New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

"In 2016, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch received several credible allegations of abuse and torture by the regiment.[234] Reports published by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented looting of civilian homes and unlawful detention and torture of civilians between September 2014 and February 2015 "by Ukrainian armed forces and the Azov regiment in and around Shyrokyne".[235][236]

Another OHCHR report documented an instance of rape and torture, writing: "A man with a mental disability was subject to cruel treatment, rape and other forms of sexual violence by 8 to 10 members of the 'Azov' and the 'Donbas' battalions (both Ukrainian battalions) in August–September 2014. The victim's health subsequently deteriorated and he was hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital."[236] A report from January 2015 stated that a Donetsk Republic supporter was detained and tortured with electricity and waterboarding and struck repeatedly on his genitals, which resulted in his confessing to spying for pro-Russian militants.[236]: 20 ". 

Actually if you do a bit research they have indeed linked with torture and other messed up stuff so they are quite fucked up as a regiment.

Oke, but I wasn't talking about individual cases. I was more talking about a wider modus operandi of barbarity like going into villages and butchering children in their beds and raping young women. Obviously, shady stuff will go on in interrogation rooms. Even so, Ukrainians at their worst are still magnitudes better than Russians at their best. Wagner for example glorifies executing people with a giant hamer. One of those hammers they have sent to the European Union, all bloodied up and everything. Just imagine how morally deprived you gotta be to be proud of such a thing. Regular Russian army is not much better, getting absolutely dehumanized is the main part of a Russian soldier's training.  

I would also add that Amnesty International kind of discredits itself by being such a whiny and deeply green organization lacking a certain level-headedness, realistic view of war, understanding of context and circumstances and responsibility to distinguish between degrees of barbarity. They have irresponsibly played into the hands of Russian propaganda despite there not being any real comparison between Russian and Ukrainian crimes. And yeah Ukraine is the one being invaded.
 

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Russia s GDP per capita is like 5 times larger than Ukraine before the war started so I think Ukraine is the shithole here  

It's true that Ukraine was a poor and highly corrupt country, much like Russia (the inequality in Russia is incredibly stark so GDP per capita might not be a fair metric. Obviously, they have more mineral/gas wealth and the two largest cities are relatively prosperous). Unlike Russia though, Ukraine is aware and has ideals and a vision to fix their country and build it up again according to the Western model and ideals. Russia doesn't like Ukraine thinking for itself.  

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Compare that to the most powerful army in the world at your doorstep that can kill everyone in your country if they want to. You cannot compare them. Yes a few hundred people dead will not hurt Israel much. We are talking on a country level here. Comparing Hamas with NATO is like comparing an ant to a dragon.

If you don't seem to understand why a country cannot allow for a "few hundred dead" from time to time, I don't think you understand some incredibly basic stuff about life. 
 

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Probably same way Israel did. Both bomb without caring about civilians dead. If you think Israel actually cares about the civilians dead in Gaza you are very naive. They cannot even prove that X person here is Hamas, they just go by guessing from an intelligence service that could not spot an attack from miles away. It is not credible. When most of Gaza at this point is razed to the ground you cannot really say that Russia would do much more. If 90% of Gaza was not attacked then you could say "Russia would have razed it to the ground", however Israel also is doing that.

My conclusion would be different. Israel does employ tactics to save civilians. I don't think Russians would bother themselves with such things. I think if Hamas was fighting Russia the civilians would flee immediately because they would know that Russians would not fuck around. Hamas can hide amongst its civilians, in hospotals and transport in ambulances precisely because they know it will make Israel think twice before striking. Off course after 7/10 Israel is so pissed it would more easily gravitate towards striking. But still, don't deny all the tactics Israel is employing to save civilians. 

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Putin does not decrease the level of democracy of Russia since Russia never had any to begin with. Meanwhile Israel did and their current PM actively tried to undermine it. Therefore relative to the level of democracy in their respective countries Benjamin is worse. 

