New War In Israel / Gaza

[lina]

 

As mentioned in this video, Major General Giora Eiland, former head of the National Security Council and current advisor to the Defense Minister wrote a genocidal piece that was retweeted by Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich. It's written here: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/

 

"Israel must, therefore, not provide the other side with any capability that prolongs its life. Moreover, we tell ourselves that Sinwar is so evil that he does not care if all the residents of Gaza die. Such a presentation is inaccurate since who are the “poor” women of Gaza? They are all the mothers, sisters, or wives of Hamas murderers. On the one hand, they are part of the infrastructure that supports the organization, and on the other hand, if they experience a humanitarian disaster, then it can be assumed that some of the Hamas fighters and the more junior commanders will begin to understand that the war is futile and that it is better to prevent irreversible harm to their families." 

 

"The way to win the war faster and at a lower cost for us requires a system collapse on the other side and not the mere killing of more Hamas fighters. The international community warns us of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza and of severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this, as difficult as that may be. After all, severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer and reduce casualties among IDF soldiers"

 

Other Israeli officials try to present their intentions in a more diplomatic and less devilish way but what matters is actions. Words mean nothing when the current situation in Gaza is as horrific as witnessed by people who actually follow in-ground Palestinian media. 

[Twentyfirst]

@zazen Yes todays actions will create Hamas 2.0 and yesterdays actions created Hamas

That's why "do you condemn Hamas" is another way of saying "do you condemn Israel for creating Hamas"

Very simple stuff. Cant fix stupid 

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, lina said:

That's the truth, and then you find people justify this because people in the middle east are not "developed" or "score high enough" in the spiral dynamics so they deserve to be oppressed, if anything it's because of the west's actions that are keeping the middle east in this loop. 

 

Because those people live and breathe under the protection of such glorious nations.  Betchya @zazen has a very comfortable home nestled within the boundaries of such nation.

It's easy to talk from the sidelines. Not so easy to play. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Karmadhi]

11 hours ago, Lila9 said:

you compare Arabs in Israel to Jews in a concentration camp.

I compare the Arabs in West Bank and Gaza. I compare it when a kid gets shot because he threw stones at a tank. I compare it with kids in West Bank spending their night in cages outside in cold temperatures and getting months in Israeli prisons without a proper trial. I compare it with people in Gaza that do not have any rights to leave or get in unless Israel wants them to. I compare it with Palestinian people having their skin and organs harvested by Israel authorities without their consent  when they are dead.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

5 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Because those people live and survive under the protection of such glorious nations.  Betchya @zazen has a very comfortable home nestled within the boundaries of such nation.

It's easy to talk from the sidelines. Not so easy to play. 

Israel doesn't allow Palestinians a nation to be protected under in the first place. 

When you're in the play your emotions can consume you to the point actions are taken that aren't even in your best interest. A lot of the time, it takes a dispassionate look at the situation to come up with the most compassionate solution to it. 

It's in Israels own interest to not do what its doing now. Israels image and support worldwide has taken a huge hit, the economy will suffer including tourism and the potential for actual anti-semitism has never been higher. Hamas will only gain more recruits and come back again. Even Israels own allies and media supporters aren't able to be as biased in Israels favor due to social media exposing it. 

Some of us may be watching from the side line but we won't be clapping and cheering at the death or destruction we see unlike Israeli settlers at Sderot cinema:

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by zazen

[Raze]

 

[Lila9]

14 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Lila9 But they will keep saying "occupation" every 3 hours just because their agenda is anti Israel to begin with no matter what, exactly at the same way they choose to focus only on Gaza's children when they forget that up until now those children have been captives of a cult and now they get a chance to heal, but on that, of course, they won't talk.

Luckily Israel's existence doesn't depend on people who don't even know where Israel is on the map or discovered this only a month ago 😊

If Israel's existence was dependent on their opinions, shallow understanding and empty definitions like 'occupation', Israel would've existed.

