New War In Israel / Gaza

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Same logic applied to dating would be for a incel to say its not like women were fond of him so might as well become misogynist which will only make them hate him further.

Silly analogy I'm not even going to bother responding to. Do better.

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The reality is that Israel put the Palestinian people in an impossible position.  Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't turn the other cheek at decades of oppression and abuse by the Israeli regime, till you no longer have a cheek. The Middle East is no picnic - exactly why they will not stop resisting occupation and settlement expansion as to not invite more of it. This further is fueled by Islam, which is peaceful for the most part but isn't a pacifist religion either. Likewise, Israel do not want to deal with Hezbollah after failing to defeat them.

So now that Hamas has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the resistance of occupation.Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens.

Ok, and what point did you make? By flipping the script you haven't disputed anything I've said. I actually agree with your reframing of what I wrote. Of course Hamas is inevitably going to do Hamas things, which is inevitably why they will be destroyed. 

The only realistic range of different possibilities would be where Israel values it's own casualties vs. Palestinians. Hamas is always going to attack, and Israel is always going to retaliate, to what degree is where the meaningful discussion is had. 

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Step 1: Destroy nations and displace tens of millions of people.

Step 2: Wait for some of those people to hate you and want to fight back.

Step 3: Use their desire to fight back as justification to repeat Step 1.

If you want the most cynical interpretation of events, there it is. There are certainly some in the Israeli administration who agree with it. Certainly not all, there's a lot of disagreement and divergence of opinion among Israelis. Personally, I don't think there is an official plan. Right now Israel is reacting, and no one really knows where exactly this is going. 

Like most conspiracy theories, there's too many players with different agendas to really make them happen so simplistically. 

[hundreth]

I'd also like to add that there are some key differences between Hamas' actions and the current IDF campaign:

For one, prior to Hamas' attack there were actually attempts to improve relations with Gaza by increasing work permits, etc. There was a break in the conflict. For this one moment in time, the Gazans were relatively unprovoked. Israel responded directly to a serious escalation. 

Two, Hamas' actions had no tangible goal. Intentions matter. What was Hamas hoping to change? Nothing. They literally achieved nothing except for murder.

The IDF has a direct goal, eliminate Hamas. Something will change, even if you don't agree with the strategy or outcome. Again, intentions matter. If a ceasefire happens, and Hamas remains in power in Gaza, I will concede the operation was a failure and unwarranted. 

[Hsinav]

20 hours ago, Raze said:

 

Low numbers of HAMAS fighters eliminated according to HAMAS.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hsinav

[hundreth]

37 minutes ago, Hsinav said:

Low numbers of HAMAS fighters eliminated according to HAMAS.

Being a Hamas member is a fluid concept. I doubt there's an official all encompassing roster of Hamas enlistees. You're Hamas when you pick up weapons and engage in combat with the IDF. Then you're not Hamas when you take the vest off. 

The focus is on Hamas infrastructure more than combatants. The only thing they can do is cut off Hamas' command networks, tunnels and stockpiles. Like many here have mentioned, you can't militarily defeat a state of mind. You can only temporarily disable their capabilities. 

Hopefully during this power vacuum, there is space for something more positive to emerge. 

[Thought Art]

I sense this is a highly complicated problem where there is no easy solution. It’s painful and confusing. I am not picking a side. But, looking to understand the perspectives of all actors. 
 

I live next to a common protest area. I can hear “free Palestine” chants. 
 

I want to understand. 
 

There is so much noise it’s hard to know what’s accurate. I don’t deeply understand this conflicts history. I don’t know the reality of destroying Hamas, which is the one thing I can understand doing after what they did to Israel. 
 

I think killing innocent civilians is wrong. 
 

I am biased towards peace and harmony. But, I realize war is a natural part of reality and a necessity. 
 

I really don’t know much about this so… please understand that I am learning.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Thought Art

[PurpleTree]

21 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

 

 But, I realize war is a natural part of reality and a necessity. 
 

Is it? I mean in western europe we haven’t had war for like 75 years and nobody’s missing it

[randmonzzin]

here's The Video in Arabic ( English Subtitles available) that will enlighten you about Israeli/Palestine conflict. 

For once in your life, don't pick sides. Be a fairly judge. 