Sure, you can argue what you want I am no fan of Netanyahu but at the end of the day Netanyahu and Putin are in different tiers. Netanyahu is like an American conservative (he actually is incredibly Americanized as he has lived there). Putin is like... well... A Russian dictator, a mob boss.

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I am not saying that there are not decent non racist people in Israel. However their current government which are the ones that actually take decisions are quite racist and radical. I saw clips of deputies calling for "Gaza to be turned into Dresden" among other things. Also I have seen countless videos of people mocking Palestinians or even celebrating at the bombings so they have a lot of people that are radicalized unfortunately. Way way more than countries like France, UK etc.

It's understandable that 7/10 generated a lot of anger. Yes, relative to the Uk and France, Isreal might be more racist because of the survival challenges they face. 

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

If you find me some proof I will change my position.

You cannot show weakness to a guy like Putin. A big part of why he invaded Ukraine and had his sights on Moldova is because of their perceived weakness. 
 

12 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

My bias is civilians getting treated equally and not only getting love if they are from specific countries. No love for Iraq childreen. Endless love for Ukranian and Israeli childreen. Dying by bombs or by a sword is irrelevant.

Its a general rule of life that people feel more closeness to the people they have cultural/ethnic/value affiliations with. In the case of stage green people, they will feel the most affiliation with "oppressed people". After 7/10 it became starkly obvious how little these people care for Israelis.

I would say if Netanyahu succeeded in hollowing out democracy and Israel would have only been ruled by the far right and religious messianic people, alienating out the "modern" secular people. I would too get alienated from Israel. But this is not the case, the 7/10 attack ironically united the country and discredited the extreme rightwing giving some hope to Israel's future political course. 

There was even talk of civil war. I do think Israel is too developed and Israelis too wealthy to have a civil war but there was this real danger of secular people emigrating out en masse due to political discontent and basically surrendering the country to rightwing religious rule.
 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

I was more talking about a wider modus operandi of barbarity like going into villages and butchering children in their beds and raping young women

Well Gaza has suffered a lot more from Israel than Ukraine from Russia since decades so it makes sense Hamas will be more hateful than Ukranians.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Even so, Ukrainians at their worst are still magnitudes better than Russians at their best

Because fighting is happening in their own land, they have no chance to show their "humanity". If Ukraine started invading Russian towns full of civilians then you can say they are "better". Until then you cannot prove it. How you treat civilians shows how "humane" your army is. But I would agree that Russians are very ruthless.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

getting absolutely dehumanized is the main part of a Russian soldier's training.  

Proof for such claims?

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Ukraine is aware and has ideals and a vision to fix their country and build it up again according to the Western model and ideals.

They had their current government for over 8 years and it was still very corrupt and poor. They did not do any reforms until the war started when it came to cleaning up corruption.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

If you don't seem to understand why a country cannot allow for a "few hundred dead" from time to time

Not allowing it is one thing. Calling it "an existential threat" is another. Killing 20x more civilians and commiting genocide is not a solution to a few hundred dead. 

Also, a few hundred dead if it is a legit security concern to you, imagine the threat of your whole country getting destroyed and everyone dying. That is the threat Russia faces with NATO at its door which you keep ignoring. I do not know how you can compare having the biggest army in the world which was created for the sole purpose to threaten you with a terrorist group.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

but at the end of the day Netanyahu and Putin are in different tiers. Netanyahu is like an American conservative (he actually is incredibly Americanized as he has lived there). Putin is like... well... A Russian dictator, a mob boss.

Because Israel and Russia are in different levels. For Russia Putin is not a downgrade, for Israel it is. They can do much better.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It's understandable that 7/10 generated a lot of anger. Yes, relative to the Uk and France, Isreal might be more racist because of the survival challenges they face

The issue is that they had this government before the attack, there were settlers expansion before the attack. Palestinians were treated like shit before the attack. That treatment is what caused the attack in the first place.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

A big part of why he invaded Ukraine and had his sights on Moldova is because of their perceived weakness. 