There is Israel, and there will be Israel despite their evil wishes, they can be angry and sad as much as they want. It's their luck that they live in safety and no one is threatening their lives and people don't blame them while they are trying to defend themselves. I wish they had the wisdom to appreciate it.

[Lila9]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I compare the Arabs in West Bank and Gaza. I compare it when a kid gets shot because he threw stones at a tank. I compare it with kids in West Bank spending their night in cages outside in cold temperatures and getting months in Israeli prisons without a proper trial. I compare it with people in Gaza that do not have any rights to leave or get in unless Israel wants them to. I compare it with Palestinian people having their skin and organs harvested by Israel authorities without their consent  when they are dead.

If there is such a torture, why the population not decreasing but only growing with the years? Why there is no normal education to be a civilizied human being instead of being radical antisemitic Islamist depsite all the money poured to there?

Gaza isn't occupied by Israel for 20 years why it's still stuck regardless the enomourous financial support it receives from the world and Israel?

Why Palestinians resist the two state solution, peace with Israel?

 

 

 

[hundreth]

47 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

If there is such a torture, why the population not decreasing but only growing with the years? Why there is no normal education to be a civilizied human being instead of being radical antisemitic Islamist depsite all the money poured to there?

Gaza isn't occupied by Israel for 20 years why it's still stuck regardless the enomourous financial support it receives from the world and Israel?

Why Palestinians resist the two state solution, peace with Israel?

There are many valid criticisms of Israel.

Unfortunately, you'll never see Israel's critics ever assign any accountability or agency to the Palestinian people. That's why they're essentially ignored.

They'll sit there arguing with you about how "from the river to the sea" is not ONLY a genocidal slogan, but some minority of people don't mean it that way but use it as a dog whistle to appeal to the antisemitic masses. None of them think to themselves, why am I defending a phrase used with genocidal intentions AT ALL? Why not urge them to adopt a new slogan without all of the historical baggage? They would never use this logic in favor of Israelis.

Could the Palestinians make any other choices? Of course not, EVERYTHING is Israel's fault. It makes it essentially impossible to have a constructive conversation with them. 

[zazen]

@hundreth @Lila9 Of course not everything is Israels fault, but a lot is. How do economies grow? Basic business is trading goods and services. Does Gaza have this right to create goods and services to be provided across its border and back? A key part of motivating people to work is a return on that work.

What can they do with this money they earn, can they travel and see the world and have holidays? Can they shop and buy from a buffet of online shopping and have it come across the border? What incentive do they have to work if they won't be able to do anything with the money, none of their dreams can even have the chance of becoming fulfilled. Even if they have the skills, those skills are capped and limited by the materials they are provided - which are limited by the blockade.

The first thing they must do is break free of their situation. Have they tried the avenues of protest, yes the march of return in 2018 which failed. Has the international community tried economically pressuring Israel, yes through the BDS boycott movement which is being shut down with anti-boycott laws, 2 state solution is just a pipe dream carrot dangled in front of Palestinians all the while settlements keep expanding in what would be there state which would make it impossible for them to remove (especially settlers as they are the far right orthodox kind). So what are they left to do? 

And then the Gazans are visited every few years periodically by the IDF for 'mowing of the lawn' or 'cutting the grass' to slowly weaken them and their morale. Death by a thousand cuts to pass under the radar of the international community. In today's world you can't just wipe out a mass of people without being sanctioned, condemned or starting all out war.

 The population has grown despite their conditions and hardships - not because Israel is benevolent to them and allows them to live well with good intent. Just think, 10'000 people dead and the whole world has protested against Israel, diplomatic ties being cut, Israel's own allies even speaking against Israels actions. Imagine if it was 50'000 or 100'000 dead, that is suicidal for Israel politically, economically and existentially. That's why they don't just go wipe them off in one go, but in a slow manner by making the conditions unlivable or hoping the expel themselves into Egypt/Jordan.

