics but collected minor new ones since. Trauma is not all bad, it does mature you and can be a powerful motivational force. 

So if the Germans are done massacring you why do you need a state to defend yourselves? They were the only ones against you and now they are gone so you are safe 

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

For sure Palestinians could have done things better. Good never ends. However considering their situation it is a lot harder for them to be expected to be perfect. I mean people in Gaza have family members dead, live in shit conditions etc. Meanwhile Israelis never had anyone die and live in rich land. By default who is expected more to behave properly? It is not rocket science.

Their conditions weren't that dire relative to Middle Eastern standards. Obviously, life got harder after Hamas came to power. The mentality is basically "life is shit, lets make it even shittier by attacking Israel".  
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Meanwhile Israelis never had anyone die and live in rich land. By default who is expected more to behave properly? It is not rocket science.

 

That's a very specific kind of bias: rich=bad, poor=good. Israel is behaving properly in that it needs to do what it takes to ensure the security of its people. A lot of Israelis have lost family and friends at 7/10 and are now fighting on the ground in Gaza in a dense urban environment to eliminate Hamas.

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Leo said it perfectly in an old thread. It is about a multipolar world and not being USA s bitch. USA wants a uni polar world with itself at the core and Russia does not want that. It has nothing to do with imperial glory. It has to do with Russian value systems not corrupted by Western values which they see as dangerous. 

Russia has the same GDP as Italy, horrible demographic outlook, its most talented people live in the West... etc... 

Realistically Russia will never be one of the great powers of the world. Let's say it's some time in the future and it's the Multipolar world. The first-tier superpowers are The US and China, the second tier will be countries like India, Brazil and Japan. And maybe only in the third tier next to countries like Mexico and Indonesia, there will be Russia.
The only way I can envision Russia being a strong, influential nation is as part of the Western block. This means it will no longer strife for (impossible) superpower status but will be one of the major players in Europe next to Germany and France. This isn't a far-fetched idea as many of the Russian youth desire integration with the West. A guy like Navalny is decently popular. I think he is a good example of Western ideals but in a coat of Russian culture. 

 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Crimea should not be in Ukraine. It has no Ukranians and a referendum done like 97% wanted to be in Russia. So it should be part of Russia. Ukranian nationalists can cry all they want about it. I used to think Russia did a big mistake with attacking Ukraine but from what I am seeing they are doing fine with all the sanctions while the West of Europe is struggling economically with the big gas price increase. Especially Germany. So I do not know who suffered more here.

Russians measure their economic prosperity by how many pies they can afford while Europeans do it by how many holidays they can afford.
The Russians most affected by the sanctions are private companies and businessmen that operate internationally which is a small but important part of the population. Russia also lost out on a lot of the soft power it used to yield, especially with former Soviet states. 

The annexation was still unlawful and a brazen breach of sovereignty. Russia got away with it pretty decently but overplayed its hand when they did their all-out invasion. 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Also can you please reply to this: How come when USA invaded Cuba because Russia wanted to put nuclear missles there it was ok but when Russia does the same with Ukraine everyone looses their shit? See the double standards. Russia having NATO (USA) missles at its backyard is ok but when USA has Russian missles at its backyard they loose their shit and invade. And that is apparently  ok. When Russia does it, it is not. Hypocrisy

I don't think there were any Nato missiles in Ukraine pointed at Russia. Even after the all-out invasion, The West did not supply missiles that could hit deep into Russia. The Bay of Pigs Invasion was not an all-out invasion by the US army. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

54 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

So if the Germans are done massacring you why do you need a state to defend yourselves? They were the only ones against you and now they are gone so you are safe 

1. There was no way of knowing Europe would eventually transform the way it did. 
2. Life directly after the Holocaust was still filled with large amounts of anti-Semitism and alienation. 
3. The surviving Jews had nowhere to return to as their homes were taken over by non-Jews.
4. Germans were not the only ones, there was widespread collaboration. 
5. There was still a lot of anti-semitism in the Soviet Union.
6. Also vulnerable Jewish communities in the Middle East, places like Iraq and Yemen.
 

[Twentyfirst]

32 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

1. There was no way of knowing Europe would eventually transform the way it did. 
2. Life directly after the Holocaust was still filled with large amounts of anti-Semitism and alienation. 
3. The surviving Jews had nowhere to return to as their homes were taken over by non-Jews.
4. Germans were not the only ones, there was widespread collaboration. 
5. There was still a lot of anti-semitism in the Soviet Union.
6. Also vulnerable Jewish communities in the Middle East, places like Iraq and Yemen.
 