It is because of security concerns. USA literally did the same when USSR placed missles in Cuba. This is not about expansion, it is about security concerns. Yes he will not allow NATO at its backdoor. Neither would USA allow it if it is was in Russia s place. It is normal. 

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

After 7/10 it became starkly obvious how little these people care for Israelis.

The oppressor when attacked back gets less sympathy than the oppressed. If Israel was the oppressed here then leftists would care a lot more.

It may sound unfair but that is how leftists operate.

And yes leftists do call Israel an oppressor. You may disagree, you do you.

[Nivsch]

18 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Hamas is an ant for Israel in comparison.

This is not accurate. If Hizbollah which is also a terror organization although bigger, was particiapate too in oct 7th surprise Israel could be in a very serious problem.

At the second part you are trying to draw a symmery between Israel and Russia while they are not even close to each other in their values.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nivsch

[Sano Morphing]

Don’t take my words for it but this is how I see things (and the least qualified to say anything, really):

There is infinite bias here and few reasonable voices in the eyes of history. Historically War has been the vehicle for change all over the world, it forces change after all, there is no point in blaming and pointing fingers, in the end it’s going to play out as it should play out. When it comes to both sides, it all comes back to who’s being more human than the other given they had the power and chose not to be inhuman.

No one has the right to claim that they’re chosen by God as we’re all chosen by God, even that stray cat you find in the streets.

Sky news, BBC, Al-Jazera, whatever, we all better take stories from all sides and use our unbiased consciousness to decide which side is worth more emotional and financial investment. 

If a dragon keeps teasing a chained puppy, the pup will break the chains and attack the dragon, which will lead to the dragon firing back, but what’s happening is that furiously the dragon is destroying all the surroundings of the puppy except for the puppy itself with the excuse that a puppy was the target all along, ironically.

Anyone who kills is considered a terrorist but unlike ISIS, we need to remember that Israel, Hamas and whoever is contributing to this conflict got a political agenda and objectives and all of this is a strategic war with outcomes yet to come.

The age of a “religious country” is gone, and more and more we’re seeing countries embracing diversity and defining their identity based on all of its nation not based on what the majority believes, even in arab countries. This shouldn’t be applied only on Israel but also Iran, china, Pakistan and all countries.

Relax and stop taking yourself too seriously.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Sano Morphing

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Well Gaza has suffered a lot more from Israel than Ukraine from Russia since decades so it makes sense Hamas will be more hateful than Ukranians.

Ukrainians are not stage-red religious fanatics. Russians too are mostly secular and blue. much of the youth in big cities is pretty "modern". Normal Russian people are actually pretty chill they just don't have the democratic tradition. It's for example more normal in Russia to be non-caring and disconnected from the politics, which is mostly a stage red mafia game. 

If Russia were to take over Ukraine, as tragic and depressing as that would be Ukraine would still be fine in a sense. If Hamas would take over Israel they would murder everyone, it would be an absolute genocide. That's the existential dimension. It's also something recurring in Jewish history. A lot of nations get conquered or lose out. But with Jews, people are out to murder you. 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Because fighting is happening in their own land, they have no chance to show their "humanity". If Ukraine started invading Russian towns full of civilians then you can say they are "better". Until then you cannot prove it. How you treat civilians shows how "humane" your army is. But I would agree that Russians are very ruthless.

Ukrainians have no interest in Russian lands.

Like I am Russian, I wouldn't be supporting Ukraine if they were attacking Russia or committing horrible atrocities or had some fanatical ideology. The exact opposite is happening. 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Proof for such claims?

If you're a recruit in the Russian army they will beat you with a stick and humiliate the shit out of you.

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Not allowing it is one thing. Calling it "an existential threat" is another. Killing 20x more civilians and commiting genocide is not a solution to a few hundred dead. 

It is an existential threat. Israel nor any country has the right to exist if it can't protect its people from genocide, mutilation, rape and kidnapping. This was the greatest and most morbid hit to Israel in its entire history. 