''The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. —Likud Party Platform, 1977''

When likud party members share this sentiment and have it in their founding document (from the river to the sea) their not speaking genocidally and only about geographic sovereignty but when the Palestinians who are actually oppressed and occupied use it they can only be referring to genocide and not their own emancipation, freedom and dignity to exist?

 

The word 'occupation' is like a salt to a wound to those who can't seem to stomach a 'developed' country in the 21st century capable of such a thing. Leaving a place but controlling most aspects of it isn’t leaving. Occupying doesn't necessarily mean I'm sitting on your lap taking up all your personal space.  If I left your house but controlled your ability to come and go, what was delivered to it, could access your internet and telephone lines and won’t even let you into your garden (for them they can’t use their own sea properly to fish and feed themselves) - that isn’t leaving them alone, its occupying from a distance.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-destroying-gaza-s-fishing-sector

 Gaza and the West Bank are literally called occupied territories by:

The British government- https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/the-occupied-palestinian-territories

The European council on foreign relations - https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/opt/

The US - https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/

Wiki - The Palestinian territories are the two regions of the former British Mandate for Palestine that have been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, namely the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has referred to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as "the Occupied Palestinian Territory"

Edited November 22, 2023 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

@hundreth @Lila9 Of course not everything is Israels fault, but a lot is. How do economies grow? Basic business is trading goods and services. Does Gaza have this right to create goods and services to be provided across its border and back? A key part of motivating people to work is a return on that work. What can they do with this money they earn, can they travel and see the world and have holidays? Can they shop and buy from a buffet of online shopping and have it come across the border? What incentive do they have to work if they won't be able to do anything with the money, none of their dreams can even have the chance of becoming fulfilled.

The first thing they must do is break free of their situation. Have they tried the avenues of protest, yes the march of return in 2018 which failed. Has the international community tried economically pressuring Israel, yes through the BDS boycott movement which is being shut down with anti-boycott laws, 2 state solution is just a pipe dream carrot dangled in front of Palestinians all the while settlements keep expanding in what would be there state which would make it impossible for them to remove (especially settlers as they are the far right orthodox kind). So what are they left to do? 

And then the Gazans are visited every few years periodically by the IDF for 'mowing of the lawn' or 'cutting the grass' to slowly weaken them and their morale. Death by a thousand cuts to pass under the radar of the international community. In today's world you can't just wipe out a mass of people without being sanctioned or condemned. The population has grown despite their conditions and hardships - not because Israel is benevolent to them and allows to live well with good intent. Just think, 10'000 people dead and the whole world has protested against Israel, diplomatic ties being cut, Israel's own allies even speaking against Israels actions. Imagine if it was 50'000 or 100'000 dead, that is suicidal for Israels politically, economically and existentially. That's why they don't just go wipe them off in one go, but in a slow manner by making the conditions unlivable. 

''The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. —Likud Party Platform, 1977''

When likud party members share this sentiment and have it in their founding document (from the river to the sea) their not speaking genocidally and only about geographic sovereignty but when the Palestinians who are actually oppressed and occupied use it they can only be referring to genocide and not their own emancipation, freedom and dignity to exist.

   After this whole conflict between HAMAs and Israel gets resolved, one way or another, I find it inevitable that Palestine and Palestinians will get swallowed up and assimilated by Israel, or migrate to other regions and other countries, one way or another. Maybe that scenario in the future is most peaceful, and in a twisted way, this is the best revenge for Palestinians, they just leave and let Israel take over the west bank and Gaza, let them have that barren land they call the promised lands, while Palestinians have left to better places with better living conditions. Let them have the harsh deserted place, and life in some 3rd world or 1st world democratic country, even the poorer locations of the 1st world democracy are better than the west bank and Gaza living conditions. Think about it, what's so holy about a baron to the bone land? What group is crazy enough to desperately want dry desert that's hard to design on? Palestinians living in Gaza are living in hell, similar with the west bank, they should leave. Israel is good at cyber stuff, Israel good at this or good at that, bunch of egoic self deception. Let them have those lands and let them dig themselves into this savage sunk cost fallacy they put themselves in. There's something wrong about this land war, that somehow both sides, one Zionist and much more obsessed than the other side, are obsessed with trying to land grab and occupy. I'd say let Israel take all of west bank and Gaza, let themselves burry into this holy land BS, and Palestine migrate to greener pastures. Let them eat themselves to death with this dogmatic ideology until they grow up.

