New War In Israel / Gaza

[DawnC]

@zazen

We already know that we disagree on that, but I genuinely wonder: what's your view of the time before '48 regarding the Jewish perspective? Do you find it inconceivably wrong in your view? If so, Why? What would you do before '48 if you were responsible for the situation (as a UN outsider)? Would you advocate for separation? How do you perceive the 1948 war? How do you view the militant, violent course the Palestinians took in '47? And what, in your opinion, should have been the Jewish response to that?

And if you want to elaborate - How do you view the time period from '48 to '67? What are your thoughts on the peace proposals suggested by Israel since 67'? And what is your opinion on the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip? What do you believe would be a wise and reasonable move for Israel moving forward giving what we have seen so far? 

Edited November 9, 2023 by DawnC

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Palestinians have tried all avenues. Proposals and deals were always unjust and didn't meet the basic requirements of the Palestinians (for example no control of their Jordan border for at least 15 years),

I think Olmert's and Barack's offers were more than fair, considering they had lost multiple wars and continued to insist on violent approaches. But in your opinion, what would constitute a fair offer?

1 hour ago, zazen said:

they tried peaceful protest in 2018 with the march of return - IDF shot at disabled people, medics, journalists and children. What their left with is a violent resistance in the end.

Those were not peaceful protests. They involved throwing stones, Molotov cocktails, and explosive charges (and rockets on civilian populations from time to time to spice things up). And even if they were peaceful, those marches originated from Gaza after Israel withdrew from the area. Do you believe that marching on the border of a sovereign state by the thousands is a peaceful move?

Edited November 9, 2023 by DawnC

[lina]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

To say that is simplistic. Hamas rules in Gaza and has committed actions that amount to an unambiguous declaration of total war. They have gotten exactly that, war, and war is savage and horrible. War is a universal human constant, if you want to understand humans you have to understand war. The children are not to blame for this, but war respects no one. The reality is that if the war starts, it must be won, and other considerations take a backseat.

Israel, a country of 10 million inhabitants, lives surrounded by countries of hundreds of millions of inhabitants who want its destruction. It makes no difference if for you Israel should not exist. exists, and will fight to continue doing so, and to do so it will do whatever is necessary, like every entity that exists.

Israel on the other hand has been actively eating up all Palestinian territories, isn't illegal occupation a reason to declare war? What do you suggest the Palestinians should do? do you expect them to just tie their hands and watch Israel taking their lands piece by piece? Sure, war is war and war is justifiable in some cases, but only in self-defense. Israel's is not entitled for this position, therefore, waging a war will never ever solve this problem. Even if they managed to exterminate Gaza, the reputation and image of this country and its citizens will be covered in blood for ages to come, I don't think this is a good for Israelis or Jews worldwide. 

[Twentyfirst]

40 minutes ago, zazen said:

Most people aren't calling for the elimination of Israel - just the current form it takes in the way it persecutes the Palestinians - and to give them the rights and dignity on their own home land which they share.

 

Why should the Palestinians have to share their own land with Israel though? That too doesn't make sense 

[Twentyfirst]

27 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Zionists gonna zionize 

But Leo should know better

Maybe he's falling into the same trap the rest of the world falls into. Trying to sweep Palestinians under the rug in hopes of reaching a solution when really thats been the problem all along. He acknowledged that the Palestinians can't simply be swept under the rug though so I will give him that but its just too easy to fall into that trap even if you know its there

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, lina said:

Israel on the other hand has been actively eating up all Palestinian territories, isn't illegal occupation a reason to declare war?

Agree with that, but the fact is that if you declare the war, you will get war. But perhaps this will be beneficial in the long term for the Palestinians, we do not live in a savage world of the law of the strongest, but there are pressures of another type. The whole world is watching and demanding a solution that is as just and peaceful as possible, and when the war ends, it is very possible that Palestine will achieve an end to the illegal occupation and an improvement in its status, but that will be at the cost of the current sacrifice of the loss of thousands of civilian lives.

Palestine cannot do anything else and Israel cannot do anything else. After this the only sensible option is to forget the past and look forward, we will see if it is possible that they do it

[Twentyfirst]

 

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Agree with that, but the fact is that if you declare the war, you will get war. But perhaps this will be beneficial in the long term for the Palestinians, we do not live in a savage world of the law of the strongest, but there are pressures of another type. The whole world is watching and demanding a solution that is as just and peaceful as possible, and when the war ends, it is very possible that Palestine will achieve an end to the illegal occupation and an improvement in its status, but that will be at the cost of the current sacrifice of the loss of thousands of civilian lives.

Palestine cannot do anything else and Israel cannot do anything else. After this the only sensible option is to forget the past and look forward, we will see if it is possible that they do it

Don't complain when you get hurt

[lina]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

But perhaps this will be beneficial in the long term for the Palestinians

I understand your point, but I still think this wishful thinking. The situation in the west bank is enough to check Israel's intentions. Also, the percentage of Palestinians who were open to the idea of peace with Israel will probably go down to zero by now. 

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, lina said:

I understand your point, but I still think this wishful thinking. The situation in the west bank is enough to check Israel's intentions. Also, the percentage of Palestinians who were open to the idea of peace with Israel will probably go down to zero by now. 

When he said that it could be beneficial for Palestinians it's just a snarky underhanded way of saying "we are so superior to them and everything we touch is gold, that even when we beat them down its better than anything they can do on their own"

Gotta have that Israeli translator in mind 

But if you say that killing 1400 civilian's is good for Israel he's brain wont be able to handle it

[Karmadhi]

@DawnC  @Nivsch @DawnC I dont think any sane person would say that Hamas fighters are more humane than the IDF, however there are factors to consider.