The attack was basically Hamas begging to get genocided. Ironically genocide was how these issues got resolved historically. However Israel cannot do this in the modern age (Hamas knows this and exploits this) so the best Israel can do is go after Hamas with a heavy hand, unavoidably snaring up civilians as Hamas hides amongst them.  
 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Because Israel and Russia are in different levels. For Russia Putin is not a downgrade, for Israel it is. They can do much better.

 I hope Israel can do better too

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The issue is that they had this government before the attack, there were settlers expansion before the attack. Palestinians were treated like shit before the attack. That treatment is what caused the attack in the first place.

I agree that settlement expansion is problematic and fuels the cycle of violence, Palestinians get so fanatical that they do these kinds of terror attacks that make them suffer even more. The problem is both the current Israeli government and that the Palestinians are so underdeveloped that they can't fight for their rights in a healthy way that would win them significant sympathy, dignity and decency. Because right now the Palestinians seem like rabid terror supporters and incredibly low brow riff-raff. Palestinians are also not absolutely oppressed, they live in decent houses often with big gardens with olive groves.

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

It is because of security concerns. USA literally did the same when USSR placed missles in Cuba. This is not about expansion, it is about security concerns. Yes he will not allow NATO at its backdoor. Neither would USA allow it if it is was in Russia s place. It is normal. 

It's a mistake to be so paranoid about Nato. Europeans are not expansionists, they have good easy lives. They have zero appetite for war. But according to Putin, Europeans are degenerate Satanists so well... 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The oppressor when attacked back gets less sympathy than the oppressed. If Israel was the oppressed here then leftists would care a lot more.

It may sound unfair but that is how leftists operate.

And yes leftists do call Israel an oppressor. You may disagree, you do you.

Yes, they would only care about Jews if they were the "victim" according to their narrative of oppressed vs oppressor. Which is a very narrow way to look at the world and brings with it an obvious and gross distortion.   

[Karmadhi]

39 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Ukrainians are not stage-red religious fanatics. Russians too are mostly secular and blue. much of the youth in big cities is pretty "modern". Normal Russian people are actually pretty chill they just don't have the democratic tradition. It's for example more normal in Russia to be non-caring and disconnected from the politics, which is mostly a stage red mafia game. 

If Russia were to take over Ukraine, as tragic and depressing as that would be Ukraine would still be fine in a sense. If Hamas would take over Israel they would murder everyone, it would be an absolute genocide. That's the existential dimension. It's also something recurring in Jewish history. A lot of nations get conquered or lose out. But with Jews, people are out to murder you. 

Because of how they were treated by Israelis. It is cause and effect. If Israel treated them well they would not have the incentive to do this. You are ignoring all the shit they went through. If you were born in Gaza, you would be happy if you killed Jews too. And Israel is the one that put them in that spot.

39 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israel nor any country has the right to exist if it can't protect its people from genocide, mutilation, rape and kidnapping.

Sure but Hamas cannot wipe out Israel. NATO can wipe out Russia. Big difference.

36 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

It's a mistake to be so paranoid about Nato. Europeans are not expansionists, they have good easy lives. They have zero appetite for war. But according to Putin, Europeans are degenerate Satanists so well... 

This is some insane bias you have here. To YOU they are good. To Russia they are a powerful organization that was created against them. They have illegally invaded countries like Iraq so it is not like they do not wage war. From Russia POV they are a serious threat and therefore cannot be allowed at their doorstep. You cannot allow that sort of threat next to you. 

Just ask yourself this. If Russia put its nuclear missles in Cuba how would USA react. Oh yes, they reacted by invading Cuba. So USA is just like Russia when it comes to this.

Just to be clear, I do not support what Russia did but I do understand why they did it. Nor are their war crimes justifiable. However the death toll in Ukraine from what I saw is 10.000 civilians in 2 years of war and a population of 40.000.000 compared to 15.000 civilians in 2 months and a population of 2 million. Also 500 kids dead in Ukraine compared to 5000 in Gaza. So Ukraine seems a lot more humane war to me.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

36 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Ukrainians are not stage-red religious fanatics

A big issue which comes from Western propaganda is linking Hamas with religion when it is actually about land. The hatred they have towards Jews is not because of religion, it is because of how they were treated. They might be stage red but religion has nothing to do with their actions. If you grew up in a man made concentration camp you would sing a different tune.