   If the USA wants to really support, they should either nation build or facilitate this migration for Palestinians. This holy land is more like a Venus fly trap, attracting people in it to eat them slowly, making them full of selfish pride and eat them.

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

10 hours ago, zazen said:

Politics and power can tend to draw the worst of society to it and draw out the worst aspects of otherwise good people once they occupy powerful political positions. People need to de-personalize critique of the political entities that run their countries. For example when we critique Israel's actions it is taken as a personalized attack on the Israeli people. 

 

Caitlin Johnstone wrote on the above video now going viral:

''That such a horrible person could climb his way to the highest echelons of the world’s most powerful government — working on Palestinian affairs no less — illustrates an important point about the US empire and what it is. There are no barriers stopping such creatures from rising to the top of that power structure, just the opposite in fact — they get an express lane to the top. That’s why bloodthirsty swamp monsters like John Bolton, Lindsey Graham, Victoria Nuland and Elliott Abrams find themselves so intimately involved with US policymaking.

That’s the true face of the US empire, right there. That’s the empire at its most honest. Not dressed up in affable charm and slick PR work, but sneering and hurling racist invective at immigrants who are just trying to do their jobs in peace. Not performing carefully rehearsed faces of compassion for the Palestinians who are being “tragically” and “unintentionally” killed as “collateral damage” in Israel’s war of “defense” against Hamas, but staring right into the camera and saying “If we killed 4,000 Palestinian kids, you know what? It wasn’t enough.”

It’s only when you see clearly that Israel is just an arm of the same empire that’s been murdering people by the millions around the world with nonstop invasions, bombing campaigns, proxy conflicts, starvation sanctions and CIA coups that you understand that, yes, Israel really is exactly as evil as it appears to be, and its behavior in Gaza is exactly what it looks like.

The US empire backs Israel for the same reason it backs most of the world’s dictatorships: because a globe-spanning empire can only be held together by nonstop violence and tyranny. Israel and other US-aligned states in the middle east are like the chair and the whip of a lion tamer — weapons used to violently abuse the populations of a crucial geostrategic region into compliance. It suits the empire perfectly to have a nuclear-armed government which exists in a constant state of war in the middle east governed by officials who speak English with American accents and interests which are reliably in alignment with those of the United States.''

 

   Well said. There is some nuances here and there that need elaboration, but it's mostly right, that's American hegemony and neoliberalism at work, and the excess of stage orange capitalism. The higher one climbs the hierarchy, mostly in business or structures that confer power, the grater the psychopathy, sociopathy, narcissism, higher neurotic and transactional relationship orientated you become. The problem is that nobody sees capitalism and neoliberalism as ideologies, because they work so well and are so efficient and convenient they are mass hallucinated as real and material, as self evident, via information ecology and information intake and information pumped via news, social media, schooling, TV programs, radio, social gatherings, and other points. Also, due to differences in values systems, cognitive and moral development, personality types, ego development, shadow selves of the ego, life experiences and other lines of development in life and societal domains, and ideological beliefs indoctrinated into the masses, it easy to manufacture consent through propaganda, narrative control, and misinformation.

[hundreth]

42 minutes ago, zazen said:

@hundreth @Lila9 Of course not everything is Israels fault, but a lot is. How do economies grow? Basic business is trading goods and services. Does Gaza have this right to create goods and services to be provided across its border and back? A key part of motivating people to work is a return on that work.

