New War In Israel / Gaza

[StarStruck]

This is genocide

https://x.com/aabubakar43601/status/1730112158644441285?s=46&t=_b_ryXoCsOXMmPUcexEK7w

[kenway]

 

In this interview from 2014, Michael Ratner explains the Dahiya Doctrine.

This may offer a glimpse into the rationality for why Israel is targeting civilians.

[bariumly]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 These are not our values 

have u seen this : 

 

[kenway]

2 minutes ago, bariumly said:

have u seen this : 

 

 

Stuff like this blows my mind.

If this kind of thing is spoken about on camera, imagine the kinds of things that have been omitted.

When the post-Israel world arrives, ex-Zionists and their offspring will have a lot of apologising to do.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, StarStruck said:

This is genocide

https://x.com/aabubakar43601/status/1730112158644441285?s=46&t=_b_ryXoCsOXMmPUcexEK7w

No, this is populism.

The acrobat efforts IDF did in Shifa and with cooperation with the hospital staff you won't see in any other military in the world.

@kenway Dahiya doctrine aimed to deal with the a-symmetry between a military and a terror organization in harming infrastructures of it to silent it, after other attempts to stop its missiles shoothing into civilians areas didn't work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

Edited November 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[kenway]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

 

@kenway Dahiya doctrine aimed to deal with the a-symmetry between a military and a terror organization in harming infrastructures of it to silent it, after other attempts to stop its missiles shoothing into civilians areas didn't work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

 

....which encompasses the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of regimes deemed to be hostile as a measure calculated to create civillian suffering...

That's literally the first sentence from your own link.

[Nivsch]

29 minutes ago, kenway said:

 

....which encompasses the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of regimes deemed to be hostile as a measure calculated to create civillian suffering...

That's literally the first sentence from your own link.

Infrastructure... suffering...

This is still not killing of civilians. 

[kenway]

17 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Infrastructure... suffering...

This is still not killing of civilians. 

 

I appreciate that it's a long sentence. I'll shorten it for you:-

a measure calculated to create civillian suffering

Agree or disagree that this is part of the first sentence?

[Karmadhi]

To all you pro Israelis out there.

Quick question

I saw in 2014 Israel killed 2000 Palestinians, most civilians and close to 500 kids.

Meanwhile their loses were almost minimal, no terrorist attack like on 7th of October.

There were rockets launched from Hamas but nobody died from them.

Is it humane to kill 2000 people and 500 kids because some rockets were dropped that didnt kill anyone nor do much damage since they did not even hit the ground.

Most of the dying was because entire blocks were bombed instead of only specific buildings where rockets were launched from.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@kenway Yes to make the civilians put pressure on the terror organization controlling them.

Now you will probably ask but is it moral to cause suffering to innocent civilians and I will say that we cannot harm this organization effectively in other ways and you will say that we can.

Since we don't know the accurate truth happened, the pheripery of the data will be rounded to fit any side's agenda.

But the asymmetry between the two sides's values system is huge to the favor of Israel, that still has the responsibility to keep improving.

No point to argue about tactics when you will anyway try to maintain Israel as bad as possible.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

You cannot attack a well-armed enemy and expect no response. The world has never worked like that. Hamas doesn't have the right to immunity when sheltering amongst civilians. You can do that but don't blame Israel when some civilians are snared up along the way. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

You cannot attack a well-armed enemy and expect a soft whimsy response. The world has never worked like that. Hamas doesn't have the right to immunity when sheltering amongst civilians. You can do that but don't blame Israel when some civilians are snared up along the way. 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel So when the West basically threatens Russia security way more than Hamas could ever threaten Israel by telling Ukraine to join Nato and Russia tries to stop it, that is "horrible".

Double standards are immense.

Let me rephrase what you said from Russian POV.

"You cannot heavily threaten a superpower and expect no response".

Yet when Russia responds they get way more hate than Israel does for defending themselves.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Karmadhi

[kenway]

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@kenway Yes to make the civilians put pressure on the terror organization controlling them.

Now you will probably ask but is it moral to cause suffering to innocent civilians and I will say that we cannot harm hizbollah effectively in other ways and making him stop firing missiles and you will say that we can.

Since we don't know the accurate truth, the pheripery of the data will be rounded in opposite directions to fit the two sides agenda.

But, the asymmetry between the two sides's values system is huge to the favor of Israel, that still has the responsibility to keep improving.

Hezbollah started the war when kidnapped 3 soldiers and Hezbollah is in Lebanon when the occupation paradign cannot hold.

Thats the story and the argument about tactics is pointless.

1. You know as well as I that the religious Zionists have a dispensational interest in reducing the non-Jewish population within the broader region, whether that be via direct elimination, or via means of terrorisation. (i.e having no choice but to leave because they have no utility security - food, electricity, fuel, water, and so forth).

