New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

49 minutes ago, zazen said:

Of course they would rather live in Israel than the Palestinian areas because those areas are blockaded and occupied to the point of terrible living conditions. 

Most Arabs countries are suck for living due to lack in democracy, development, liberalism and human rights.

It's not unique to Palestinians in Gaza or WB which means it's not Israel to blame.

People who really know how Arabs live in the middle east claim that Palestinians in Gaza and WB have life quality similar to most Arabs in Arab countries, and even better.

 

[Karmadhi]

55 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Most Arabs countries are suck for living due to lack in democracy, development, liberalism and human rights.

I love how Israel uses the "We are a democracy" to elevate themselves morally from the rest of the region.

What are human rights good for if they dont apply to you if you are Palestinian?

The Gulf countries have none of the things you wrote above yet many people from all over the world live there and they rarely immigrate. 

How come?

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Most Arabs countries are suck for living due to lack in democracy, development, liberalism and human rights.

It's not unique to Palestinians in Gaza or WB which means it's not Israel to blame.

People who really know how Arabs live in the middle east claim that Palestinians in Gaza and WB have life quality similar to most Arabs in Arab countries, and even better.

 

So that gives another group of people the right to govern and rule them? Sounds colonial to me.

It is possible to be a stage green terrorist. You can have stage green values, talking points and hold those positions yet have a stage red heart, state of being and disposition.

Just as America can have a white house and yet a black heart. ''Oh look how good our liberty, feminism and democracy is, - lets go around the world overthrowing governments and starting wars in the name of it.''

People who say they're developed because they aren't as tribal as undeveloped people can also be just as tribal - they just re-tribalise around different values.

Maybe the whole Arab world should just give up to Israel as the supreme rulers because their so 'developed'. Maybe the Japanese or Singaporeans should rule the world because their societies are very orderly, clean and safe compared to everywhere else.

 

[Lila9]

39 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The Gulf countries have none of the things you wrote above yet many people from all over the world live there and they rarely immigrate. 

How come?

Young people usually immigrate to US or Europe for education purposes.

And the rest... why would they immegrate? Most of them are Muslims who love their culture, their country and living around Muslims, they are not fond of the west and western values, especially the older generations. They would tolerate curropted leadership and less human rights and democracy rather than starting everything in a new country and living as a foreigner in a new country with secularism, LGBTQ and feminism, women with short pants and transgenders which doesn't suit their values.

 

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

So that gives another group of people the right to govern and rule them? Sounds colonial to me.

If they have no problem with Israel governing them, why you should have a problem?

18 minutes ago, zazen said:

it is possible to be a stage green terrorist. You can have stage green values, talking points and hold those positions yet have a stage red heart, state of being and disposition.

So Hamas is stage green? Gotcha.

Now seriously, for the Arab world to evolve to green they should first integrate orange, you know, science, accepting the evulotion theory, logic, human rights and individual freedom over religion. But they are still very deep into Islam and dismissive of evolution, the idea that we are family with monkeys is probably triggering for the majority of them.

23 minutes ago, zazen said:

Maybe the whole Arab world should just give up to Israel as the supreme rulers because their so 'developed'.

Israel is really developed in comparison to the Arab world. And if the Arab world should give up on Israel it's not necessarily because Israel is more developed but more because Muslim Arabs have so much territory.

 

[zazen]

17 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

If they have no problem with Israel governing them, why you should have a problem?

Because the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank do have a problem with Israel governing / occupying them.

17 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

So Hamas is stage green? Gotcha.

Now seriously, for the Arab world to evolve to green they should first integrate orange, you know, science, accepting the evulotion theory, logic, human rights and individual freedom over religion. But they are still very deep into Islam and dismissive of evolution, the idea that we are family with monkeys is probably triggering for the majority of them

I didn't mean Hamas are green but Israel or the West which you also think are more developed or closer to stage green. My point is they can still be terrorists and tribal but from that stage. For so much talk about logic a lot of people can't seem to see cause and affect and establish a chain of events that lead to October the 7th or how Israels current actions will logically recruit more member for Hamas as Elon Musk rightly pointed out

You think Israelis are developed because they believe in evolution and the idea that we are a family with monkeys - yet a lot of Israeli's don't see Palestinians as their own family and cousins to the point they propagandize their kids into genocidal language towards them like below:

Does that seem logical, evolved and developed?

