New War In Israel / Gaza

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Funny how Westerners think the Middle East is bad

No Wholefoods = bad

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

How could Israel as you see it to establish a state here in a different and more moral way?

It's too late for that at this point.

But at least stop plotting to take more land.

[Nivsch]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's too late for that at this point.

But at least stop plotting to take more land.

By the way isn't it the nature of every country establishment to occupy something?

Isn't it by definition?

Is there a really clean way to establish any country?

What if almost every country did similar things to what Israel did during its establishment because this is the nature of this thing?

Because if so, we have to admit the reason only Israel is tripled checked is something else that is much deeper than occupation and I dont know the answer. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

OK but practically is it really can work in the middle east to not be an ethnostate when the other ethnic groups are TOO far from your ethnic group values? The pressure gradient between the value systems is just too high to allow ourselves to be sucked into an arab majority nation that would be teocratic with no women and gays rights.

So practically maybe we have to be creative here and not to copy the europeen model to here but to create something new, that keeps the Jew majority but in the most moral way possible to the other nations in the country that will get autonomy and full civil and collective rights.

Enough with the gay and women rights

Your country may allow gays but they don't allow Gaza children to literally have LIFE

How dumb to think that women don't have rights in the rest of the Middle East. That lie can't continue to go on

We have modest and chill women who are happy with families. We don't have tattooed and pierced freaks, we don't have single mothers, we don't have 16 year olds that lose their virginity, we don't have have them sedated on wine and anti depression pills. What rights don't Arab women have? 

[Raze]

 

[Raze]

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Emerald OK but practically is it really can work in the middle east to not be an ethnostate when the other ethnic groups are TOO far from your ethnic group values? The pressure gradient between the value systems is just too high to allow ourselves to be sucked into an arab majority nation that would be teocratic with no women and gays rights.

So practically maybe we have to be creative here and not to copy the europeen model to here but to create something new, that keeps the Jew majority but in the most moral way possible to the other nations in the country that will get autonomy and full civil and collective rights.

Over a decade ago Hamas offered a long term ceasefire in exchange for a two state solution based on 1967 borders and Israel disagreed. Israel would rather risk its own safety to hurt Palestinians.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

we don't have 16 year olds that lose their virginity

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Thats horrible. But since when is Afghanistan the Middle East?

Plus isn't that a war torn country for like decades now? Didn't it just get taken over by some rouge group? It said that the family was in poverty so that's why they sold their child 

I can assure you. This is unthinkable in other parts of the Arabs world. A mother would stab everyone to death before allowing this to happen. And you don't want to know what the father would do

Actually the marriages here are very secure. The husband has to prove himself in many ways to the woman's family and to the woman. And vice versa. Divorces are allowed but not encouraged just frowned upon. The craziest thing about women's rights here is that a man can have multiple wives and that's only allowed under super special conditions and is actually quite rare. Plus what man doesn't want multiple wives haha

No region in the world can compete with the family units in the Middle East. They are untouchable fortresses. Closest thing to royalty you can find 

[Twentyfirst]

 

[Twentyfirst]

By 16 year olds that lose their virginity I mean the everyday culture. In The West students will make fun of girls in high school for NOT losing their virginity/giving up their purity. By 21 they already have a crazy body count and have been emotionally hammered. It's so normalized that people don't really know how deep the effects go 

[Raze]

 

[Twentyfirst]

Another example. There are many women in the west who have body image issues and literally cut themselves open with knives to self harm and make themselves feel better. And its so normal that people think this happens everywhere else in the world

Trust me it does not happen everywhere else. Sad stuff 

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Jews have a country and it is not going away. So that's not really at issue. The only issue now is how to create peace.

I am not saying Israel needs to be abolished. That's completely unworkable at this point. But, for example, Israel could pay money to Palestinians for the land they took. This might help to smooth tensions. The best way to create peace is to invest into the development of Palestine so they have some hope aside from terrorism. At this point they got nothing to live for but to hunt your children.

Well, I think that's the fundamental flaw in your perspective. Your approach is overly fixated on achieving peace, which is deeply rooted in attempting to 'solve' the issue. Sometimes achieving peace is simply not a reasonable possibility in any realistic assessment of the foreseeable future.

It seems that You assume that actions stem purely from conditions and I think this assumption is also flawed. I find that perspective somewhat naive. In fact, regarding the Palestinians it's quite the opposite. Every time there's an improvement in the Palestinians' condition, there's a violent setback. The notion that people act the way the Palestinian do solely due to conditions is untrue. Sometimes toxic ideologies persist even when conditions improve. 

The suggestion involving money won't suffice. Just consider how much Israel has paid over the years to the Palestinian Authority and Gaza, and how much Europe, the US, and other Arab countries have spent on them. These are enormous amounts of money. Money won't get to the root of the issue. The core problem lies in education and the values of the society. Their society is fixated on an unachievable concept of justice and twisted honor values that make it impossible for them to accept any compromise. No indication suggests that those have slightly changed in any way over the past 100 years and I don't think that any amount of money can achieve that.