[Nivsch]

55 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

A big issue which comes from Western propaganda is linking Hamas with religion when it is actually about land. The hatred they have towards Jews is not because of religion, it is because of how they were treated. They might be stage red but religion has nothing to do with their actions. If you grew up in a man made concentration camp you would sing a different tune.

Amin el husseini in 1930's and his supporters also grew up in a concentration camp?

Hassan nasralla the head of Hezbollah in Lebanon which its values are identical to hamas? Is Lebanon also a concentration camp?

And what about Yaser arafat who came here from the concentration camp Tunisia?

What about Boko haram in Nigeria?

Palestinian society has an inner disorder. Israel acts can for the most only be triggers that make this disorder worse, but have not created this disorder.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Because of how they were treated by Israelis. It is cause and effect. If Israel treated them well they would not have the incentive to do this. You are ignoring all the shit they went through. If you were born in Gaza, you would be happy if you killed Jews too. And Israel is the one that put them in that spot.

Everything in the universe is cause and effect but let's not play blame games. I definitely don't think the current Israeli government has been conducive to peace and I hold them responsible for that. I can clearly see the dysfunction within the Israeli government and how it first and foremost hurts Israelis. Though Israel is still a democracy with frequent elections and the centrum-left is much more open to peace, so these things can always change.

Now let's answer honestly to what degree did the Palestinians push themselves into a corner with their dysfunction and terrorism. 

Do you think Gaza would be blocked off if Hamas didn't come to power? I mean even Egypt joined in on the closing of Gaza so that should tell you something. 

Do you think Israel would bomb Gaza if Hamas never attacked?

Do you think Israelis would be much more sympathetic to Palestinians if they didn't commit and celebrate terror acts?

Do you think the Palestinians would be a more respectable and honorable people if they utilized their unique status in more conducive and healthy ways to achieve their political goals? 
 

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

This is some insane bias you have here. To YOU they are good. To Russia they are a powerful organization that was created against them. They have illegally invaded countries like Iraq so it is not like they do not wage war. From Russia POV they are a serious threat and therefore cannot be allowed at their doorstep. You cannot allow that sort of threat next to you. 

I know Russia's POV and I weigh it up against the Ukrainian and European POVs. The Russian POV is a part misconception and part "restoring old imperial glory". Nobody in Europe would support an all-out war against Russia. That doesn't even make any sense. 

Ironically the Invasion of Ukraine revitalized NATO, Finland even joined in.
The Crimea take-over before that got the Americans involved. All Russia is doing is shooting itself in the foot because of its backwardness and criminal-mindedness much like the Palestinians. I know both Russia and the Palestinians feel themselves wronged but such dysfunctional parties always end up pushing themselves into a corner.  

Edited December 1, 2023 by Vrubel

[Lila9]

I can't 😂😂😂

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0CHlzbNblN/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

[Twentyfirst]

On 11/30/2023 at 9:52 PM, Vrubel said:

You cannot attack a well-armed enemy and expect no response. The world has never worked like that. Hamas doesn't have the right to immunity when sheltering amongst civilians. You can do that but don't blame Israel when some civilians are snared up along the way. 

By that logic Israel should just nuke Germany. Didn't they kill 6 million Jews in the worst way possible? Why did you so easily forgive them but if another group kills a measly 1,400 you have to pound them? 

[Nivsch]

18 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

I can't 😂😂😂

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0CHlzbNblN/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

The end "What do you got? Dua Lipa?" 😂😂😂

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

16 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

By that logic Israel should just nuke Germany. Didn't they kill 6 million Jews in the worst way possible? Why did you so easily forgive them but if another group kills a measly 1,400 you have to pound them? 