So before when you said that Germany getting pounded turned it into peace loving country you don't know for a fact if that was a direct link because much time had passed between the transformation

So why today in 2023 do the Jews need a country and to defend themselves if we now know that the Europeans are done with that

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Their conditions weren't that dire relative to Middle Eastern standards

Do some research before making such absurd claims.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

That's a very specific kind of bias: rich=bad, poor=good.

It is more like: The people that have not suffered are less justified in barbarism than those that suffered. Most Israelis have not suffered compared to most people in Gaza. 

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Realistically Russia will never be one of the great powers of the world. Let's say it's some time in the future and it's the Multipolar world. The first-tier superpowers are The US and China, the second tier will be countries like India, Brazil and Japan. And maybe only in the third tier next to countries like Mexico and Indonesia, there will be Russia.

Russia is the largest country in the world and biggest nuclear power. Those alone give them a lot of power and influence. Also they have influence over a lot of countries, ex USSR ones and now also becoming popular with Africa. Also friends with China.

I would put Russia below USA and China. However Russia has a lot of control and it quickly making friends with fast developing countries in Africa.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

The only way I can envision Russia being a strong, influential nation is as part of the Western block

I would also like that but unfortunately Russia is still too underdeveloped to see the West as an ally. Also the West is quite judgemental about Russia and wants to make them USA s bitch. Russia has a lot of pride for that. So here we are. Ideally I would see Russia as part of EU and all the continent united under 1. Maybe one day.

However as long as USA controls EU it will not happen unfortunately.

 

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Russians measure their economic prosperity by how many pies they can afford while Europeans do it by how many holidays they can afford.
The Russians most affected by the sanctions are private companies and businessmen that operate internationally which is a small but important part of the population. Russia also lost out on a lot of the soft power it used to yield, especially with former Soviet states. 

I know many that live in Russia and they said that life barely changed after the war. People live the same. Meanwhile Western Europe has a big energy crisis and most of the middle class is suffering. Cutting gas supply from Russia was a big mistake.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

The annexation was still unlawful and a brazen breach of sovereignty. Russia got away with it pretty decently but overplayed its hand when they did their all-out invasion

Crimea being part of Ukraine was already a big mistake to being with. Why should a place where majority are Russians be part of Ukraine that does not even have Russian as an official language? It is absurd. Belgium for example has less than 1% of its population German speakers, yet German is an official language. This is what true democracy looks like. Ukraine was anti Russian in some ways before the war, at least language wise.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

I don't think there were any Nato missiles in Ukraine pointed at Russia. Even after the all-out invasion, The West did not supply missiles that could hit deep into Russia

There could be if NATO joined. You cannot take that risk. Keep in mind Russia has historically been invaded through Ukraine so it cannot afford such carelessness. Nazis invaded USSR the same way. They have historical reasons to be paranoid.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

The Bay of Pigs Invasion was not an all-out invasion by the US army.

Still an illegal invasion of a sovereign country. Keep in mind Russia at first did not plan to actually annex Ukraine, just overthrow their anti Russian government and install a pro Russian one. Not saying it is right but it makes sense.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Do some research before making such absurd claims.

There were definitely a lot of problems including unemployment. Life for Gazans got undeniably worse after Hamas came to power. Such will be the nature if you're ruled by a terrorist organization. But still, they could have had satisfying meaningful lives with their big families and religion. There is always a choice for progress. Before the war Israel was negotiating to allow more Gazans to work in Israel addressing the unemployment issue and helping many people out. Instead, they chose war. So here we are.
 

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

It is more like: The people that have not suffered are less justified in barbarism than those that suffered. Most Israelis have not suffered compared to most people in Gaza. 

Sure, but it's a very specific bias. My bias is to feel protective of the more developed "modern" educated people. I will have more sympathy with the kidnapped boy with glasses and a love for Rubik's cubes than a 16 year old Palestinian arrested for throwing stones and acting like riff-raff. 
 

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Russia is the largest country in the world and biggest nuclear power. Those alone give them a lot of power and influence. Also they have influence over a lot of countries, ex USSR ones and now also becoming popular with Africa. Also friends with China.

I would put Russia below USA and China. However Russia has a lot of control and it quickly making friends with fast developing countries in Africa.

Russia has a lot of potential but not in its current form. The modern Russia was at the height of its power and status the day before the Ukraine invasion after which the king turned out to be naked.

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I would also like that but unfortunately Russia is still too underdeveloped to see the West as an ally. Also the West is quite judgemental about Russia and wants to make them USA s bitch. Russia has a lot of pride for that. So here we are. Ideally I would see Russia as part of EU and all the continent united under 1. Maybe one day.

However as long as USA controls EU it will not happen unfortunately.

The USA is the big guy with muscles and a baseball bat that guarantees Europe's security. How else can we eat our fancy cheese and drink our wine so peacefully? 
 