2. Suffering of civilians - regardless of pressure on executive authorities - is a war crime. You can try to justify it any way you want but unfortunately this is not the way the world works. Plus, anyone with just a modicum of enlightenment will easily point to suffering as a primary antagonist. If an entity is fine with suffering (irrespective of death), they cannot be in alignment with the protagonist mission. Or in other words: Deliberate invocation of suffering is spiritually antagonistic.

3. If Hamas was deeply embedded in residential complexes in Tel Aviv, would you consider "disproportional" Dresden-level destructions on Israeli citizens in Tel Aviv to be appropriate? If not, why not?

4. What personal methods do you use to make sure that you are not actually a racist or some kind of ethno-supremacist?

5. If you knew that in you next life, you would be reincarnated as a Palestinian woman living in Gaza City right now, how would that modulate your current world view?

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, kenway said:

1. You know as well as I that the religious Zionists have a dispensational interest in reducing the non-Jewish population within the broader region, whether that be via direct elimination, or via means of terrorisation. (i.e having no choice but to leave because they have no utility security - food, electricity, fuel, water, and so forth).

No I don't know because Israel does not want nothing as long as its neighbors are quiet.

2 hours ago, kenway said:

2. Suffering of civilians - regardless of pressure on executive authorities - is a war crime. You can try to justify it any way you want but unfortunately this is not the way the world works. Plus, anyone with just a modicum of enlightenment will easily point to suffering as a primary antagonist. If an entity is fine with suffering (irrespective of death), they cannot be in alignment with the protagonist mission. Or in other words: Deliberate invocation of suffering is spiritually antagonistic.

But with terror organization you cannot heal the situation without collateral damage because by definition it acts like a parasite.

2 hours ago, kenway said:

3. If Hamas was deeply embedded in residential complexes in Tel Aviv, would you consider "disproportional" Dresden-level destructions on Israeli citizens in Tel Aviv to be appropriate? If not, why not?

It would have done surgically at the same way the Kibuttses and villages near Gaza were released during 7-9 oct.

In Gaza the situation is different because hamas has built for years fortifications we cannot attack only with troops.

2 hours ago, kenway said:

4. What personal methods do you use to make sure that you are not actually a racist or some kind of ethno-supremacist?

Racism only looks that way when the other side doesn't fully convinced you need this racism to survive.

But if you must have this racist attitude to survive in a given environment then you are not really a racist.

And if you insist you are still a racist even then, then the racism term will loose all of its meaning and purpose.

2 hours ago, kenway said:

5. If you knew that in you next life, you would be reincarnated as a Palestinian woman living in Gaza City right now, how would that modulate your current world view?

I really don't know. Maybe if would have enough independent thinking to zoom out and to see hamas is more to blame that IDF, and in the day to day life I would be fearful of hamas and have anyway a good reason to hate it.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Karmadhi I am glad you brought that up. 

First of all, there is a difference between 'threaten' and 'attack'. Hamas always threatens Israel, but it also attacks. Something Ukraine never did, at least not before the Crimea takeover and not on Russian soil before the all-out invasion. The Americans only really got involved with Ukraine after the Crimea takeover.

Israel fights for bare survival against barbarism to protect its people from rape, murder and mutilation. Meanwhile, Russia dehumanizes its own people by mercilessly employing meatgrinder tactics. 

Even with a highly problematic government Israel is still a democracy with a strong civil society that ferociously fights for the maintenance of democracy and liberal values. It also has a relatively strong peace movement. Centrist and leftwing Israelis are very reasonable people and even the rightwing like Netanyahu is still relatively reasonable. You cannot compare him to Putin for example.  

Just compare something as the Jerusalem Post, Times of Israel and Haaretz to Russian propaganda. Look at corruption levels, gay rights, freedom of speech, minority rights like Israeli Arabs, you name it. 
 

7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Yet when Russia responds they get way more hate than Israel does for defending themselves.

It's not about hate and I don't think Westerners feel hate towards Russia but more the realization that we have to fight such aggression and backwardness otherwise we will be next. Western societies are more soft and compassionate and life is relatively easy, they never experienced direct threats to their survival. so naturally they will be turned off by the backwardness inherited in Russian and Arabic societies and there is also a lot of criticism of Israel. 

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Hamas always threatens Israel, but it also attacks. Something Ukraine never did, at least not before the Crimea takeover and not on Russian soil before the all-out invasion. The Americans only really got involved with Ukraine after the Crimea takeover.

Ukraine did indeed attack areas in Donetsk which are Russian majority and they had an infamous Azof Brigate which could be compared with Hamas in terms of how brutal they are. However, issue is not Ukraine but NATO having access to Ukranian soil, very close to Russia. Allowing them to place Nuclear Missles very close to Russia.

