New War In Israel / Gaza

[PurpleTree]

18 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen The issue with Israelis is that they do not see themselves as oppressors and settlers. Unless they do, then they will always play the victim.

Nobody ever ever sees themselves as „the oppressor“

turks, iranians etc neither

[Karmadhi]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

iranians etc neither

Iranians oppress their own people but not other countries or groups. I do not see Iran stealing land or invading anyone like Israel does. 

[PurpleTree]

Just now, Karmadhi said:

Iranians oppress their own people but not other countries or groups. I do not see Iran stealing land or invading anyone like Israel does. 

no they oppress for example kurds in their country but also in iraq

[zazen]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Every society has its edge cases. I have never seen Israeli childern sing like this before.

What needs to be remembered:

In israel this is an edge.

In Gaza this is the norm.

but you will keep cherry pick cases like this from channels managed by people who have never set their foot on here.

A lot of the Israeli leadership seem to be extreme. If Israel is a democracy and democracy is meant to be a system which is for the people, by the people and representative of the people then what does that say? 

A compiled list of extreme statements said by Israeli politicians and people with positions of power or prestige: https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/fighting-amalek-in-gaza-what-israelis

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, 19 November: “I agree with every word of Giora Eiland in this article [in which Eiland called for targeting “the entire Gaza population” and causing “severe epidemics” to break out there]”

Advisor to Defence Minister Gallant, former head of National Security Council and former IDF operations chief Giora Eiland, 19 November: “Israel is not fighting a terrorist organization but against the State of Gaza. The State of Gaza is indeed under Hamas leadership, and this organization managed to mobilize all the resources of its state, the support of the majority of its citizens, and the absolute loyalty of its civil administration, around Sinwar’s leadership, while fully supporting his ideology.

Minister for Agriculture and former Head of the Shin Bet Avi Dichter, 11 November: “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba. From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war—as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza—with masses between the tanks and the soldiers … Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end”

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

Since most people use this thread I will write a comment here (I wrote it on another thread today)

"

You guys here that support Israel are really naive.

The reason the death toll is so high, is not by fault but by design.

Dahiya doctrine - Wikiwand

I will quote: "The Dahiya doctrine, or Dahya doctrine, is a military strategy of asymmetric warfare, outlined by former Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of General Staff Gadi Eizenkot, which encompasses the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of regimes deemed to be hostile as a measure calculated to deny combatants the use of that infrastructure and endorses the employment of "disproportionate force" to secure that end.

The doctrine is named after the Dahieh neighborhood of Beirut, where Hezbollah was headquartered during the 2006 Lebanon War, which were heavily damaged by the IDF"

This is what they are doing in Gaza as a response to the Hamas attack.

It is done to beat them so badly, to crush them so much that they will never dare to raise against Israel again. 

Basically to terrorize the entire population of Gaza into submission so every man knows if they dare to attack Israel, their entire family will be killed in response. This will make them think twice about doing so.

I dont understand why is it so hard for you guys to accept it? It does make logical and strategical sense (although I think it is not effective).

The Germans had a similar policy against Slavs partisan attacks during the second world war. They burn down villages close to where the Partisan attacks happened in response.

This is not some new invention, it is textbook military strategy."

2 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

no they oppress for example kurds in their country but also in iraq

I see. Their government is shit to be honest. Their own people hate them. I think when their leader dies they will be overthrown by a revolution because I think most Iranians are tired of them. Plenty of protests lately about it.

[Lila9]

7 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

They also interviewed Jews in concentration camps saying "we are ok here", as propaganda movies. PragerU is pure horshit blue propaganda.

I would not take it seriously.

Also, is this about West Bank or Gaza? Because that is where the horrible things happen.

They are poor because of Israel, so of course Israel is more desirable. When you become rich at expense of others, that is blood money.

 

Lol, you compare Arabs in Israel to Jews in a concentration camp. This is so disconnected from reality and doesn't respect holocaust survivors who actually were in concentration camps nor Arabs in Israel who live decently, with religious freedom and better than most Arabs in the world.

Additionally, it's more difficult for Arabs in Israel to admit how good their lives in Israel are since Arabs in the world and even radicals in their community can see this as betrayal. This is your problem that you don't take it seriously, only because you believe in some delusional reality of Arabs in Israel due to your bias and demonization of Israel without spending one day in Israel, doesn't mean it's the truth.