17 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Israel is really developed in comparison to the Arab world. And if the Arab world should give up on Israel it's not necessarily because Israel is more developed but more because Muslim Arabs have so much territory.

You misunderstood as you did the other points. If a country or people are developed does that give them the right to rule other countries or people who aren't developed? Are the Japanese more developed than Israel? Should they be allow to govern Israel?

Edited November 20, 2023 by zazen

[Lila9]

20 minutes ago, zazen said:

Because the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank do have a problem with Israel governing / occupying them.

They have problem with Hamas and their leadership as well. If someone is occupying them is their leaders.

20 minutes ago, zazen said:

For so much talk about logic a lot of people can't seem to see cause and affect and establish a chain of events that lead to October the 7th or how Israels current actions will logically recruit more member for Hamas as Elon Musk rightly pointed out

 

The main reason for 7 October attack or any attack on Israel, by Hamas Hezbollah, Iran or whatever country in the ME is antisemitism.

It's stated in Hamas doctrine that their goal is to eliminate Jews. Not only Israel, not Zionists, but Jews. Like Hitler.

When someone hate Jews because they are Jews, which is irrational by itself, it cannot be understood rationally. The cause and effect rule doesn't apply in this case. 

They attack Jews because they hate them and want to eliminate them. That's it.

20 minutes ago, zazen said:

You think Israelis are developed because they believe in evolution and the idea that we are a family with monkeys - yet a lot of Israeli's don't see Palestinians as their own family and cousins to the point they propagandize their kids into genocidal language towards them like below:

It's not even close to the hatred Palestinian children are raised towards Jews. It's literally integrated in their school program.

20 minutes ago, zazen said:

Does that seem logical, evolved and developed?

They are humans, developed doesn't mean perfect. 

 

20 minutes ago, zazen said:

You misunderstood as you did the other points. If a country or people are developed does that give them the right to rule other countries or people who aren't developed?

It's better to live in a developed country rather than in not so developed. It's better and safer for Muslims to live under a Jewish leadership rather than for Jews under a Muslim leadership.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Lila9

[Yimpa]

Conflict benefits the whole in the long-term, but it is impossible to see that while in the middle of conflict. 

Just observe a single tree and imagine how much conflict it has gone through to get to where it is now. 

Judging a tree harshly while it’s currently being exposed to a ravaging storm is an immature response to conflict.

[Yimpa]

What I said may come off as religious (i.e. the whole “thoughts and prayers” mentality). But look at even that response with more nuance. Are you praying or wishing for some conflict to unfold in a way that fits your paradigm of what’s right and wrong? Notice the major bias in that response as well, even if on the surface it looks innocent.

To observe a situation more objectively is to accept even the aspects of conflict that you downright disagree with. 

[Nivsch]

"hamas IS the palestinians in Gaza"

"They (the civilians) cheer them (the terrorists) on with such glee, with such pride"

An important video:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cz5rCKzo7_b/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

What does not give an excuse to not trying to attack only official hamas people as accurate as possible of course, BUT it meant to show something deeper about the decay the whole Gaza's society is found in.

The collateral damage is not pleasant and has to be minimized as much as possible, but it cannot be avoided if we want to heal the society of Gaza in the long term.

And before you jump, of course this is not the IDF that will heal them, but only their leaders who will come after that will, but the first part of the healing process its the IDF that have to do.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

   Interesting video of the conflict:

 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

21 hours ago, zazen said:

Because the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank do have a problem with Israel governing / occupying them.