I believe the mindset you are suggesting Israel adopt is the same mindset that led to a 7/10 situation. Essentially, you propose that if the Palestinians had better conditions, they would not seek war. In a sense, this was Israel's strategy toward Gaza in the past 3 years — allowing more money in, enabling more Palestinians from Gaza to work in Israel, providing medical treatment in Israeli hospitals, etc. Before 7/10, Israelis genuinely thought they could make Hamas more moderate through these measures and prevent war. This approach failed miserably. It represents a significant misunderstanding of different mentalities. Essentially, it is rooted in the belief that everyone is the same in the sense that they want what you want, because we are all human. Yes, we are. So was Hitler. But you couldn't make the situation with Hitler better by improving Germany conditions.

On a broader scale, it appears that you believe that if Israelis were to do 'the right' thing, they have the power to develop the Palestinians to a level where they will not desire war. I don't think you are right here. Some changes cannot come from the outside. The Palestinians first need to desire change. This is not a simple condition. Sometimes, it is when conditions become worse that this desire becomes real.

And just to remind us - we are discussing an ongoing war. And when a man is coming to you with a gun, aiming at you, shouting he is going to kill you - you first kill him. Then you can examine to see if he had a difficult childhood. Your suggestions are essentially irrelevant to the reality of war. You also don't address the regional situation and address Israel's approach solely considering the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

Edited November 29, 2023 by DawnC

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, DawnC said:

And when a man is coming to you with a gun, aiming at you, shouting he is going to kill you - you first kill him. Then you can examine to see if he had a difficult childhood.

Improper analogy.

The situation is more like this: You keep stealing eggs from your neighbor until he gets so pissed off he comes at you with a gun. After you kill him, you keep stealing more of his family's eggs. Then you do a surprised Pikachu face when his brothers come at you with guns.

The egg-stealing plays an important role in all this so it must be examined.

This is not a matter of dealing with a lone psychopath. This is a complex geopolitical collective justice issue.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Improper analogy.

The situation is more like this: You keep stealing eggs from your neighbor until he gets so pissed off he comes at with a gun. After you kill him, you keep stealing more of his family's eggs. Then you do surprise Pikachu face when his brothers come at you with guns. The egg-stealing plays an important role in all this, so it must be examined.

Valid.

But I think it is also important to add that the neighbor is problematic and sadist in his behaviour to his chickens to begin with, even before the stealing has started.

And just to stop the stealing is necessariy but there is a deeper healing process this man has the responsibility to go through by himself.

Thats now a whole complex therapy process in the collective scale required a super flexible and holistic attitude we cannot grasp it all yet.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

"We need to educate Palestinians not to hate Israelis"

First off Israelis are also taught at a young age that Palestinians want them dead and they want to steal so called Israels land and they need to be eliminated before that happens. Why would Palestinians who are forgotten internationally let ANYONE else educate their own people. Thats not even okay for internationally accepted countries. Every 5 year old knows exactly what the British did, America does, and Israel does. They know the truth 

Secondly whats going on now is only gonna increase Hamas participants by 1000x which is another logical fallacy of this current invasion but no matter how much we say killing civilians is only gonna make Hamas stronger you somehow still think that you can defeat Hamas by violence. Idiots 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Twentyfirst

[Nivsch]

25 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

First off Israelis are also taught at a young age that Palestinians want them dead and they want to steal so called Israels land and they need to be eliminated before that happens

No. I have not learned that in school at all. Only that we have enemy countries I hope this is OK to learn in elementary school.

And that they have to be eliminated? Come on seems you just invent fake symmetry from your mind.

I have never learned we have to eliminate anyone. Be surprised.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

No. I have not learned that in school at all. Only that we have enemy countries I hope this is OK to learn.

Doubt it. All you say is "no thats not accurate of how Israel actually is" when theres a lot of evidence that it is how Israel actually is

What should the father and older brother tell the younger son/brother about their neighbors after 75 years of bloodshed? "Here's five bucks go get some ice cream with that little Jew boy"

THEY HATE YOU DUHHHHHH

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Improper analogy.

The situation is more like this: You keep stealing eggs from your neighbor until he gets so pissed off he comes at with a gun. After you kill him, you keep stealing more of his family's eggs. Then you do surprise Pikachu face when his brothers come at you with guns. The egg-stealing plays an important role in all this, so it must be examined.

You are right in the sense that this analogy overlooks the routes of the conflict and the original valid claim of Palestinians. 

I find it somewhat childish and inaccurate to blame the Jews for going to Israel and view it as an act of stealing and I'm not convinced about your implied argument regarding repetitiveness. But even if we won't agree on that, you have to agree that they can't stop stealing eggs they have already eaten . I believe that what has happened in the 100 years since this conflict started tells us more about it than its origins. 

And regarding Pickachu - personally I don't find it surprising at all. If you understand the initial situation of this conflict and you understand the pattern of the Palestinians irresponsibility, the violence is not surprising. This is in sense what I was trying to say. When someone is fixates on getting eaten eggs, particularly if they are the weaker party and insist on holding a gun, war and suffering are inevitable. I simply don't harbor false beliefs in the power of Israelis where I don't think they have the ability to change things. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by DawnC

[Jodistrict]

Hamas published footage of the release of the israeli & thai hostages.     The Hamas hosts and some of the hostages warmly embrace each other before parting.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Jodistrict