New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

On 11/16/2023 at 10:19 AM, Jacob Morres said:

@Lila9 are you as concerned about anti-muslim sentiment as  antisemitism? 

How have you opposed anti-Muslim sentiment in ur life? 

Islam is a religion and like many religions it's suffecating, misogynist, hypocratic, self righteous, ignorant.

I have respect to any religion but I don't want any religion to control the world, I don't want to live under Muslim Shriiet, I don't want to be forced to it. I don't like the fact that there are Muslim terrorists like Hamas, ISIS, Muslim Brotherhood who believe that everybody must to be a Muslim and they would kill innocents just because they are not Muslims.or not following Islam rules. This is scary to be surrounded by people who prefer you dead than non-Muslim.

I don't care them practicing Islam peacefully and leave others alone.

In fact, moderate Muslims many times are kind and generous people. The Arab and the Muslim culture has beautiful and intresting aspects in it, if we ignore the toxic and the religious dogma.

I also love the mystical Islam, the Sufism, this is a very wise, beautiful and inspiring for me personally.

But I don't love the fact that the Arab Muslim world doesn't like Jews and Israel, I don't see a rational reason for that, only primitive and religious. I don't understand why they can't allow one Jewish country to exist while they have so many land to be Muslim and practice Islam.

This is the the aspect in Islam that I don't like, the belief that Islam is superior to everything and that everyone should be a Muslim.

They want Europe and America to be that way at the end, they don't appreciate that people have the right and the soverty to believe in what they want to believe and that not believing in Islam doesn't make you some bad person who deserves death.

 

 

 

 

[zazen]

@Nabd Well said. National consciousness wasn’t a thing till Europeans brought it about. Even when the Brits left Africa they drew borders in and between tribal lands which caused much chaos, confusion and infighting over resources.

Palestinians may have not had a nation yet they had a land - the lack of a nation state with a flag doesn’t justify the expulsion and establishment of a nation state with a flag by an outside group. Especially if that nation state is in the name of a minority of that land ie Jewish.

By that logic the massacring of native Indians to establish America was justified - because they didn’t formally have a state with a flag inked in worded documents. Legal doesn’t always mean right. 
 

Native American tribes engaged in conflicts with European settlers and later with the United States as westward expansion occurred. Were they terrorists? Everything the Palestinians do can be framed as aggressive if people omit the base fact that they are occupied.

Edited November 17, 2023 by zazen

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Nabd said:

Multiculturalism is invented by Europeans but lived by middle easterners for thousands of years.

I agree with a lot of your points. Though Multiculturalism in the West is Post-nationalist while in the Middle East, it's pre-nationalistic. The diversity in the Middle East is also much more vulnerable to all kinds of tensions and wars. Being a minority group in the Middle East is definitely not easy. Even though people can live friendly on a day-to-day basis, you can't do away with all the political differences of these groups, and when it comes down to it and tensions erupt they will be more loyal to their subgroup than to the larger country. That's one of the reasons Arab dictators tried so hard to unite their lands by demonizing and blaming everything on Israel. United by common hatred if you will.

Of course, this doesn't work because it takes love to unite. Arabs talk all the time about being brothers but in reality, it's all extremely superficial. An Alawite must feel a real meaningful connection with a Kurd and Sunnis and Shia must care for each other as if they belong to the same people. You don't see this happening in reality and that's why they have no qualms about brutally killing each other in civil wars. So for now the Middle East definitely needs some more stage blue nationalistic uniting. 

Also, I want to make the point Israel might be literally without exaggeration the most diverse country on Earth. The Nakba happened because Jews needed to have their own land. Period. Why should they accept living with Arabs as a minority,  when they treat each other so badly. Furthermore, even before Israel there were massacres of Jews, like the one in Hebron where a "native" Jewish community was attacked in their homes.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Vrubel

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Nabd said:

European nationalism is to wake up everyday and see people wearing the same clothes and speaking the same language and everyone looks similar. This is not how life is in the middle east. You wake up and you see people wearing different clothes and speaking different accents and languages and you don't blink twice. 

