New War In Israel / Gaza

[Schizophonia]

2 minutes ago, Sincerity said:

Since we are on a self-improvement forum, it would be great if the people here who consistently support Israel tried to see the situation from the Hamas/Palestinian perspective, and vice versa.

Remember guys, your alliegience to your team is "only" due to your culture, upbringing, life experiences, etc... This is what forms your perspective, but consider that You would have a vastly different view if your circumstances were different.

You are not this accumulated web of beliefs and biases. You are God. Imagine this: currently You are biased against Israel/Palestine, but next life You incarnate on the other team and shit on the beliefs You hold right now. Do You see how stupid this is? Rise above it. (The reincarnation talk & assumption of objective shared reality is purely for the thought experiment.)

Try to see all of this more holistically. For your own sake. When You argue reinforcing your own biases, You are going deeper and deeper into this web of beliefs of yours, further deceiving yourself and disconnecting from the truth. Make sure You don't deceive yourselves so much You are lost. It'd be a shame.

This problem disappears when we limit ourselves to following our interests.
Here we might just be right.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But how this is ever going to change if they are being controled by a clever virus

But that virus is fueled by Israeli violence, domination, and theft.

The problem is that Israelis refuse to admit that they engage in theft. Which means forgiveness cannot come.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Your top boy says: Children of light vs children of darkness.

Thats a completely reasonable thing to say after all that was done in the attack. Yes, you can call a sadistic rapist a human animal, no need to be politically correct here or be mindful of their correct pronouns, maybe Ahmed the rapist is a they/them. At the end of the day Jewish culture is more enlightened and makes for more functional societies. 

You seem to equate the far right with the whole of Israel. Just look at the fucking people that were attacked and kidnapped, they were mostly liberal, left-leaning. there were scores of peace activists among them. 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If you are asking this question you clearly don't appreicate how seriously Jews take their relgion.

If Jews were purely rational then we'd be dealing with a very different creature.

We're dealing with a very Stage Blue culture there.

Israel was established by secular people who loved science and progress. The reason for Israel's existence is extremely rational, you know because of what happened in the 20th century and before. The Bible stories are the cherry on top. 

Also the whole thing of "chosen" people, I literally never heard any Jew claim that. religious believe Jews were chosen to study Torah, thats it. It has nothing to do with superiority. Of course, extremely conservative insular people do exist but they are the exception.

You definitely underestimate how reasonable and "modern" the general Israeli public is. Just look at those mass protests against Netanyahu before the war.  

[Schizophonia]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't argue, I contemplate and my understanding deepens.

There is no universally "higher" goal and therefore hobby in life, What's the problem with talking about politics with randoms online?

And the "make sure[...]" part is just ego, only the present and future time is important.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Thats a completely reasonable thing to say after all that was done in the attack.

By that logic it is completely reasonable for Palestians to say Jews are evil for taking their land.

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You seaem to equate the far right with the whole of Israel.

Religious nationalists run the Israel government.

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Israel was established by secular people who loved science and progress.

That's not the ideology which runs the government and motivates the expansion of land and desire to squeeze out all Palestinians from the region.

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The reason for Israel's existe nce is extremely rational, you know because of what happened in the 20th century and before. The Bible stories are the cherry on top.

Does not excuse taking land which belonged to other people.

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Also the whole thing of "chosen" people, I literally never heard any Jew claim that.

Whether they claim it or not is irrelevant. The governing polticians of Israel believe it in their bones and that's what motivates their grand geopolitical strategy.

And the fact is that Israeli politicans have tweeted far worse things than "we are the chosen people". Their tweets demonstrate their self-bias. So there's nothing really to argue here. Everyone with an ounce of neutrality can see that Israeli politicians are self-biased to the extreme, and no amount of Hamas devliry can excuse that fact.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But that virus is fueled by Israeli violence, domination, and theft.

The problem is that Israelis refuse to admit that they engage in theft. Which means forgiveness cannot come.

But this radical ideology was here in the 1930's with Amin Al husseini. Before Israel.

I can agree Israel makes the virus worse, but not that it created it.