What can they do with this money they earn, can they travel and see the world and have holidays? Can they shop and buy from a buffet of online shopping and have it come across the border? What incentive do they have to work if they won't be able to do anything with the money, none of their dreams can even have the chance of becoming fulfilled. Even if they have the skills, those skills are capped and limited by the materials they are provided - which are limited by the blockade.

The first thing they must do is break free of their situation. Have they tried the avenues of protest, yes the march of return in 2018 which failed. Has the international community tried economically pressuring Israel, yes through the BDS boycott movement which is being shut down with anti-boycott laws, 2 state solution is just a pipe dream carrot dangled in front of Palestinians all the while settlements keep expanding in what would be there state which would make it impossible for them to remove (especially settlers as they are the far right orthodox kind). So what are they left to do? 

And then the Gazans are visited every few years periodically by the IDF for 'mowing of the lawn' or 'cutting the grass' to slowly weaken them and their morale. Death by a thousand cuts to pass under the radar of the international community. In today's world you can't just wipe out a mass of people without being sanctioned, condemned or starting all out war.

 The population has grown despite their conditions and hardships - not because Israel is benevolent to them and allows them to live well with good intent. Just think, 10'000 people dead and the whole world has protested against Israel, diplomatic ties being cut, Israel's own allies even speaking against Israels actions. Imagine if it was 50'000 or 100'000 dead, that is suicidal for Israel politically, economically and existentially. That's why they don't just go wipe them off in one go, but in a slow manner by making the conditions unlivable or hoping the expel themselves into Egypt/Jordan.

''The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. —Likud Party Platform, 1977''

When likud party members share this sentiment and have it in their founding document (from the river to the sea) their not speaking genocidally and only about geographic sovereignty but when the Palestinians who are actually oppressed and occupied use it they can only be referring to genocide and not their own emancipation, freedom and dignity to exist?

 

The word 'occupation' is like a salt to a wound to those who can't seem to stomach a 'developed' country in the 21st century capable of such a thing. Leaving a place but controlling most aspects of it isn’t leaving. Occupying doesn't necessarily mean I'm sitting on your lap taking up all your personal space.  If I left your house but controlled your ability to come and go, what was delivered to it, could access your internet and telephone lines and won’t even let you into your garden (for them they can’t use their own sea properly to fish and feed themselves) - that isn’t leaving them alone, its occupying from a distance.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-destroying-gaza-s-fishing-sector

 Gaza and the West Bank are literally called occupied territories by:

The British government- https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/the-occupied-palestinian-territories

The European council on foreign relations - https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/opt/

The US - https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/

Wiki - The Palestinian territories are the two regions of the former British Mandate for Palestine that have been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, namely the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has referred to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as "the Occupied Palestinian Territory"

Your response to me pointing out that Palestinians have no control or agency is to write an entire essay criticizing Israel with repeated talking points.

Why do these strict border controls exist? Because Gazans use every available vulnerability to attack and kill Jews when they're open. You can pretend that's not the case, but it is. When there's periods of peace, these restrictions are slowly lifted, as more work permits were handed to Gazans directly preceding the Oct 7th attack. 

Yes, the Palestinians attempted a march of return which you broad strokes paint as a "peaceful" protest. In reality it was a gray area, where some protesters were combatant. The march of return is also one instance in a 70 year conflict that now anti-Israel voices use to justify Hamas' violence. Oh, they tried a peaceful protest and look what happened, so Hamas has no choice but to kill Jews. 

How about trying extended peace? By peace I mean, not attempting attacks on Israel. This isn't that complicated. Trust would be established, and all the conditions you complain about would be improved. You may not like that Israel is the one controlling to what extent that happens, but this is how it is. 

