New War In Israel / Gaza

[Twentyfirst]

15 minutes ago, zazen said:

People who say they're developed because they aren't as tribal as undeveloped people can also be just as tribal - they just re-tribalise around different values. 

It's possible for people to have stage green talking points and positions whilst having a stage red tribalistic mode of being and disposition. Humans are complex.

 

 

 

Lots of virtue signaling around. And that includes being too enlightened to get emotional or take sides. Who said you aren't enlightened or developed if you want a side to win and you justify what they are doing? Who's making the rules? 

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

couldnt happen without the palestinians initial tendency to easily radicalize in certain ways in the first place.

If you were treated like Palestinians have been treated by Israel you would also become radical.

When Jews had an uprising against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto nobody was saying "those evil terrorists".

I think you fundamentally underestimate how ruthless and oppresive Israel is to Palestinians. 

Do a bit of research.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Karmadhi

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

If you were treated like Palestinians have been treated by Israel you would also become radical.

Not necessarily 

tibetans for example didn’t become radical/violent 

who knows maybe they should have though

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

If you were treated like Palestinians have been treated by Israel you would also become radical.

When Jews had an uprising against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto nobody was saying "those evil terrorists".

I think you fundamentally underestimate how ruthless and oppresive Israel is to Palestinians. 

Do a bit of research.

 

They literally picked the most resilient people to try to screw over

They have been trying for 75 years and the Palestinians are nowhere near giving up. They still do daily prayers and are as happy as they can be given the conditions and are hospitable to visitors. They have kept a lot of their humanity to the world even though the international community doesn't do much for them because of politics but they do hate Jews so they have little humanity towards them

The whole world could be deceived but Palestinians will always know the truth so they will always be resilient no matter what so it doesn't really matter what the world thinks or doesn't think. What I am saying is the propaganda can never work on the Palestinians so all this taking land in doses and then playing victim doesn't work which is why they should have stuck with the 67 borders but now its a free for all and they could lose everything including their lives but still they play victim and complain 

Their children are bred from a very young age to never fear a Jew no matter the weaponry and it works. They don't fear

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Not necessarily 

tibetans for example didn’t become radical/violent 

who knows maybe they should have though

Didn't like 90% of their entire culture get wiped out and permanently lost? Thats a gift that could have been shared with the world 

[Twentyfirst]

I heard someone on a YouTube video today say that Arabic doesn't have the letter P in it so that means that Palestine could have never actually existed and thats why the Jews belong there. Not knowing that it's actually pronounced Falastin. I mean this is the level of retardation that needs to be dealt with 

[PurpleTree]

14 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Didn't like 90% of their entire culture get wiped out and permanently lost? Thats a gift that could have been shared with the world 

Yea probably 

theres quite a community of tibetan refugees in my country

they’re some of the most peaceful people imo

[Karmadhi]

I am curious if Hamas teleported in Tel Aviv and was holding every school, hospital etc in Tel Aviv would Israel be ok to raze Tel Aviv to the ground and kill 13.000 Israeli civilians if it means taking out Hamas.

You can tell they value Israeli babes far more than Palestinian babies.

I do not expect equality but at least some sort of care.

[Twentyfirst]

26 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Yea probably 

theres quite a community of tibetan refugees in my country

they’re some of the most peaceful people imo

But would they still be peaceful if millions of them were trapped in the most dense urban area in the world deprived of human rights for decades

Edited November 19, 2023 by Twentyfirst

[zazen]

 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

If you were treated like Palestinians have been treated by Israel you would also become radical.

When Jews had an uprising against the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto nobody was saying "those evil terrorists".

I think you fundamentally underestimate how ruthless and oppresive Israel is to Palestinians. 

Do a bit of research.

 

Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity - Dune

Believing you can get rid of violent resistance groups with bombs is like believing you can get rid of a bruise by punching it harder.

Bombing them only nurtures the very conflict Israel seek to eradicate - it legitimizes and enables factions of resistance even more.

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

Lots of virtue signaling around. And that includes being too enlightened to get emotional or take sides. Who said you aren't enlightened or developed if you want a side to win and you justify what they are doing? Who's making the rules? 

True, I get it if people are just too busy or don't feel knowledgeable enough to make a judgment but don't think it takes such extensive study either. 

The enlightened types like to be detached from the disputes and dichotomies of the common man,  looking down at it all from a lofty place of transcendence. As Ram Dass said, part of awakening can be playing the role of form we are in - that is human. To be human, we've got to get down in the muck where the humanness is happening.

Moral relativity is about understanding both sides but moral legitimacy is about determining the rightness of each side. Pluralism doesn't always mean neutralism.

It's possible to see both sides of every contentious issue - that's a sign of intellectual maturity.  But just because we can see both sides doesn’t mean we should live our life as though they both have equal merit. We have to further grapple with the rightness of each side or else we'd be neglecting a whole dimension of understanding if we just left it too “well I can see both sides which means both are equally right”.

