New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vercingetorix]

@Karmadhi
Where are you from? do you think you country is more moral than Israel?

if Israel is as moral as Russia, why does in this conflict its Russia who supports Hamas and Ukraine support Israel?

It seems to me that @DawnC is presenting you with many valuable question to help you understand the situation, and it seems to me that you are not interested in understanding the situation but just hating Israel. What hurts you so much?

Edited November 10, 2023 by Vercingetorix

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

For every Hamas member you kill how many do you create?  And if you create more than you kill, you've not succeeded.'' - Elon Musk

This is not always the wise perspective. Sometimes decisive victories can lead to a lasting impact on organizations / societies and to lasting peace. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by DawnC

[Inliytened1]

16 minutes ago, DawnC said:

This is not always the wise perspective. Sometimes decisive victories can lead to a lasting impact on organizations / societies and to lasting peace. 

Elon musk is not known to be wise

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Lila9]

Famous Saudi blogger about Palestinians:

 

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

have seen several videos of terrorists captured on 7/10, it is obvious that they say what they are ordered. They are not in a pleasant situation, they are stupid, how do you go on a suicide mission and allow to be captured?

[randmonzzin]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Famous Saudi blogger about Palestinians:

 

Let's not complicate things, one simple DNA test on both sides will give this discussion a rest. Oh wait It's illegal in Israel. 

 

 

[Yimpa]

Notice how your mind creates all conflict. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. 

Seeing conflict clearly for what it is is the key to letting go of it.

[Merkabah Star]

[DawnC]

14 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

Forms of racism should be eradicated from civilized society, including this one. I think it’s also important to be cautious not to conflate the eradication of racism with sterilizing our discussions by removing any dialogue that involves cultural or societal structural elements.

[Merkabah Star]

Quote

Tens of thousands of Palestinians have fled northern Gaza on foot as Israeli forces push deeper into dense urban neighbourhoods and attack hospitals where residents have been sheltering.

Gaza City has been the focus of Israel’s ground offensive, with fierce battles and air raids reported on Friday in densely populated areas.

A spokesperson for the Israeli army said on Friday more than 100,000 Palestinians have moved from the north to the south of Gaza in the last two days.

A never-ending stream of people including many children, the wounded, and the elderly were seen moving south, mostly on foot, carrying only small backpacks and essential belongings.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/10/israel-says-more-than-100000-palestinians-have-moved-from-the-north-to-the-south-of-gaza-in-the-last-two-days

 

[Leo Gura]

If you set your intention to be truthful and unbiased then racism solves itself.

Notice that this whole Palestine-Israel issue revolves around bias. People are too biased in one way or another to see things clearly or to strike compromises.

Peace requires seeing other perspectives besides your own. War requires seeing only your perspective.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Raze

[Merkabah Star]

France’s Macron urges Israel to stop bombing and killing civilians in Gaza

The French president said he hopes other leaders, including those in Washington, will join him in his call for a ceasefire.

Israel must stop bombing Gaza and killing civilians, French President Emmanuel Macron has told British media.

There was “no justification” for the bombing, Macron told the BBC in an interview published late on Friday, adding that a ceasefire would benefit Israel.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/11/frances-macron-urges-israel-to-stop-bombing-and-killing-civilians-in-gaza

[DawnC]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Peace requires seeing other perspectives besides your own. War requires seeing only your perspective.

In the eyes of the players, sometimes considering all perspectives doesn't necessarily lead to peace. Life here is like a multiplayer game, and not everything is within our control. That's a part of its wonder. When someone is attempting to harm you, understanding their perspective might only make fighting a better choice. That's unless you have given up on your ultimate bias - your own will to exist. In our life here, as we are, we can encounter those with zero desire to see our point of view. There are some out there whose perspective suggests that they would rather die fighting you than to consider your viewpoint. In such cases, when you want to survive, as the biased existing being you are, the will to take action may become the important part. 

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you set your intention to be truthful and unbiased then racism solves itself.

Notice that this whole Palestine-Israel issue revolves around bias. People are too biased in one way or another to see things clearly or to strike compromises.

Peace requires seeing other perspectives besides your own. War requires seeing only your perspective.

Peace only requires cooperation, not deep connection. It is operational based on incentive and personal gain rather than intention and personal trust. It's more of a association rather than a brother/sisterhood alliance.

When each side can't trust the others intention - hidden heart of the other, they can rely on incentives to align and the hidden hand of personal gain to allow their society to at least be operational and civil.

Distrusting everyone's wiser than trusting everyone, but knowing who to trust is superior to both. Good judgement grants the freedom to trust as without judgment you get hurt less by simply assuming everyone is bad - the opportunity cost however is peace, prosperity and passing on the good people among the other side.

The more actively distrusting you are whether as a person or country, the more cautious others are of you - in a sense you only condemn and hurt yourself. This is what Israel does when it shuns world opinion. Netenyahu and his cabinets narcissistic middle finger to the world is its loss.