I didn't mean Hamas are green but Israel or the West which you also think are more developed or closer to stage green. My point is they can still be terrorists and tribal but from that stage. For so much talk about logic a lot of people can't seem to see cause and affect and establish a chain of events that lead to October the 7th or how Israels current actions will logically recruit more member for Hamas as Elon Musk rightly pointed out

You think Israelis are developed because they believe in evolution and the idea that we are a family with monkeys - yet a lot of Israeli's don't see Palestinians as their own family and cousins to the point they propagandize their kids into genocidal language towards them like below:

Does that seem logical, evolved and developed?

You misunderstood as you did the other points. If a country or people are developed does that give them the right to rule other countries or people who aren't developed? Are the Japanese more developed than Israel? Should they be allow to govern Israel?

   Great example of propaganda, narrative, and ideological warfare, grooming and indoctrination. So, how do we deal with such indoctrination in the middle of an asymmetrical warfare, between two collective cultures?

[Nivsch]

[PurpleTree]

 

[Nivsch]

@zazen Every society has its edge cases. I have never seen Israeli childern sing like this before.

What needs to be remembered:

In israel this is an edge.

In Gaza this is the norm.

but you will keep cherry pick cases like this from channels managed by people who have never set their foot on here.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

 

[PurpleTree]

ground fighting tactics 

 

[Karmadhi]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:31 PM, Lila9 said:

Arabs in Israel:

They also interviewed Jews in concentration camps saying "we are ok here", as propaganda movies. PragerU is pure horshit blue propaganda.

I would not take it seriously.

Also, is this about West Bank or Gaza? Because that is where the horrible things happen.

They are poor because of Israel, so of course Israel is more desirable. When you become rich at expense of others, that is blood money.

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

On 11/20/2023 at 5:56 PM, Lila9 said:

The main reason for 7 October attack or any attack on Israel, by Hamas Hezbollah, Iran or whatever country in the ME is antisemitism.

It's stated in Hamas doctrine that their goal is to eliminate Jews. Not only Israel, not Zionists, but Jews. Like Hitler.

When someone hate Jews because they are Jews, which is irrational by itself, it cannot be understood rationally. The cause and effect rule doesn't apply in this case. 

They attack Jews because they hate them and want to eliminate them. That's it

So when the Zulus resisted the British or the Kenyans or the Vietnamese against the Americans which all ended up in them leaving - that was all because they were racist? If a burglar comes to my house and i defend myself against them its probably only because I'm racist? Frivolous use of the anti-semite word has cheapened it. We can't blame everything on it just like Muslims can't use the Islamophobia label to shut down criticism. 

On 11/20/2023 at 5:56 PM, Lila9 said:

It's better to live in a developed country rather than in not so developed. It's better and safer for Muslims to live under a Jewish leadership rather than for Jews under a Muslim leadership

It's better for neither to live under the other but in a secular state or their own if they can't live side by side.But if we'r gonna go there, historically whats the track record? Jews lived peacefully over all under the muslims, the Jews were protected and fled to the muslims when they were being prosecuted in Christian Europe which ended in the climax that is the holocaust.

What has Israel done with its power and muslims living under the Jews? They've allowed settlers to encroach their lands in the West Bank and displace them further.

[Karmadhi]

@zazen The issue with Israelis is that they do not see themselves as oppressors and settlers. Unless they do, then they will always play the victim.

[zazen]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@zazen

   Great example of propaganda, narrative, and ideological warfare, grooming and indoctrination. So, how do we deal with such indoctrination in the middle of an asymmetrical warfare, between two collective cultures?

My guess is that during war time both sides will be too consumed by emotion to unlearn any hatred in the midst of it. Bruises heal if we stop hitting them so I first the conflict needs to stop, then with cooler heads and hearts both sides need to see that hating the other doesn't serve either of them.

De-radicalising the collective is a big question with many factors . The simplest thing that comes to mind would be to not be in radically extreme environments. For Israel not feeling like they exist surrounded by threats, for Palestinians not living under an oppressive occupied apparatus.