It’s good to understand that all concepts are relative and that none contain absolute truth, but this necessarily means that some concepts are more relatively truthful than others and by extension some actions are more relatively right than others.

None of us live our lives as though all things are the same and all concepts are equally true - men can't have babies for example. We don’t drink bleach to wake us up, we order a coffee. When we want to go to somewhere we take a specific route, we don’t walk in a random direction and hope for manifestation to do its magic. Our daily choices reflect our reliance on relative truths as a fundamental aspect of our everyday life.

We should be able to apply it to this conflict also. I can understand why a robber had to rob to feed his family but I can still claim it not to be right. I can understand why Hamas did what they did and still claim it not to be right. I can understand why Israel feels entitled to the land of Palestine and still claim it not to be right.

Understanding and analysis of a situation does not mean justification and approval of it.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by zazen

[Twentyfirst]

Theres something that gives away this ENTIRE conflict. Follow me here its quite simple really

Ask an Israeli if they want peace. They will say yes

Then ask them why things went wrong and why its a terrible situation that cant be solved. They will blame Palestinians

Then ask them if they had a chance to go back in time and choose a different land without indigenous people now that they know the horrible results in the Middle East (and how violent the Palestinians are for ruining their side of the bargain). They will say no

Ask them why wouldn't they change the initial decision for a more peaceful land. They will say because a prophecy told them to take that land and because they had to go through the holocaust

Tell them that means if they go back in time and choose the same thing then that means they are also choosing the current violence and suffering thats occurring (everything thats happened in the last 75 years including today and whatever happens tomorrow). Tell them that it would solve nothing. They will say okay it's fine 

So you can say that they came to the lands thinking there would be peace and maybe thats true. But now that we all know there isn't peace and won't be peace they still wouldn't retract their decision because for them it's not about peace....it's about conquering

Go ahead and go through the experiment by asking Israelis outside this forum. Ask 10 of them and see what happens and how accurate my assessment is 

And if they say yes I would go back in time and change the decision. Tell them to leave now. They won't

If you can't understand this well the eyes are useless when the mind is blind 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Twentyfirst

[lina]

 

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Again, the radicalization as we see from hamas was here even before 48'. Can you give examples that disturb you the most about how bad Israel treat the palestinians in your opinion?

BTW if France were surrounded by huge 6 enemy countries treaten to kill all of its citizens and one of them would let France only a narrow corridor between its border and the sea of 30km length, wouldn't france also keep those countries guarded by it, even grossly and maybe not always in nice ways, especially this country mentioned?

Edited November 20, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

More children died in Gaza in the last month than all the wars in the world for the last three years combined. John Mearsheimer who Leo shared is a great source of information.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen I would doubt and question very seriously, checking it again from a blank slate - What is really the number of civilians casualties in Gaza?

It seems that Gaza's health ministry reports are mixings hamas people with civilians.

Worth couple of minutes to hear this:

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Nivsch

[bariumly]

13 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Not necessarily 

tibetans for example didn’t become radical/violent 

who knows maybe they should have though

That's a crucial aspect of this conflict. Arabs are distinct from Tibetans or Japanese. Let's hypothetically consider a scenario where an Arab country is nuked. Do you believe we would surrender as the Japanese did for the US? This is where the stereotype about Arabs persists, and it's something the West may never fully comprehend. We will always remember, regardless of the circumstances...
 

[Lila9]

Many people who have never been in Israel and don't know where Israel is even located on the map, say: "Israel is an apartheid state."

Arabs in Israel:

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Again, the radicalization as we see from hamas was here even before 48'. Can you give examples that disturb you the most about how bad Israel treat the palestinians in your opinion?

BTW if France were surrounded by huge 6 enemy countries treaten to kill all of its citizens and one of them would let France only a narrow corridor between its border and the sea of 30km length, wouldn't france also keep those countries guarded by it, even grossly and maybe not always in nice ways, especially this country mentioned?

That's one of the reasons why the term "occupation" in relation to Israel is absurd.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Lila9

[zazen]

@Lila9  Of course they would rather live in Israel than the Palestinian areas because those areas are blockaded and occupied to the point of terrible living conditions. 

- How does your economy develop if exports of produce and commercial goods from Gaza are banned or severely restricted?

-Since 2000, Israel has prevented students in Gaza from traveling to study at universities in the West Bank, some of which offer fields of study and degrees not available in Gaza. According to a report from Haaretz newspaper, between 2000 and 2012 Israel let just three Gazans travel to study at universities in the West Bank, all of whom had received US government scholarships. 

- In early 2006, Dov Weisglass, then a senior advisor to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, explained that Israel’s policy towards Gaza was designed “to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.” 

- In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army.

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Many people who have never been in Israel and don't know where Israel is even located on the map, say: "Israel is an apartheid state."