About the violence and domimation if you mean to the settlements I agree this is a problem and Israel has to fix it, it does has responsibility yes, but this is secondary and not the root.

The root is found within the palestinians society itself in my opinion.

How can we explain 11.9? The terror in europe?

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

How can we expalin the 11.9? The terror in europe?

Read Bin Laden's letter. He tells you in plain words.

[Vrubel]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I absolutely agree, usually I almost never do this but 7/10 compelled me to stand up for Israel. I am tired of all the nastiness. I can definitely see how the Israelis on this thread are more informed and reasonable than the bulk. Also, I have a little fever now and a little arguing gives me the right energy haha. 

[Vrubel]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Does not excuse taking land which belonged to other people.

It's not about excusing anything. Israel had to be established because of the most unnegotiable stark reasons imaginable. The Jewish people needed an army. Period. 

Yes, in the process it brought with it the Palestinian issue which is the tragedy of history and definitely needs resolving. 

 

[Nivsch]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Whether they claim it or not is irrelevant. The governing polticians of Israel believe it in their bones. That's what nationalism is.

But there is one thing that is healthy and necessary in this nationalism in this tough region.

In this area, and I emphasize in THIS area, losing the Jew majority is a very dangerous thing to our values and character of the country that otherwise will be turned into another arab tyranni.

So there is a valid reason to this nationalism as a healthy blue to protect our western values and democracy.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israel had to be established because of the most unnegotiable stark reasons imaginable. The Jewish people needed an army. Period. 

That's like saying, I was homeless and hungry so I had to break into your house and raid your fridge.

Jews live just fine in many countries without their own army.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But there is one thing that is healthy and necessary in this nationalism in this tough region.

Well then, if you insist on deep self-bias as a governing strategy then don't be surprised by the karma it brings.

The reason I point out bias is because if it is not fixed it will continue to bring bad karma upon you.

If you are okay with bad karma then keep operating in a biased way.

The crux of this whole issue is that Israelis create bad karma with their self-bias but then get offended and outraged when outsiders point this out to them. This offendedness is a defense mechanism from addressing the self-bias.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Buck Edwards]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't argue, I contemplate and my understanding deepens.

Arguing gives you intellectual fodder to contemplate on. All argument is not bad. It generates interesting perspectives you get to hear and ponder on from the other side. It's like a zeitgeist of intellectualism and that's what I enjoy about it is that it fires my neurons to think multilateral and multilayered. 

[Nivsch]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well then, if you insist on deep self-bias as a governing strategy then don't be surprised by the karma it brings.

The reason I point out bias is because if it is not fixed it will continue to bring bad karma upon you.

If you are okay with bad karma then keep operating in a biased way.

I'm talking on the Jew majority that have to be preserved. Not about the actions that need a change and to be more fair.

I agree that practically the actions of the government have to improve with the problematic settlements issue, but again I mean that we must keep the Jew majority (and in a moral way of course. not to harm anyone).

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

but again we must keep the Jew majority

Go for it.

But notice, that's pretty racist and biased and will have undesirable long-term consequences.

My only point is that bias creates conflict. If you are interested in ending conflict then you should seriously look into self-bias.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Go for it.

But notice, that's pretty racist and biased and will have undesirable long-term consequences.

But again, without Jew majority our democracy and values will collapse and we will turn into another arab country.

[Buck Edwards]

@Leo Gura arguing increases my IQ points by at least a fraction of 2 vis-à-vis socializing with shallow people. 

[Vrubel]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's like saying, I was homeless and hungry so I had to break into your house and raid your fridge.

Oh come on, life is not exactly a flowery meadow with the sunshine always shining. I am not going to apologize for Israel existing. Neither will the Jews saved from prosecution or being at the mercy of other often barbaric peoples. At the end of the day, Israel is a developed society with strong institutions. It needs to strike some things out like many other countries. 

 

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, Nivsch said:

But again, without Jew majority our democracy and values will collapse and we will turn into another arab country.

Can this be chalked up to paranoia? 

[Nivsch]

Just now, Buck Edwards said:

Can this be chalked up to paranoia? 

No. The arab countries are red blue. 

Israel is blue orange green similar to US average.

You are underestimate the danger here.