Also, most of what you said re: economics are just excuses. When you're focused on positive outcomes, economic possibilities are always there. Jews have been in situations where they were at huge economic disadvantages for centuries. They always find a way. If the tables were turned, Jews would have turned Gaza into Singapore with all the foreign aid money and opportunities they've had. 

But again, Palestinians have no agency or control in your world view. There's no possible way for them to better their situation, it all falls on Israelis.

 

[Raze]

 

[zazen]

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

Your response to me pointing out that Palestinians have no control or agency is to write an entire essay criticizing Israel with repeated talking points.

Why do these strict border controls exist? Because Gazans use every available vulnerability to attack and kill Jews when they're open. You can pretend that's not the case, but it is. When there's periods of peace, these restrictions are slowly lifted, as more work permits were handed to Gazans directly preceding the Oct 7th attack. 

Yes, the Palestinians attempted a march of return which you broad strokes paint as a "peaceful" protest. In reality it was a gray area, where some protesters were combatant. The march of return is also one instance in a 70 year conflict that now anti-Israel voices use to justify Hamas' violence. Oh, they tried a peaceful protest and look what happened, so Hamas has no choice but to kill Jews. 

How about trying extended peace? By peace I mean, not attempting attacks on Israel. This isn't that complicated. Trust would be established, and all the conditions you complain about would be improved. You may not like that Israel is the one controlling to what extent that happens, but this is how it is. 

Also, most of what you said re: economics are just excuses. When you're focused on positive outcomes, economic possibilities are always there. Jews have been in situations where they were at huge economic disadvantages for centuries. They always find a way. If the tables were turned, Jews would have turned Gaza into Singapore with all the foreign aid money and opportunities they've had. 

But again, Palestinians have no agency or control in your world view. There's no possible way for them to better their situation, it all falls on Israelis.

 

You end your comment by sarcastically saying it all falls on Israelis when I literally started my comment by saying of course not everything is Israels fault, just that a lot is. Palestinians do have their flaws and faults, especially Hamas. Taking responsibility is great, but its delusional to take responsibility to such a degree as to not stop a outside agent making your life harder than it has to be and making you play life on hard mode.

Not every one's a self help alpha entrepreneur with a hustler mentality or like Andrew Tate who assumes everything is his fault and he'll be the one to fix it lol. For some outlier men that fire under their ass motivates them but for a lot they crumble - especially a society at scale.

Sure the Jews may have made a Singapore, they have done remarkably well wherever they've gone and good for them. But that's not the point - that's just pure whataboutism. Having superior capabilities doesn't entitle one group to another groups subjugation - that's a colonial mindset if that is what you inferred. 

Yes, they erected borders due to what you call attacks but was for them defensive resistance. The audacity lies in considering it acceptable for one group to take the land of another, with whom they lived mostly well for centuries, and were even protected by from European pogroms and persecution. To then engage in negotiations regarding the land they seized from that group, determining how much they will claim and then gaslighting any resistance as barbaric savage terrorism and making them feel guilty for the sins of the Holocaust which weren't theirs to begin with. They are then further gaslighted and labeled anti-Semitic for this when they themselves are semites.

How dare they resist, the Palestinians should just be peaceful in their blockaded strip of land where they were once given a controlled amount of calories called starvation+ as to be fed just enough to not die but not in excess as to be strong to resist. And the other Palestinians in West Bank should be at peace with the encroachment of their land via settlement expansion.

They should be at peace with their subjugation and humiliation, we should give them the power of now so they can learn the first step to peace is accepting the moment. The Zulus of South Africa, the Mau Mau of Kenya, the Vietnamese, the Afghanis, the Algerians - all should have just been at peace with their settlers and imperialists who they resisted against successfully instead.

Edited November 22, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

@Danioover9000 Nicely written. Other peoples always resisted and fought for their lands whether the Vietnamese against the Americans, the Algerians against the French, or the South African and Kenyans against the British. The key difference with Israel / Palestine I see is that while the others fought for their heritage, the Palestinians are fighting not only for their heritage but also for what is holy to them and their religion. That divine holy dimension coming into the mix with the Muslim world rallying behind them fuels them further into resistance.