1. Hamas is way weaker so it will be more ruthless.

2. Hamas fighters have suffered a lot under Israel so they have reasons to be ruthless, many are orphans whose parents were killed by Israel. Meanwhile IDF soldiers are usually first world boys who never had any pain come from them from Gaza so their brutality is a lot less justifiable.

3. Israel is more educated, more developed society so their brutality is less acceptable. We hold them on higher standards.

4. Israel is an occupier and therefore its aggresson is seen as more unfair than Hamas agression which is that of the occupied fighting back (although inhumanely).

I dont know what you think on these points.

[Breakingthewall]

21 minutes ago, lina said:

Also, the percentage of Palestinians who were open to the idea of peace with Israel will probably go down to zero by now. 

And then what will be your solution? A war solution is not going to bring them anything, a peaceful compromise is necessary that is respected by both parties.

I already know that Israel has not respected and expanded in the West Bank, with the excuse that they have been attacked again and again, and it is also true that the settlers want the great Israel. The reality is that Israel is strong and Palestine is weak. The only asset that Palestine has left is international mediation, and after this war this will have more weight, Israel must respect the limits or be seen as a tyrant.

We say that Hamas' aggression is caused by expansion in the West Bank, but is this true? If there were no expansion in the West Bank, would Hamas be peaceful? I doubt it. The Palestinians must accept the existence of Israel, and if they do not...their future will be dark. Yes yes, ok, Israel should not be there, we can repeat that a thousand times, but Israel is there.

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Hamas fighters have suffered a lot under Israel so they have reasons to be ruthless,

The question would be: What did Hamas hope to achieve with its action?

[Karmadhi]

@Breakingthewall Provoke Israel to over react and Israel did that. Now Israel reputation (also the USA) is lowest its even been. The world is mad at them. Anti Semitism around the world is on the rise. Also a lot more sympathy for Palestine and a two state solution is now being discussed which was out of the question.

Lastly it is a desperate attempt for Arab support on the Palestinian cause which was almost gone. Saudi Arabia siging the treaty with Israel would be the death of Palestine. These guys are nationalists, they see it from a nationalistic perspective not humanitarian.

So if 20.000 Palestinians need to be sacrificed for Palestine to still exist they will do it.

A humanitarian liberal cares about preservation of life firstly, not preservation of a "state".

Edited November 9, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

@Breakingthewall Provoke Israel to over react and Israel did that. Now Israel reputation (also the USA) is lowest its even been. The world is mad at them. Anti Semitism around the world is on the rise. Also a lot more sympathy for Palestine and a two state solution is now being discussed which was out of the question.

Lastly it is a desperate attempt for Arab support on the Palestinian cause which was almost gone. Saudi Arabia siging the treaty with Israel would be the death of Palestine. These guys are nationalists, they see it from a nationalistic perspective not humanitarian.

So if 20.000 Palestinians need to be sacrificed for Palestine to still exist they will do it.

A humanitarian liberal cares about preservation of life firstly, not preservation of a "state".

Agree with that, probably it was a wise movement. But israel can't react weakly after that. They have to show that you can't attack them without consequences, but the Israeli society will become aware that he cannot abuse the Palestinians any more. That's why I think peace is possible after this.

For Palestinians, pride is worth more than life, for Israelis their security and permanence are worth more than anything else. The two will find a middle ground where they can understand each other, but if one of them shows weakness, the other will continue pushing. That is why this current situation is positive from a political point of view, although obviously negative if you are a patient in a hospital that is bombed.

 

[Karmadhi]

@Breakingthewall

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

pride is worth more than life

Not pride but land and their cause. It is the typical nationalism which you also find in Ukraine. They are willing to sacrifice all their youth as long as the country does not get occupied by Russia. Most wars in history are fought over land.

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but if one of them shows weakness, the other will continue pushing.

That is true. Both their governments are extreme nationalists. Both got to go IMO.

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That is why this current situation is positive from a political point of view

I feel like Israel is being  hurt way more politically because their appearances are a lot more important to them. Hamas was already a terrorist organization while Israel was not. Now both are being treated as such in the eyes of a lot of people. Although Israel from a humaniatrian perspective is not hurt a lot its reputation is taking a huge blow. Combine it with a rise in anti semitism around the world. And there was plenty of it even before this.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Breakingthewall]

27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Not pride but land and their cause. It is the typical nationalism which you also find in Ukraine. They are willing to sacrifice all their youth as long as the country does not get occupied by Russia. Most wars in history are fought over land.

In that case I only see pride because Russia is not going to expel them from their land, it is only going to change the government for another at their convenience. The Ukrainians would continue living in their lands, and now they are devastated and they are exiled. It was stupid to push Russia that way. In the case of Palestine yes, it is different, they can be expelled, the cultural differences are complete, they are two different ethnicities. 

27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

feel like Israel is being  hurt way more politically because their appearances are a lot more important to them

Agree, Israel loses this war, even if it ends Hamas. But they still have to do it until the end. Hamas sacrifices itself to achieve its objective.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[PurpleTree]

because of hamas and islamists i hope there won’t be a palestinian state

but because of non islamist palestinians and not affiliated with hamas people i hope there will be a palestinian state

 

[Twentyfirst]

8 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

because of hamas and islamists i hope there won’t be a palestinian state

but because of non islamist palestinians and not affiliated with hamas people i hope there will be a palestinian state

 

I remind you

Half of Gaza are children bro 

[PurpleTree]

I heard a turkish imam say

(i think the main imam in turkey)

“Jerusalem is muslim and it will alwayssssss be muslim“

crowd cheering