 

Not really. There are so many immigrants here now. So many languages when i go on the tram. Different religions, clothes etc

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Islam is a religion and like many religions it's suffecating, misogynist, hypocratic, self righteous, ignorant.

I have respect to any religion but I don't want any religion to control the world, I don't want to live under Muslim Shriiet, I don't want to be forced to it. I don't like the fact that there are Muslim terrorists like Hamas, ISIS, Muslim Brotherhood who believe that everybody must to be a Muslim and they would kill innocents just because they are not Muslims.or not following Islam rules. This is scary to be surrounded by people who prefer you dead than non-Muslim.

I don't care them practicing Islam peacefully and leave others alone.

In fact, moderate Muslims many times are kind and generous people. The Arab and the Muslim culture has beautiful and intresting aspects in it, if we ignore the toxic and the religious dogma.

I also love the mystical Islam, the Sufism, this is a very wise, beautiful and inspiring for me personally.

But I don't love the fact that the Arab Muslim world doesn't like Jews and Israel, I don't see a rational reason for that, only primitive and religious. I don't understand why they can't allow one Jewish country to exist while they have so many land to be Muslim and practice Islam.

This is the the aspect in Islam that I don't like, the belief that Islam is superior to everything and that everyone should be a Muslim.

They want Europe and America to be that way at the end, they don't appreciate that people have the right and the soverty to believe in what they want to believe and that not believing in Islam doesn't make you some bad person who deserves death.

 

 

 

 

I agree and these islamists etc 

often use terms like “anti colonialism” “anti western”

to spread their backwards ideology, they also use things like free speech, right to protest, democracy as tools for their bs

[Danioover9000]

Happy 202 page.

[zazen]

As we love color coding people so much what stage of development is this below:

 

4 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Islam is a religion and like many religions it's suffecating, misogynist, hypocratic, self righteous, ignorant.

I have respect to any religion but I don't want any religion to control the world, I don't want to live under Muslim Shriiet, I don't want to be forced to it. I don't like the fact that there are Muslim terrorists like Hamas, ISIS, Muslim Brotherhood who believe that everybody must to be a Muslim and they would kill innocents just because they are not Muslims.or not following Islam rules. This is scary to be surrounded by people who prefer you dead than non-Muslim.

Israel is a nation and like many nations identifying too much with nationalism can be suffocating, limiting, divisive.  We can respect a nation, but no people should live under oppressive apartheid like conditions. I don't like the fact that there is state terrorism whether it be Western or Eastern. Scary to live in such a world.

There’s no better way to make people want to attack you in whatever way they can than bombing their neighborhoods, killing and displacing their loved ones, and dominating them with an oppressive military occupation. All of which Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for generations.

[PurpleTree]

12 minutes ago, Nabd said:

I agree and of course there were sometimes hatred between different groups of people but I think these tensions never escalated to what Europeans did to each other during the 30 years war for example or even more recent events like wars between European countries or WW1 and WW2. 

Generally speaking people in the middle east rarely fought each other in the way Europeans did until France and UK came and started turning the different groups on each other like supporting minorities and relying on them to control the majorities and the nice thing is that people sometimes were aware of these things for example the first prime minister of Syria was a Christian and he declared "If France won't give us independence because they want to protect Christians, then we will become Muslims".

The Druze of Syria were actually the ones who rebelled against the Ottomans and again against the French in the great Syrian revolt of 1925. They actively sought out to unite Syria and their leader then became a symbol of Syrian identity today and the Druze flags are not seen as a sectarian flag but as a symbol of liberty so as you see these kind of things happened alone without anyone intervening but when Europeans came they actively worked on divide and conquer.

Similar thing happened in Lebanon where the Orthodox community largely opposed the creation of Lebanon as a Christian nation but the French relied heavily on Maronite elites to force the issue so its a mixed bag and it depends on the awareness of the elites at the time but I think it all boils down to major powers exploiting colonies.

That was not the case long ago but in the middle east it is the norm. 

Damascus is known as a city for everyone and even black people were welcome. I don't think it was the same thing in Germany in the 40s for example.

Well yea obviously the middle east is a melting pot between asia, africa and europe because of geography

while europe is a melting pot of other things

[hundreth]

16 hours ago, Sabth said:

After all you've done you think peace is an option? Fuck. I think the Palestinians will only have hatred (and disgust) towards the Israel. 