Using spiral dynamics lingo for this - if you can't trust their state of being, you can rely on structural incentive (state vs structure). The question is what structure of society best incentives both towards peace? A apartheid like structure with unequal rights and a security apparatus that discriminates on a segment of the population definitely doesn't. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by zazen

[Twentyfirst]

The Jews came to Palestine without shoes after the holocaust and the Palestinians took them in and then the Jews turned on them and stole all the riches for themselves. Cant trust them Jews

[DawnC]

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

Distrusting everyone's wiser than trusting everyone, but knowing who to trust is superior to both. 

Netenyahu and his cabinets narcissistic middle finger to the world is its loss.

He is not my cup of tea, but when someone is advising you to trust someone else whom you know isn't trustworthy, you also become suspicious of the person making the suggestion . Perhaps not with ill intentions, but you definitely question their judgment. 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, DawnC said:

He is not my cup of tea, but when someone is advising you to trust someone else whom you know isn't trustworthy, you also become suspicious of the person making the suggestion . Perhaps not with ill intentions, but you definitely question their judgment. 

True, that's why if you can't trust their character, you can at best trust them to pursue their own interest. Not as much need to rely on character, consciousness or stage of development when you can rely on self interest of both parties aligning.

A stage orange person who's money oriented may start a business with a stage green person who's environmentally oriented - the sustainable business and social investing trend. Different values, but they align to cooperate. Even the ESG movement is basically the marrying of the capitalist financiers with the anti-capitalist social liberals. The capitalists still get to make money whilst appeasing and avoiding revolution from the socialists.

Europe established peace after world war by the same means, cooperation and economic interdependence - the deeper connection came later. Likewise the US with its strong navy established the safety of sea lanes and global flow of trade to allow countries to become more dependent on each other which aligned their interests despite their opposing sentiments.

 Even with this conflict, we can see who among the Muslim world is the most and least vocal depends on who is the most interdependent. Saudi is less vocal as they depend on the USA for security. They may not trust USA, but their incentives align - Saudi gets security whilst US gets a stronghold in the region including petrodollar. USA becoming a net energy exporter thanks to shale etc obviously changes that which is why Saudi has to orient towards peace among the region including with Iran.

Turkey has been more vocal because although they do trade a lot with the West, financial ties can more easily be re-oriented away but security not - and security is more of a need over prosperity. Turkey has one of the strongest armies in the region and isn't dependent and left as vulnerable. 

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

The Jews came to Palestine without shoes after the holocaust and the Palestinians took them in and then the Jews turned on them and stole all the riches for themselves. Cant trust them Jews

To see people made refugees is sad, but to see refugees on their own land made refugees once again with whats happening now is appalling. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by zazen

[DawnC]

11 minutes ago, zazen said:

True, that's why if you can't trust their character, you can at best trust them to pursue their own interest. Not as much need to rely on character, consciousness or stage of development when you can rely on self interest of both parties aligning.

A stage orange person who's money oriented may start a business with a stage green person who's environmentally oriented - the sustainable business and social investing trend. Different values, but they align to cooperate. Even the ESG movement is basically the marrying of the capitalist financiers with the anti-capitalist social liberals. The capitalists still get to make money whilst appeasing and avoiding revolution from the socialists.

Europe established peace after world war by the same means, cooperation and economic interdependence - the deeper connection came later. Likewise the US with its strong navy established the safety of sea lanes and global flow of trade to allow countries to become more dependent on each other which aligned their interests despite their opposing sentiments.

 Even with this conflict, we can see who among the Muslim world is the most and least vocal depends on who is the most interdependent. Saudi is less vocal as they depend on the USA for security. They may not trust USA, but their incentives align - Saudi gets security whilst US gets a stronghold in the region including petrodollar. USA becoming a net energy exporter thanks to shale etc obviously changes that which is why Saudi has to orient towards peace among the region including with Iran.

Turkey has been more vocal because although they do trade a lot with the West, financial ties can more easily be re-oriented away but security not - and security is more of a need over prosperity. Turkey has one of the strongest armies in the region and isn't dependent and left as vulnerable. 

I agree. But sometimes finding aligned interests, as you suggest, is not really possible. It's difficult to align interests with someone who is deeply, ideologically, and religiously committed to war for some reason. Sometimes, for example, a society's ultimate goal or leadership's focus is to wage a holy war for a piece of land or to secure living space for their race. For a society to be centered on self-prosperity, constructive elements, and building a community, it necessitates reaching a certain level of responsibility and maturity. The type of interests you are referring to cannot always be easily found.

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

To see people made refugees is sad, but to see refugees on their own land made refugees once again with whats happening now is appalling. 

Somehow they think they are righteous for "allowing" Palestinians to stay. You cant reason with people like that. Thats why you just gotta go to war with them