Germany got pounded the shit out of it and transformed into a peace-loving highly respectable country. The Holocaust is a trauma for both Jews and Germans, which ironically bonds the two nations in current times. 

[PurpleTree]

 

[Twentyfirst]

31 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Germany got pounded the shit out of it and transformed into a peace-loving highly respectable country. The Holocaust is a trauma for both Jews and Germans, which ironically bonds the two nations in current times. 

The Jews also got pounded but didn't turn into peace-loving highly respectable people. And by the way the trauma is not what bonds Germans and Jews more like forced guilt and shame. German student kids are taught to hate themselves because of what the Nazis did 

[Vrubel]

Last year while traveling I met a German professor whose father was an SS officer. We talked about it in depth, it was definitely highly traumatizing growing up and being unable to respect your own father. He himself is an extreme leftwing liberal but he does admit that he has no right to criticize Israel in damning ways because he is starkly aware of why Israel has to exist and why it must be able to defend itself. He had a really interesting perspective. He also told me he gets tears in his eyes when he sees a Syrian refugee family walking the streets. Guilt and a sense of responsibility are definitely part of the trauma experienced by Germans. 

I think psychological trauma is an interesting topic. Most people have it in various degrees. I healed a lot of my childhood traumas using psychedelics but collected minor new ones since. Trauma is not all bad, it does mature you and can be a powerful motivational force. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Do you think Gaza would be blocked off if Hamas didn't come to power? I mean even Egypt joined in on the closing of Gaza so that should tell you something. 

Do you think Israel would bomb Gaza if Hamas never attacked?

Do you think Israelis would be much more sympathetic to Palestinians if they didn't commit and celebrate terror acts?

Do you think the Palestinians would be a more respectable and honorable people if they utilized their unique status in more conducive and healthy ways to achieve their political goals? 

For sure Palestinians could have done things better. Good never ends. However considering their situation it is a lot harder for them to be expected to be perfect. I mean people in Gaza have family members dead, live in shit conditions etc. Meanwhile Israelis never had anyone die and live in rich land. By default who is expected more to behave properly? It is not rocket science.

 

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

The Russian POV is a part misconception and part "restoring old imperial glory

Leo said it perfectly in an old thread. It is about a multipolar world and not being USA s bitch. USA wants a uni polar world with itself at the core and Russia does not want that. It has nothing to do with imperial glory. It has to do with Russian value systems not corrupted by Western values which they see as dangerous. 

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

The Crimea take-over before that got the Americans involved. All Russia is doing is shooting itself in the foot because of its backwardness and criminal-mindedness much like the Palestinians.

Crimea should not be in Ukraine. It has no Ukranians and a referendum done like 97% wanted to be in Russia. So it should be part of Russia. Ukranian nationalists can cry all they want about it. I used to think Russia did a big mistake with attacking Ukraine but from what I am seeing they are doing fine with all the sanctions while the West of Europe is struggling economically with the big gas price increase. Especially Germany. So I do not know who suffered more here.

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I know both Russia and the Palestinians feel themselves wronged but such dysfunctional parties always end up pushing themselves into a corner

Palestine suffered a lot more than Russia did so I do symapthize a lot with Palestinians and see them as victims.

I do not see Russia as victims nor support what they do. I just understand where they are coming from.

Also can you please reply to this: How come when USA invaded Cuba because Russia wanted to put nuclear missles there it was ok but when Russia does the same with Ukraine everyone looses their shit? See the double standards. Russia having NATO (USA) missles at its backyard is ok but when USA has Russian missles at its backyard they loose their shit and invade. And that is apparently  ok. When Russia does it, it is not. Hypocrisy

Edited December 1, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

The end "What do you got? Dua Lipa?" 😂😂😂

Lol, they also got Andrew Tate, Kim Jong Un, Putin.

All the saints, integrated and righteous people they got, standing with the freedom fighters, aka, Hamas, the men who kidnapped Israeli children and elderly just because they love them so much. How cute.