They will forever be against each other to infinity. Both of them hate each other very much. 

Maybe, but it's not like they were very fond of the Israelis before this.

The reality is that Hamas put Israel in an impossible position. Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't massacre ~1200 Israelis, kidnap 200 and then turn the other cheek. The Middle East is no picnic. A sign of weakness like this will invite many more attacks. You can say what you will about the 2006 Lebanon war, but it has kept Hezbollah and the IDF out of a major conflict for almost 2 decades. The Lebanese do not want to deal with another 2006. It is a deterrent, whether you like it or not.

So now that Israel has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the removal of Hamas. Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens.

[Nivsch]

55 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Maybe, but it's not like they were very fond of the Israelis before this.

The reality is that Hamas put Israel in an impossible position. Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't massacre ~1200 Israelis, kidnap 200 and then turn the other cheek. The Middle East is no picnic. A sign of weakness like this will invite many more attacks. You can say what you will about the 2006 Lebanon war, but it has kept Hezbollah and the IDF out of a major conflict for almost 2 decades. The Lebanese do not want to deal with another 2006. It is a deterrent, whether you like it or not.

So now that Israel has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the removal of Hamas. Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens.

Exactly. The removal of hamas, or at least the recognition of the Gazaians to the davastation hamas caused to them is necessary to make them rethink their value and to discover stage blue.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

52 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Generally speaking people in the middle east rarely fought each other in the way Europeans did until France and UK came and started turning the different groups on each other like supporting minorities and relying on them to control the majorities and the nice thing is that people sometimes were aware of these things for example the first prime minister of Syria was a Christian and he declared "If France won't give us independence because they want to protect Christians, then we will become Muslims".

I see a trend in the Middle East where minority groups generally seem to be more successful than the majority. For example, when Lebanon was predominantly Christian they were very prosperous. Christian Lebanese in the diaspora also tend to be successful, not forming an underbelly like many Muslim immigrants do for example. The Druze have a specific strategy where they are loyal to the main power because as a minority they want to make themselves useful and keep detrimental instability at bay. The Kurds also seemed to organize themselves pretty decent. And Assad is from the small Alawite minority. 

May I ask what group you belong to and what your vision is for Syria?  For Example, should it split up/come together and what should be its attitude to the West and its neighbors?

Edited November 17, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

37 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Maybe, but it's not like they were very fond of the Israelis before this.

The reality is that Hamas put Israel in an impossible position. Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't massacre ~1200 Israelis, kidnap 200 and then turn the other cheek. The Middle East is no picnic. A sign of weakness like this will invite many more attacks. You can say what you will about the 2006 Lebanon war, but it has kept Hezbollah and the IDF out of a major conflict for almost 2 decades. The Lebanese do not want to deal with another 2006. It is a deterrent, whether you like it or not.

So now that Israel has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the removal of Hamas. Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens.

Same logic applied to dating would be for a incel to say its not like women were fond of him so might as well become misogynist which will only make them hate him further.

The reality is that Israel put the Palestinian people in an impossible position.  Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't turn the other cheek at decades of oppression and abuse by the Israeli regime, till you no longer have a cheek. The Middle East is no picnic - exactly why they will not stop resisting occupation and settlement expansion as to not invite more of it. This further is fueled by Islam, which is peaceful for the most part but isn't a pacifist religion either. Likewise, Israel do not want to deal with Hezbollah after failing to defeat them.

So now that Hamas has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the resistance of occupation.Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens.

 

Step 1: Destroy nations and displace tens of millions of people.

Step 2: Wait for some of those people to hate you and want to fight back.

Step 3: Use their desire to fight back as justification to repeat Step 1.

Edited November 17, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

Israel created the barbaric violence of October 7th, in the same way it created the violence that will with absolute certainty come its way in retaliation for its actions in Gaza today. The official narrative makers always try to restart history at the moment of the last act of violence from Palestinians, because it is only by framing such violence as unprovoked that they can legitimize the idea that it’s possible to bomb a population into submission and obedience.