 

[Buck Edwards]

War is INSANE. and insanity is only possible with a lot of backing and support. Nobody acts insane when they feel powerless. This is human nature. 

But everyone acts insane when your batteries are powered up. 

It's easy to see that Israel thinks it's massively powerful. 

Either it's powerful or it's assumed that nobody can do anything to stop war from happening, reminiscent of the Wild West. 

Either we live in the Wild West now or there's a global conspiracy to create a chain of powerful countries. Something is up. But it's not good. This is definitely not a good indicator and I'm expecting something very surprising and radical in the next 2-3 years. Something that will shake the world up. 

[Thought Art]

@PurpleTree Does that mean it’s not natural? Hasn’t there been war there in the past? Over the past 75 years hasn’t the world as a whole had wars in its various parts? Does natural mean pleasant? Is stinging ivy not natural because I having not been stung in 75 years and I’m not missing it?

How do you think Western Europe was formed as it was those 75 years if not through war, conflict and its resolution? World War 2?

You could say it’s not necessary because well, much of the world isn’t at war. But, at the same time the whole world deals with conflicts allllllll the time. Basically what survival is.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Thought Art

[Twentyfirst]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

I sense this is a highly complicated problem where there is no easy solution. It’s painful and confusing. I am not picking a side. But, looking to understand the perspectives of all actors. 
 

I live next to a common protest area. I can hear “free Palestine” chants. 
 

I want to understand. 
 

There is so much noise it’s hard to know what’s accurate. I don’t deeply understand this conflicts history. I don’t know the reality of destroying Hamas, which is the one thing I can understand doing after what they did to Israel. 
 

I think killing innocent civilians is wrong. 
 

I am biased towards peace and harmony. But, I realize war is a natural part of reality and a necessity. 
 

I really don’t know much about this so… please understand that I am learning.

Its not that hard to understand and the solution is quite simple

Think of the Palestinians as human beings. Are you a human being? Yes? Ok so here's the solution

Treat others how you want to be treated.

Do you want someone stealing your home? No? So then why is it okay to happen to Palestinians?

Do you want someone blowing up your 4 generations of your entire family to bits in a matter of seconds? No? So then why is it okay to happen to Palestinians?

Do you want someone locking you into an open air prison for decades controlling your food water electricity and having checkpoints at every turn? No? So then why is it okay to happen to Palestinians?

Do you want someone abusing you for 75 years and any time you lash back they punish you even harder giving you no choice but to keep lashing back? No? So then why is it okay to happen to Palestinians?

The only reason this is difficult to find a solution is because people see Palestinians as less than human. So it's not easy to find a solution or understand why Palestinians do what they do. They do it because they are human just like you 

You all would probably behave much worse in the same position as them. Almost everyone on this forum is a low IQ retard except Leo. And Leo is too enlightened for his own good when it comes to this. Plus he has been into geopolitics the past 18 months it seems from looking at his blog. I think he is new to this conflict and he's gonna do what everyone else does. He's gonna realize how hard it is and just give up completely and shrug his shoulders and say well I hope they figure it out and just move onto the next thing. His love for humanity wont be equal to his love for Palestine because the inhumane propaganda is too strong against Palestine. I have seen it a million times. If everyone on this forum is retarded which y'all are then there is no hope for the world because y'all should be a shining example for society hahaha

The craziest thing and this is how I know the world is full of idiots is that this literally already happened. Hitler killed a bunch of Jews because he saw them as less than human and an obstacle. Then Europes solution was giving them full human rights. So why isn't the solution for Jews killing Palestinians giving them full human rights?

Edited November 18, 2023 by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

I sense this is a highly complicated problem where there is no easy solution. It’s painful and confusing. I am not picking a side. But, looking to understand the perspectives of all actors. 

Is it enlightened to not pick a side or something?

Imagine someone saying about Hitler destroying the Jews "I wont pick a side" 

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Thought Art said:

@PurpleTree Does that mean it’s not natural? Hasn’t there been war there in the past? Over the past 75 years hasn’t the world as a whole had wars in its various parts? Does natural mean pleasant? Is stinging ivy not natural because I having not been stung in 75 years and I’m not missing it?

How do you think Western Europe was formed as it was those 75 years if not through war, conflict and its resolution? World War 2?