[Lila9]

7 hours ago, zazen said:

So when the Zulus resisted the British or the Kenyans or the Vietnamese against the Americans which all ended up in them leaving - that was all because they were racist? If a burglar comes to my house and i defend myself against them its probably only because I'm racist? Frivolous use of the anti-semite word has cheapened it. We can't blame everything on it just like Muslims can't use the Islamophobia label to shut down criticism. 

Criticism is always necessary.

However, when it comes in a disproportionate amount with questioning the right of Jews to exist in Israel, despite their strong history and connection to this place, despite being explled from dozens of countries due to irrational antisemitism, despite Muslim Arabs have so many countries, disproportionate blaming on Israel without condomning savages more dangerous than Nazis like Hamas, it's very clear that it's antisemitism.

 Any attempt to deny antisemitism and say that there is no antisemitism involved in this conflict, is gaslighting.

 

7 hours ago, zazen said:

Jews lived peacefully over all under the muslims, the Jews were protected and fled to the muslims when they were being prosecuted in Christian Europe which ended in the climax that is the holocaust.

What has Israel done with its power and muslims living under the Jews? They've allowed settlers to encroach their lands in the West Bank and displace them further.

Jews also were expelled by Muslims in the Muslim countries, after they escaped to Muslim countries from Europe so painting an image that Muslims are more tolerant towards Jews would be a joke. There are barely any Jews in Muslim countries.

This is why having Israel is so important for Jews. History proved no place is safe for Jews.

Even in Israel they prescued by radical antisemitic entities like Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas but at least they have army to defend themselves.

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

@Lila9 But they will keep saying "occupation" every 3 hours just because their agenda is anti Israel to begin with no matter what, exactly at the same way they choose to focus only on Gaza's children when they forget that up until now those children have been captives of a cult and now they get a chance to heal, but on that, of course, they won't talk.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Nivsch

[Jodistrict]

 

[Raze]

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Raze

[zazen]

11 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen The issue with Israelis is that they do not see themselves as oppressors and settlers. Unless they do, then they will always play the victim.

Yeah, if we can’t even agree on the basic facts of the situation which are omitted any further discussion won’t make sense.

@Lila9 @Nivsch

Leaving a place but controlling most aspects of it isn’t leaving. If I left your house but controlled your ability to come and go, what was delivered to it, could access your internet and telephone lines and won’t even let you into your garden (for them they can’t use their own sea properly to fish and feed themselves) - that isn’t leaving them alone.

 https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-destroying-gaza-s-fishing-sector

 Gaza and the West Bank are literally called occupied territories by:

The British government- https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/the-occupied-palestinian-territories

The European council on foreign relations - https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/opt/

The US - https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/

Wiki - The Palestinian territories are the two regions of the former British Mandate for Palestine that have been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, namely the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has referred to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as "the Occupied Palestinian Territory"

Edited November 22, 2023 by zazen

[lina]

11 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen The issue with Israelis is that they do not see themselves as oppressors and settlers. Unless they do, then they will always play the victim.

Exactly. All discussions seems futile and end up getting lost in blaming Hamas for everything. It seems to either stem from massive misinformation or  just the inability to see Palestinians as equal human beings. 

[Twentyfirst]

@lina Makes you wonder who they blamed before Hamas even existed  

[Twentyfirst]

The reason that Hamas hates Israel is because Israel acts like a monster towards Palestine. So to defeat a monster you have to take extreme measures like call for the complete eradication of it. Israel acts good to everyone except Palestine which is actually worse because Palestine isn't stupid and they see the unequal treatment. It's like a kid who realizes his mom treats his sibling better than him. It creates even more resentment than if she treated him bad but also his sibling equally bad. Once Israel stops acting like monsters towards the Palestinians I think it's fair to say they will calm down naturally without the need for peace treaties  

[Twentyfirst]

The reason this has gone on so long is that both sides have extreme endurance.

Israel can endure for a long time because they have the best security, they run to USA whenever they need help, and only 5 percent of casualties are Israeli.