But of course, it is not possible to bomb a population into submission and obedience. Every atrocity you inflict upon them will only increase their desire for revenge — a desire Israelis should sympathize with since it has consumed them and turned them into crazed genocide cheerleaders since October 7. But their desire for vengeance is only made possible by the false mainstream narrative that the attack came from nowhere, completely unprovoked.

The actual crime that Palestinians are being punished for is refusal to submit. That’s all this conflict has ever been, from the very beginning. Palestinians refused to accept being thrown off their land and killed and forcibly displaced at the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, and that refusal has seen them hammered with tremendous amounts of violence and oppression from year to year and from decade to decade under the premise that it’s possible to bomb and tyrannize a population into obedience.

Nothing will radicalize you toward violence faster than seeing your neighbors and loved ones ripped apart by military explosives supplied by a globe-spanning empire. Nothing will ensure further violent resistance more certainly than murdering Palestinian children by the thousands in plain view of everyone. Which means that nothing but restitution, reparations and return of land to the Palestinians will end this nightmare once and for all.

 - Caitlin Johnstone

 

Did you know that since the United States brought its “war on terror” to Africa, terrorist attacks on that continent have increased by 75,000 percent? That’s right: 75, then three zeros, percent. I learned this neat little stat from a new article by journalist Nick Turse, who also notes that “according to the Pentagon, terrorist attacks in the Sahel region alone have resulted in 9,818 deaths — a 42,500% increase.”

People have been documenting the way attempts to bomb terrorism out of existence actually creates more terrorism for many years. In 2010 Professor Robert A Pape wrote an article for Foreign Policy titled “It’s the Occupation, Stupid” about his study with University of Chicago which found that suicide bombings are the result not of Islamic fundamentalism but of foreign military occupations.

Some notable excerpts:

“More than 95 percent of all suicide attacks are in response to foreign occupation.”

“As the United States has occupied Afghanistan and Iraq, which have a combined population of about 60 million, total suicide attacks worldwide have risen dramatically — from about 300 from 1980 to 2003, to 1,800 from 2004 to 2009.”

“Over 90 percent of suicide attacks worldwide are now anti-American.”

“Each month, there are more suicide terrorists trying to kill Americans and their allies in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other Muslim countries than in all the years before 2001 combined. From 1980 to 2003, there were 343 suicide attacks around the world, and at most 10 percent were anti-American inspired. Since 2004, there have been more than 2,000, over 91 percent against U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other countries.”

Edited November 17, 2023 by zazen

[PurpleTree]

22 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel created the barbaric violence of October 7th

🙄 

[Nivsch]

30 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

🙄 

And also created world war 2 because the future affects the past with all the quantum mechanics and all that so this is Israel's fault.

[Vrubel]

@Nabd Damn interesting vision. I hope much of it will be fulfilled. Sadly the harsh reality is different. I think the civil war in Syria was so brutal many Syrians are just relieved that some sense of stability has returned even though the overall political situation seems lost. 

[Lila9]

The last videos of hostages Hamas released, show that the hostages were alive when Hamas took them and Hamas executed them in the captivity. They literally show a person alive in a video and then its dead body.

This is so sick and brutal.

And people literally justify this cruelty and see this as legitimate "resistance".

 

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

The last videos of hostages Hamas released, show that the hostages were alive when Hamas took them and Hamas executed them in the captivity. They literally show a person alive in a video and then its dead body.

This is so sick and brutal.

And people literally justify this cruelty and see this as legitimate "resistance".

👍The devil also do resistance when combating the angle. So did hitler. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

51 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

🙄 

 

You end Hamas by ending their cause. Cut them off from their cause that is a resistance to a structure of oppression and occupation with factions of Islamist and political power hungry opportunists jumping on for the ride.

 

Hamas use the resistance movement the same way bankers use social sentiments of environmental and social causes to drive the ESG movement which perpetuate their power and profits.

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

You end Hamas by ending their cause. Cut them off from their cause that is a resistance to a structure of oppression and occupation with factions of Islamist and political power hungry opportunists jumping on for the ride.

 

Hamas use the resistance movement the same way bankers use social sentiments of environmental and social causes to drive the ESG movement which perpetuate their power and profits.

and how do you end islamists?