New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

@DawnC It's a complex situation with a long history of back and forths that will take a lot of time to delve into every detail of. I see wrongs on both sides and a just cause on both also, but for practical purposes we can either discuss the current situation going forward and the general root cause of the issue.

Labels often confine us to the actions associated with those labels more than they liberate us.  Labels are like psychic chains, nationalities are like psychic cages and literal interpretations of religion are like a psychic straitjacket. Each more confining, restricting and stubborn.

Both parties have mutually exclusive claims to the land, divinely legitimized by their religions. It's very hard to negotiate over land that is claimed holy by both sides, especially in the case of Jerusalem and the site of Al Aqsa. Wishful thinking would be for either or both of them to discard religion and give away parts of the land, but even non religious people have land disputes. What makes it harder is that it's a small piece of land with limited resources, and we expect both parties who feel entitled to this land to negotiate over this.  

The peace proposals never admitted full sovereignty to the Palestinians, the security apparatus from Israels side that they insisted on setting up in Palestine feels intrusive and could at any time creep towards authoritarian - as has been confirmed by whats happening in the West Bank. This nullifies a two state solution defined by Israel that wishes to 'occupy' the Palestinian side with some form of security to thwart any future terrorism - including the plans to handle Gaza indefinetley as Netenyahu is saying. They will not be governed peacefully by a regime that just bombarded their homes and killed their loved ones. 

If people are tamed  like animals - every movement, thought and action - they will lash out like such for the freedom to be human again. To add insult to injury, this is not only done in a random land but on their own home land which humiliates them further and only adds to an angered resistance that eventually erupts.

*Solutions*

Genocide by expulsion won't work as they will only plot their return from slightly further away (Egypt or Jordan), two state won't work because no side is willing to capitulate to what they feel entitlement to, one state governed by Israel won't work because they have shown to abuse their position of power by being complicit in settlement expansion and unequal rights. That leaves a one state solution ideally a secular state with equal rights for all or possibly a Lebanon style system where each side is given positions of power equally in governing the country. In practice, a quasi one state already exists with Israel controlling Gaza, and occupying the West Bank. Is it feasible though? Are both sides willing to work for this? I'm not sure after all thats happened, but if Jews are able to live within Europe and especially in Germany where Nazi's once industrially massacred them, then hopefully they can live together and put the past aside.

Edited November 9, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Loveeee said:

Zionists gonna zionize 

But Leo should know better

Lets just put them in an artifical mental frame and then we don't have to think they are humen and moral like us. 

So from today on I will call the mexican people salsaians. Ohh how weird they are.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Lets just put them in an artifical mental frame and then we don't have to think they are humen and moral like us. 

So from today on I will call the mexican people salsaians.

Zionists aren't human. They are gods lol here to rule over us all. For our betterment of course

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Zionists aren't human. They are gods lol here to rule over us all. For our betterment of course

Shame on them. How dare them trying to deffend themselves from 7 huge arab countries.

[Twentyfirst]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Shame on them. How dare them trying to deffend themselves from 7 huge arab countries.

If they really are sent by god and the rest of us are animals like they claim...then why the worry? They will be fine. If god wrote that it is their land then it will be theres. It is the prophecy after all 

[Nivsch]

30 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

If they really are sent by god and the rest of us are animals like they claim...then why the worry? They will be fine. If god wrote that it is their land then it will be theres. It is the prophecy after all 

I have never heard even one Israeli in all the 36 years I live here who thinks what you just wrote. Sounds very crazy.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Sucuk Ekmek]

Interesting stuff

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/

[Hsinav]

29 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Interesting stuff

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/

Lol this source seems to be very objective! Advertises hamas literature!

Edited November 9, 2023 by Hsinav

[Sucuk Ekmek]

20 minutes ago, Hsinav said:

Lol this source seems to be very objective! Advertises hamas literature!

I don't know if it's x or y literature Luckly I wasn't there.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

This is getting interesting Belgium wants sanctions against Israel. Looks like USA is loosing influence.

https://www.reuters.com/world/belgium-wants-sanctions-against-israel-gaza-bombings-deputy-pm-2023-11-08/

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

The peace proposals never admitted full sovereignty to the Palestinians, the security apparatus from Israels side that they insisted on setting up in Palestine feels intrusive and could at any time creep towards authoritarian - as has been confirmed by whats happening in the West Bank. This nullifies a two state solution defined by Israel that wishes to 'occupy' the Palestinian side with some form of security to thwart any future terrorism - including the plans to handle Gaza indefinetley as Netenyahu is saying. They will not be governed peacefully by a regime that just bombarded their homes and killed their loved ones. 

There are obvious reasons for Israelis to fear immediate "full sovereignty" to the Palestinians. 

Would you be opposed to a pathway to sovereignty with a specified timeline and conditions which build trust over time? Let's say for example 5 years. Recognizing Israel. Minimal attacks. Terrorists jailed. Etc. Obviously Israel would need to abide by a set of conditions specified by Palestinians as well.