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I know many that live in Russia and they said that life barely changed after the war. People live the same. Meanwhile Western Europe has a big energy crisis and most of the middle class is suffering. Cutting gas supply from Russia was a big mistake.

Yes, I know that's how many Russians think. Russian mentality is different because they don't have the democratic tradition and aren't so whiny. An average Russian is used to living economically and resourcefully with the little they have.

What you never hear about is the many thousands of bereaved families now living in Russia thanks to Putin. 
 
I think Europe managed its energy crisis pretty swiftly, it's not a big issue anymore.
 

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Crimea being part of Ukraine was already a big mistake to being with. Why should a place where majority are Russians be part of Ukraine that does not even have Russian as an official language? It is absurd. Belgium for example has less than 1% of its population German speakers, yet German is an official language. This is what true democracy looks like. Ukraine was anti Russian in some ways before the war, at least language wise.

It was unlawful but sure they actually got away with it pretty decently, not spilling any blood also helped in making the sanctions not that significant. The all-out invasion is when shit hit the fan. 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

8 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Nazis invaded USSR the same way. They have historical reasons to be paranoid.

The fact that Russia cannot recognize that Europe has transformed since the time of the Nazis tells you more about Putin than about Europe. This is part of the 'misconception' that I mentioned earlier. Putin is completely deluded in thinking they are degenerate Satanists which makes him do stupid things like invading Ukraine. He is basically a criminal and assumes everybody else is the same because that's his reality.   

Edited December 2, 2023 by Vrubel

[How to be wise]

On 29/11/2023 at 9:42 PM, Nivsch said:

So the jews are lost in your opinion? Cannot never have a country?

Just withdraw to the borders given to you by the U.N. partition plan. Easy.

[Raze]

 

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

Just withdraw to the borders given to you by the U.N. partition plan. Easy.

From each territory Israel withdraws it gets attacked from with rockets and terrorism, the latest attack has proven this. Israel can only withdraw from the West Bank if the Palestinians have a strong moderate leader that can keep proper law and order. Otherwise, Israel has to constantly get involved to break up the terror organizing. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Vrubel

[How to be wise]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

From each territory Israel withdraws it gets attacked from with rockets and terrorism, the latest attack has proven this. Israel can only withdraw from the West Bank if the Palestinians have a strong moderate leader that can keep proper law and order. Otherwise, Israel has to constantly get involved to break up the terror organizing. 

So why are you building settlements in occupied land? Occupation after war is meant to be temporary, until you negotiate a settlement and then leave. Yet Israel hasn’t left for 80 years. 

[danniel]

@Vrubel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs 

there are also articles that israel has made collecting rainwater illegal for Palestinians, palestine does not only needs a good leadership but also an occupier who does not implements inhumane rules and/or a non-lying neighboring government, who justifies killing 6000+ children, shoots kids on sight (one incident was from August when a teenager was shot in a car)  or in general who do not kill new born babies.

https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-left-premature-babies-die-alone-gaza-hospital 

or a government who does not occupies and controls water supply for civilians (and i use civilians here because it is the west bank)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/17/how-israel-uses-water-to-control-west-bank-palestine

hamas is  terrorist organization, not only because they try to kill their oppressor but also because of their religion.

[Leo Gura]

Breaking News: Israel makes it illegal to breathe in Gaza.

[Lila9]

 

[Nivsch]

16 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

 

Quite heartbreaking. Those brainwhashed children/teens are just posioned for life way before the first airplane of Israel has crossed the border, but on the real tragic the world won't talk. 

The problems being created to the palestinians in this war are barely 1% or even less in comparison to the real problem above, but Israel actions now are also really the only chance for them to heal in the long run.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, How to be wise said:

So why are you building settlements in occupied land? Occupation after war is meant to be temporary, until you negotiate a settlement and then leave. Yet Israel hasn’t left for 80 years. 

After Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza in the 6 day war, they were extremely open to negotiating some settlement in exchange for peace and recognition. Back then Israel was still very tiny population-wise and overwhelmingly secular. The most important thing was to just to feel safe but of course they were in exchange confronted with the three no's of Khartoum: 

،لا صلح مع إسرائيل
،لا تفاوض مع إسرائيل
لا اعتراف بإسرائيل

No peace with Israel,
No negotiation with Israel,
No recognition of Israel

 

[Twentyfirst]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

Quite heartbreaking. Those brainwhashed children/teens are just posioned for life way before the first airplane of Israel has crossed the border, but on the real tragic the world won't talk. 

Israel although the problems and room for critisim, makes only 0.1% of the problem, but the only chance to heal them in the long run.

Theres another chance for "healing"...give them full human rights 

[PurpleTree]

13 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Theres another chance for "healing"...give them full human rights 

Like in europe/germany etc?

 

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Like in europe/germany etc?

 

Idk what they are saying or what this is supposed to prove