When USA had a similar threat during the Cuban Missle Crisis (Soviets wanted to put nuclear missles in Cuba, close to USA), the USA literally invaded Cuba (Bay of Pigs). 

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Israel fights for bare survival against barbarism to protect its people from rape, murder and mutilation.

Hamas is ruthless but they are not a big threat to Israel, they can never go more than a couple of kilometers into Israel soil. Meanwhile NATO can literally wipe Russia from the face of the earth easily. Hamas is an ant for Israel in comparison.  They can never destroy Israel no matter what bullshit slogans they say. Although the attack on 7th of October was horrible, it was barely a scratch on the country as a whole from a survival pov. And that was Hamas at their peak.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Even with a highly problematic government Israel is still a democracy with a strong civil society that ferociously fights for the maintenance of democracy and liberal values

However it is also highly racist and does not treat everyone the same, having strong elements of an aparthait state. It is indeed democratic for white Jews, which is not everyone there. Also, in what universe do liberal values are absolutely superior to other values? That is a very biased statement. Maybe Russians prefer their own values over Western values? How do you know that? Putin has way more support than most Western leaders.

 

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

rightwing like Netanyahu is still relatively reasonable. You cannot compare him to Putin for example.  

Netanyahu actively tried to undermine democracy and rule of law, so does Putin. However, unlike Russia, Israelis do not like that. So for Israel he is a worse leader. In terms of war crimes both are quite ruthless.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Just compare something as the Jerusalem Post, Times of Israel and Haaretz to Russian propaganda

The amount of brainwashing Israeli kids go through on hating Arabs and thinking they are chosen is also horrible. Not much different from Russian brainwashing. Since kids they are taught Arabs are evil and our enemy.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

It's not about hate and I don't think Westerners feel hate towards Russia but more the realization that we have to fight such aggression and backwardness otherwise we will be next

There is no proof that Russia will continue its conquest into Poland and further West. The most they will invade is Moldova and even that is not confirmed. Russia will never touch NATO, so the West is safe.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

turned off by the backwardness inherited in Russian and Arabic societies

They do not understand relativism and worthship democracies without realizing that they are horrible and do not work for every country. 

I do agree democracy is better than dictatorship but there is something that is worse than dictatorship. That is civil war and anarchy, chaos. And that is EXACTLY what underdeveloped countries go through once you topple their dictators. Libya, Iraq being two examples. So for these countries, dictatorship is the highest good at the moment. In the future this will change of course. Everything at its time.

I see Iran for example tired of their dictatorship, hopefully it will be removed once their Leader dies.

[Raze]

 

 

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Ukraine did indeed attack areas in Donetsk which are Russian majority and they had an infamous Azof Brigate which could be compared with Hamas in terms of how brutal they are. However, issue is not Ukraine but NATO having access to Ukranian soil, very close to Russia. Allowing them to place Nuclear Missles very close to Russia.

When USA had a similar threat during the Cuban Missle Crisis (Soviets wanted to put nuclear missles in Cuba, close to USA), the USA literally invaded Cuba (Bay of Pigs). 

Azov doesn't hide amongst civilians, nor do they brutally rape and mutilate. They are damn good fighters as they held of hordes of Russians many times their number. They are reasonable actors, they have for example the capacity for surrender. They are not some death cult that dehumanizes its own population. They exist to protect Ukrainian women and children and to ensure that future generations of Ukrainians don't have to live in some Russian shithole but are free to determine their own destiny. 
Being concerned at some "far right" aspects of the group is given the context and circumstances quite petty and irrelevant. 
 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Hamas is ruthless but they are not a big threat to Israel, they can never go more than a couple of kilometers into Israel soil. Meanwhile NATO can literally wipe Russia from the face of the earth easily. Hamas is an ant for Israel in comparison.  They can never destroy Israel no matter what bullshit slogans they say. Although the attack on 7th of October was horrible, it was barely a scratch on the country as a whole from a survival pov. And that was Hamas at their peak.

Oh boy, I am glad you're not in charge of Israel's security. How am I supposed to take this comment seriously? Well they cannot destroy Israel but they can on occasion rape, mutilate and kidnap a few hundred people. 
 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Netanyahu actively tried to undermine democracy and rule of law, so does Putin. However, unlike Russia, Israelis do not like that. So for Israel he is a worse leader. In terms of war crimes both are quite ruthless.

 It's true that both try to undermine democracy but on completely different levels and with completely different methods.

It's an interesting question. How would Israel have reacted if it was the same level of development as Russia, led by Putin and not being allied with the West?