[hundreth]

9 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

This is getting interesting Belgium wants sanctions against Israel. Looks like USA is loosing influence.

https://www.reuters.com/world/belgium-wants-sanctions-against-israel-gaza-bombings-deputy-pm-2023-11-08/

Quote

At the same time, she said, Belgium should increase funding for the International Criminal Court in The Hague to investigate the bombings while cutting money flows to Hamas.

“This is a terrorist organization. Terror costs money and there must be sanctions on the companies and people who provide Hamas with money," De Sutter said. With the war now entering its second month, UN officials and G7 nations stepped up appeals for a humanitarian pause in the hostilities to help alleviate the suffering in Gaza, where buildings have been flattened and basic supplies are running out. Palestinian officials say more than 10,000 people have been killed, 40% of them children.

Lol I have a feeling this help Israel more than harm it when all is said and done.

[Nivsch]

1. Yes but It doesn't justify a promil of its actions.

2. Yes the palestinians have suffered from this conflict what has caused radicalization, but that wouldn't happen without their initial tendency to be that way, even before Israel, what we can see in the mufti of jerusalem and his values that were similar to hamas's, and probably reflect some part of the population that lived here. All of that even before the "help" from Israel.

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

many are orphans whose parents were killed by Israel. Meanwhile IDF soldiers are usually first world boys who never had any pain come from them from Gaza

Not true. More than 1,100 Israeli citizens had been murdered during 2nd intifada in early 00's by hamas terrorists from west bank mainly but not only.

3. Agree

4. But Israel attacks in Gaza almost always only after being provoked and Israel has never declared it has a goal to eliminate the palestinians but hamas did declare it wants to eliminate Israel. I think the Jews established Israel are in one way occupiers but not less than that if not even more - refugees. therefore the picture is very complex.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Alex M]

On 08/11/2023 at 10:07 AM, Twentyfirst said:

It's an ethnic cleansing

You don't understand what ethnic cleansing is. Go and read about the Khmer Rouge, the War in Bosnia, Sudan in the late 80s, the Hutu in Rwanda, Congo Civil War. This will give you a much deeper insight into what ethnic cleansing looks like.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Alex M

[DawnC]

7 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@DawnC  @Nivsch @DawnC I dont think any sane person would say that Hamas fighters are more humane than the IDF, however there are factors to consider.

1. Hamas is way weaker so it will be more ruthless.

2. Hamas fighters have suffered a lot under Israel so they have reasons to be ruthless, many are orphans whose parents were killed by Israel. Meanwhile IDF soldiers are usually first world boys who never had any pain come from them from Gaza so their brutality is a lot less justifiable.

3. Israel is more educated, more developed society so their brutality is less acceptable. We hold them on higher standards.

4. Israel is an occupier and therefore its aggresson is seen as more unfair than Hamas agression which is that of the occupied fighting back (although inhumanely).

I dont know what you think on these points.

I think that these points are routed in two misconceptions.

Essentially, I think that you believe that the root cause of Palestinian aggression is the situation with Israel, and you think Israel has the power to solve it due to their position of strength. I don't think that's true at all. First of all, you have to consider the possibility that Palestinian society and leadership don't want peace and they don't want anything that will maintain the state of Israel. Westerners have difficulty grasping this, but the reality is that some cultures actually embrace violence and some societies actually value war and even the killing of the innocent. Westerners tend to think that 'everybody just wants to have peace' or 'everybody is like us because we are all human.' This is a fundamental misconception. Yes, we are all human. So was Stalin, and so was Saddam Hussein. The Mongols and Nazis were also human. That doesn't mean that they didn't value genocide or brutal raiding and territorial expansion.

The second thing is, that I know it makes sense to claim that Israel's control radicalizes them, and if Israel didn't control them, this wouldn't happen. I just don't think that's entirely true. And I think there is nothing worse for Palestinian society than self-governing. The situation will deteriorate into something like what happened in Syria or Yemen. Take a look for example at Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. The Palestinian society is no different (in fact, it's worse). Consider also the internal conflict between Hamas and the PLO in 2006. The events of the past 100 years suggest that this is a deeply ingrained aspect of Palestinian society. They exhibit violent behavior, not just towards Israel but towards themselves. And this pattern persists no matter what happens with Israel. Regardless of whether Israel had a state or not, regardless if in was during the occupation or not, before and after Israel left Gaza. This violent mentality has persisted. I think there is nothing that Israel can do, within the realm of reason that will not result in their own existential serious risk, which would change this fundamental issue. I'm not saying it can't change, but there is no indication from the past century that this change is foreseeable. Israel can make wise or unwise policy choices, but the power to fundamentally resolve this issue is beyond their reach. 

The second misconception is the belief that understanding someone's perspective implies the need to appease them. I can understand why Germany descended into Nazism after WWI. The Treaty of Versailles humiliated them, there were dire economic conditions, and some other factors. But that doesn't mean their regime wasn't utterly barbaric and didn't need to be dealt with using force. You see, when someone is at your door with a rifle, intent on brutally killing you and your family, you kill them. Afterwards you can investigate if he had a difficult childhood. That is what any reasonable, life-cherishing actor would do.