Reminds me of a lovely and poetic book:

 

MIRDAD: Did you not say you would have peace?

Prince: Yes, I would have peace.

MIRDAD: Then do not fight.

Prince: But my neighbour insists on fighting me; and I must fight him that peace may reign between us.

MIRDAD: You would kill your neighbour that you may live with him at peace! How strange the spectacle! There is no merit in living at peace with the dead. But a great virtue it is to live at peace with the living. If you must wage a war on any living man, or thing, whose tastes and interests may clash at times with yours, then wage a war on God who caused these things to be. And wage a war upon the Universe; for countless are the things therein that disconcert your mind, and trouble your heart, and willy-nilly force themselves upon your life.

Prince: What should I do when I would be at peace with my neighbour, but he would fight?

MIRDAD: Fight!

Prince: Now you counsel me alright.

MIRDAD: Aye, fight! But not your neighbour. Fight rather all the things that cause you and your neighbour to fight. Why does your neighbour wish to fight you? Is it because your eyes are blue, and his are hazel? Is it because you dream of angels, and he dreams of devils? Or is it because you love him as yourself and holds all yours as his? It is your robes, O prince, your throne, your wealth, your glory and the things to which you are a prisoner that your neighbour wants to fight you for. If you would defeat him without lifting a spear, then go forth and declare a war on all these things. 

When you have conquered them by ridding your soul of their clutches; when you have cast them out upon the rubbish heap, maybe then your neighbour will halt his march, and sheath his sword, and say to himself, ‘Were these things worth a fight, my neighbour would not have cast them away upon the rubbish heap.’ Should your neighbour preserve still be greedily enraged and carry away the rubbish heap, rejoice at your own freedom from such a load, but grieve over your neighbour’s lot.

Prince: What of my honour which is worth far more than all my possessions?

MIRDAD: Man’s only honour is being Man, God’s likeness and image. All other honours are dishonours. An honour bestowed by men is easily taken away by men. An honour written with the sword is easily effaced by the sword. No honour, O prince, is worth a rusted arrow; much less a burning tear; much less a drop of blood.

Edited November 23, 2023 by zazen

[Raze]

Cenk makes a good point here, I’m not sure why Hamas is agreeing to this deal. At any time Israel can take as many Gaza’s civilian hostages as they want, and I don’t see why the Gazans they are freeing will be better off in Gaza during the bombings. Hamas isn’t getting any fuel or an extended ceasefire either. Maybe they feel like releasing the child and female hostages will give them better PR and it’ll make Israel look bad as they’re not admitting publicly they had Gazans hostage?

[Raze]

 

[Nivsch]

10 hours ago, Raze said:

Cenk makes a good point here, I’m not sure why Hamas is agreeing to this deal. At any time Israel can take as many Gaza’s civilian hostages as they want, and I don’t see why the Gazans they are freeing will be better off in Gaza during the bombings. Hamas isn’t getting any fuel or an extended ceasefire either. Maybe they feel like releasing the child and female hostages will give them better PR and it’ll make Israel look bad as they’re not admitting publicly they had Gazans hostage?

You are in la la land.

we don't kidnap people.

But I am not blaming you. You just don't know Israel. Its understandable.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

9 hours ago, Raze said:

Cenk makes a good point here, I’m not sure why Hamas is agreeing to this deal. At any time Israel can take as many Gaza’s civilian hostages as they want, and I don’t see why the Gazans they are freeing will be better off in Gaza during the bombings. Hamas isn’t getting any fuel or an extended ceasefire either. Maybe they feel like releasing the child and female hostages will give them better PR and it’ll make Israel look bad as they’re not admitting publicly they had Gazans hostage?

   Seems likely this is a PR move on HAMA's part. This and guerilla warfare is all they can do against Israel.