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The amount of brainwashing Israeli kids go through on hating Arabs and thinking they are chosen is also horrible. Not much different from Russian brainwashing. Since kids they are taught Arabs are evil and our enemy.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Maybe you'll be surprised if you visit Israel. But obviously, racism and conservatism will be more prominent in a society that is facing these kinds of survival challenges. The general rule of any society is that the majority of people are pretty low-brow. But still Israel is way more "intellectually diverse" and developed than you might think. Jews and Arabs live together on day to day basis. Jews don't view them as evil and Arabs are to large degree contempt living or working in Israel. If you walk the streets in Israel you'll see enough Arabs. 
 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

There is no proof that Russia will continue its conquest into Poland and further West. The most they will invade is Moldova and even that is not confirmed. Russia will never touch NATO, so the West is safe.

Again, glad you're not in charge of Europe's security. 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

They do not understand relativism and worthship democracies without realizing that they are horrible and do not work for every country. 

I do agree democracy is better than dictatorship but there is something that is worse than dictatorship. That is civil war and anarchy, chaos. And that is EXACTLY what underdeveloped countries go through once you topple their dictators. Libya, Iraq being two examples. So for these countries, dictatorship is the highest good at the moment. In the future this will change of course. Everything at its time.

I see Iran for example tired of their dictatorship, hopefully it will be removed once their Leader dies.

I am not saying the West is perfect, nobody is. I also oppose any intervention into some foreign land, unless they do some really fucked shit like Isis for example. My bias is protecting people from barbarism. Not applying "geopolitical relativism" to discredit the West. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Azov doesn't hide amongst civilians, nor do they brutally rape and mutilate. They are damn good fighters as they held of hordes of Russians many times their number. They are reasonable actors,

"In 2016, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch received several credible allegations of abuse and torture by the regiment.[234] Reports published by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented looting of civilian homes and unlawful detention and torture of civilians between September 2014 and February 2015 "by Ukrainian armed forces and the Azov regiment in and around Shyrokyne".[235][236]

Another OHCHR report documented an instance of rape and torture, writing: "A man with a mental disability was subject to cruel treatment, rape and other forms of sexual violence by 8 to 10 members of the 'Azov' and the 'Donbas' battalions (both Ukrainian battalions) in August–September 2014. The victim's health subsequently deteriorated and he was hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital."[236] A report from January 2015 stated that a Donetsk Republic supporter was detained and tortured with electricity and waterboarding and struck repeatedly on his genitals, which resulted in his confessing to spying for pro-Russian militants.[236]: 20 ". 

Actually if you do a bit research they have indeed linked with torture and other messed up stuff so they are quite fucked up as a regiment.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

They exist to protect Ukrainian women and children and to ensure that future generations of Ukrainians don't have to live in some Russian shithole

Russia s GDP per capita is like 5 times larger than Ukraine before the war started so I think Ukraine is the shithole here  

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

How am I supposed to take this comment seriously? Well they cannot destroy Israel but they can on occasion rape, mutilate and kidnap a few hundred people

Compare that to the most powerful army in the world at your doorstep that can kill everyone in your country if they want to. You cannot compare them. Yes a few hundred people dead will not hurt Israel much. We are talking on a country level here. Comparing Hamas with NATO is like comparing an ant to a dragon. 

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It's true that both try to undermine democracy but on completely different levels and with completely different methods.

Putin does not decrease the level of democracy of Russia since Russia never had any to begin with. Meanwhile Israel did and their current PM actively tried to undermine it. Therefore relative to the level of democracy in their respective countries Benjamin is worse. 

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

It's an interesting question. How would Israel have reacted if it was the same level of development as Russia, led by Putin and not being allied with the West?

Probably same way Israel did. Both bomb without caring about civilians dead. If you think Israel actually cares about the civilians dead in Gaza you are very naive. They cannot even prove that X person here is Hamas, they just go by guessing from an intelligence service that could not spot an attack from miles away. It is not credible. When most of Gaza at this point is razed to the ground you cannot really say that Russia would do much more. If 90% of Gaza was not attacked then you could say "Russia would have razed it to the ground", however Israel also is doing that.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

But still Israel is way more "intellectually diverse" and developed than you might think. Jews and Arabs live together on day to day basis. Jews don't view them as evil and Arabs are to large degree contempt living or working in Israel. If you walk the streets in Israel you'll see enough Arabs. 

I am not saying that there are not decent non racist people in Israel. However their current government which are the ones that actually take decisions are quite racist and radical. I saw clips of deputies calling for "Gaza to be turned into Dresden" among other things. Also I have seen countless videos of people mocking Palestinians or even celebrating at the bombings so they have a lot of people that are radicalized unfortunately. Way way more than countries like France, UK etc.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Again, glad you're not in charge of Europe's security. 

If you find me some proof I will change my position.

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

My bias is protecting people from barbarism

My bias is civilians getting treated equally and not only getting love if they are from specific countries. No love for Iraq childreen. Endless love for Ukranian and Israeli childreen. Dying by bombs or by a sword is irrelevant.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Karmadhi