Some more specific points:

1.I understand what you're saying. But historically, it wasn't always the case. Jews endured a Holocaust and did not commit such atrocities systematically. 

2. + 3. Israelis have endured ongoing terror attacks since the establishment of their state, including many suicide bombings and tens of thousands of rockets targeted at the civilian population over the years (imagine growing up with the constant sound of rocket alarms). Terrorism has a profound effect on a society (consider 9/11 as an extreme example). For many years, their state also faced a genuine survival challenge. This is not a walk in the park, and it profoundly impacts a society. In any case, in reality, they are actually much less ruthless (much much less) and much more inclined towards seeking peace (much much more). This is not solely a consequence of the power imbalance btw. These differing moral standards were present before 1948.

4. I don't see it that way because I believe that historical decisions made by the Palestinians have led to the current situation, making it nearly unavoidable. In my view, a society that initiated war and subsequently lost it is not in a position to dictate the terms. And when they continue with violence, they shouldn't be viewed as the victims (and thus I don't view the Israelis as the aggressors). 

Anyway, of course I hold Israel to a higher standard because it is a liberal democracy. But I understand the very difficult military situation they are facing, and I recognize Hamas's manipulation of numbers and civilian statistics, as well as militant tactics that deliberately endanger civilians. I also acknowledge that in any conflict, atrocities unfortunately occur. In relative terms, I believe Israel is acting reasonably. They are not intentionally targeting civilians. They are allowing them to evacuate. And yes, they are determined to neutralize Hamas's militant capabilities and secure the release of their hostages. This is war, and it's not a pleasant situation.

Edited November 9, 2023 by DawnC

[Loveeee]

47 minutes ago, DawnC said:

4. I don't see it that way because I believe that historical decisions made by the Palestinians have led to the current situation, making it nearly unavoidable. In my view, a society that initiated war and subsequently lost it is not in a position to dictate the terms. And when they continue with violence, they shouldn't be viewed as the victims (and thus I don't view the Israelis as the aggressors). 

 

[DawnC]

35 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

 

@Loveeee

Memes aside, What I wrote genuinely reflects my perspective. I believe it's neither superficial nor rooted in ignorance or prejudice. If you have a mature counter perspective, I'm all ears.

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

But Israel attacks in Gaza almost always only after being provoked and Israel has never declared it has a goal to eliminate the palestinians but hamas did declare it wants to eliminate Israel. I think the Jews established Israel are in one way occupiers but not less than that if not even more - refugees. therefore the picture is very complex.

You need to understand that in the eyes of Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and even most of Western liberals Israel started this by kicking out 750.000 Palestinians and murdering many during the Nakba. EVERYTHING after that is a response to it.

If you steal my house then do not be suprised if I attack you back, I am not provocing you. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=nakba+territory+loss&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjR4MnbgriCAxU53wIHHffRABkQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=nakba+territory+loss&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoHCAAQigUQQzoFCAAQgAQ6BggAEAgQHjoICAAQgAQQsQM6CQgAEAgQHhDHAzoECAAQHjoHCAAQGBCABFCgBljKJmCYJ2gCcAB4AIABUIgBhgiSAQIyM5gBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=i2RNZZHvIbm-i-gP96ODyAE&bih=739&biw=1536&rlz=1C1GCEU_enBE1021BE1021#imgrc=HdcFBp_OeyH9PM

All the territory taken by Israel after 1947 UN creating Israel which the world agreed upon (mostly) is pure theft and people have the right to be angry about it.

You can make the argument that the Jews should have a state there but the territory granted to you by the UN is that of 1947, any territory on top of that is land you stole illegally. Kicking out 750.000 people is proof of that. You do not kick out that many people if the land is actually yours.

 

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, DawnC said:

nd yes, they are determined to neutralize Hamas's militant capabilities and secure the release of their hostages.

Killing 50 civilians for 1 Hamas fighter death is not acceptable and is barbaric. It reminds me of Stalin who said once: "If we kill 50 people and 1 of them is an enemy of the state then we did a good job". That is the level Israel has fallen into. Sad.

You need to think why the support for Palestine is so big and growing especially among educated western liberals. Why UN said that Israel is commiting a ton of war crimes. Why many governments even in the West (Ireland, Spain, even Belgium today) are saying Israel is going too far and they should be punished. 

Say whatever you want but if half the people you kill are kids, 10000% innocent kids, you are doing a shit job.

Israel is basically devolving into Russia level of warfare conducting. Mass shelling civilians, cutting out electricity, water etc.

They will for sure become the most hated country in the world by the end of the year. I wonder how will that actually make Jews around the world feel safe (quoting Leo here).

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, DawnC said:

In relative terms, I believe Israel is acting reasonably

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing

Focusing on destruction not precision is the issue here. If they focused on precision and not destruction then I would understand. But if your official spokeperson of the army says this then how can I argue with him? They admit it.