For every 1 Israeli that dies or is affected theres like 20 Palestinians that die horrible, lose family, are displaced from homes, live in poverty, have hopelessness, and are born to die 

So Palestinians endure because they have a high birth rate, believe in god, are raised to believe the land is rightfully theirs no matter what happens 

Obviously it's unbalanced but the Israelis count the holocaust in this. So all the pain and violence they experienced then they count as "for every 20 Israelis that suffer theres 20 Palestinians that suffer"

[lina]

@Twentyfirst to occupiers any resistance even the peaceful ones is usually labeled as terrorism that should be abolished. 

https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kxmwe/stuart-seldowitz-halal-cart-harassment 

Ex Obama Adviser Says Killing 4,000 Palestinian Children ‘Wasn’t Enough’

https://www.tiktok.com/@vicenews/video/7304043058415340832 

 

This is not just another hateful racist. This was a senior political officer in the U.S. State Department’s Office of Israel and Palestinian Affairs from 1999 to 2003. 

[Twentyfirst]

@lina Just the other day I heard a little Palestinian boy say he can't wait to grow up to kill Jews. I don't encourage or even agree with that. Especially for children to think that way. But what was I supposed to say to him? Israel makes it impossible for me to defend them

[zazen]

1 hour ago, lina said:

@Twentyfirst to occupiers any resistance even the peaceful ones is usually labeled as terrorism that should be abolished. 

https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kxmwe/stuart-seldowitz-halal-cart-harassment 

Ex Obama Adviser Says Killing 4,000 Palestinian Children ‘Wasn’t Enough’

https://www.tiktok.com/@vicenews/video/7304043058415340832 

 

This is not just another hateful racist. This was a senior political officer in the U.S. State Department’s Office of Israel and Palestinian Affairs from 1999 to 2003. 

Politics and power can tend to draw the worst of society to it and draw out the worst aspects of otherwise good people once they occupy powerful political positions. People need to de-personalize critique of the political entities that run their countries. For example when we critique Israel's actions it is taken as a personalized attack on the Israeli people. 

 

Caitlin Johnstone wrote on the above video now going viral:

''That such a horrible person could climb his way to the highest echelons of the world’s most powerful government — working on Palestinian affairs no less — illustrates an important point about the US empire and what it is. There are no barriers stopping such creatures from rising to the top of that power structure, just the opposite in fact — they get an express lane to the top. That’s why bloodthirsty swamp monsters like John Bolton, Lindsey Graham, Victoria Nuland and Elliott Abrams find themselves so intimately involved with US policymaking.

That’s the true face of the US empire, right there. That’s the empire at its most honest. Not dressed up in affable charm and slick PR work, but sneering and hurling racist invective at immigrants who are just trying to do their jobs in peace. Not performing carefully rehearsed faces of compassion for the Palestinians who are being “tragically” and “unintentionally” killed as “collateral damage” in Israel’s war of “defense” against Hamas, but staring right into the camera and saying “If we killed 4,000 Palestinian kids, you know what? It wasn’t enough.”

It’s only when you see clearly that Israel is just an arm of the same empire that’s been murdering people by the millions around the world with nonstop invasions, bombing campaigns, proxy conflicts, starvation sanctions and CIA coups that you understand that, yes, Israel really is exactly as evil as it appears to be, and its behavior in Gaza is exactly what it looks like.

The US empire backs Israel for the same reason it backs most of the world’s dictatorships: because a globe-spanning empire can only be held together by nonstop violence and tyranny. Israel and other US-aligned states in the middle east are like the chair and the whip of a lion tamer — weapons used to violently abuse the populations of a crucial geostrategic region into compliance. It suits the empire perfectly to have a nuclear-armed government which exists in a constant state of war in the middle east governed by officials who speak English with American accents and interests which are reliably in alignment with those of the United States.''

 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

@lina Just the other day I heard a little Palestinian boy say he can't wait to grow up to kill Jews. I don't encourage or even agree with that. Especially for children to think that way. But what was I supposed to say to him? Israel makes it impossible for me to defend them

As Elon Musk said they can't take actions in defeating Hamas that only create a Hamas 2.0. 

With scenes like this and with young fighting age men with no future from a blockaded small strip of land what else are they to do but take up arms to break free of the cage. The slave revolter's of the past weren't called terrorists because people actually could understand what their resisting against.

 

[lina]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

The US empire backs Israel for the same reason it backs most of the world’s dictatorships: because a globe-spanning empire can only be held together by nonstop violence and tyranny. Israel and other US-aligned states in the middle east are like the chair and the whip of a lion tamer — weapons used to violently abuse the populations of a crucial geostrategic region into compliance.

That's the truth, and then you find people justify this because people in the middle east are not "developed" or "score high enough" in the spiral dynamics so they deserve to be oppressed, if anything it's because of the west's actions that are keeping the middle east in this loop.