You could say it’s not necessary because well, much of the world isn’t at war. But, at the same time the whole world deals with conflicts allllllll the time. Basically what survival is.

If you are advocating for war so much then you and your parents and siblings and children should go and fight. Enough of this keyboard warrior garbage. If I was supreme ruler I would put you into combat as punishment and teaching you a lesson for saying this <3

[zazen]

It’s not complicated to be against occupation and apartheid. What is complicated is how to dismantle it without threatening security - that threat intensifies with more blood spilt and homes demolished.

Israel has made a one state solution impossible and have no intention of a two state solution as it’s literally written in the Likud party’s charter. 

“The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samariawill not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.” -  https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party?utm_content=cmp-true 

When Israel uses from the river to the sea it’s about geographic sovereignty and freedom but when Palestinians use the slogan their genocidal terrorists. Why is it that one group are designated freedom fighters and a resistance and the other terrorist savages? Were the native Americans considered terrorists for resisting European settlers and later colonists and the new Americans?

You can’t deny Palestinians a state via a two state solution and make it irrelevant by settler expansion,  then subjugate a people to the point of bad blood and distrust which makes a one state solution also irrelevant as you’ve eroded the trust and fostered terrorism through decades of occupation and oppression.

People saying they stand with Palestine doesn’t mean they stand against Israel - more so they stand with the ending of oppression and apartheid on the Palestinians. It doesn’t mean the eradication of Israel necessarily or of genociding Israelis. 
 

The same heart that wants the Jewish people to have a safe homeland, is the same heart that will feel it unjustified to expel and oppress the natives of that homeland to which they go.

 

The only way in which the current treatment and way of life the Palestinians live can seem okay or justified is if one views them as inferior - a colonialist mindset which unfortunately still remains till today - a remanent of the civilise the savages mindset.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by zazen

[Buck Edwards]

The raw brutality of Israeli army on display. How do Israelis defend this? 

This doesn't sound like compassion to me. 

 

[PurpleTree]

8 hours ago, Thought Art said:

@PurpleTree Does that mean it’s not natural? Hasn’t there been war there in the past? Over the past 75 years hasn’t the world as a whole had wars in its various parts? Does natural mean pleasant? Is stinging ivy not natural because I having not been stung in 75 years and I’m not missing it?

How do you think Western Europe was formed as it was those 75 years if not through war, conflict and its resolution? World War 2?

You could say it’s not necessary because well, much of the world isn’t at war. But, at the same time the whole world deals with conflicts allllllll the time. Basically what survival is.

Yea i was talking about it not being a necessity, there are countries that have been far longer not at war than 75 years

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

apartheid. colonists 

- a colonialist mindset which unfortunately still remains till today -

You love those words huh

was it uncle hasan abi who told you those?

 

6 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Imagine someone saying about Hitler destroying the Jews "I wont pick a side" 

 

6 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

 this literally already happened. Hitler killed a bunch of Jews because he saw them as less than human ..

and you really love the hitler comparisons i see, neat

12 hours ago, Thought Art said:

I think killing innocent civilians is wrong. 

Hot take if i’ve ever seen one

 

 

 

nono you guys are doing great keep it up, it’s just my painbody acting up, not me

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

The raw brutality of Israeli army on display. How do Israelis defend this? 

This doesn't sound like compassion to me. 

 

The security situation in this place is always SO explosive, that I cannot blame any side here do what it understands to balance the situation.

Long term this is true that neither response is not so smart to calm the things down. But just compassion also won't do this because if it was so simple you would not need a security force there to begin with.

This is so complicated that there is an external player needed to manage this thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Waqf

Edited November 18, 2023 by Nivsch

[DawnC]

50 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

The raw brutality of Israeli army on display. How do Israelis defend this? 

This doesn't sound like compassion to me. 

 

Yet another example of the bias of Al Jazeera. Their narrative here is just not grounded in the reality of what is going on. Study the Al-Aqsa situation better, you will be surprised.

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Yet another example of the bias of Al Jazeera

Everything is so simple in their eyes 🤦‍♂️

Edited November 18, 2023 by Nivsch

[DawnC]

Just now, Nivsch said:

Everything is so simple in their eyes 

 In the better case. In the worst case, it is deliberately lying and deceiving.