Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: They are only refugees after they are kicked out I want to ask you to read this ⬇️ and add anything you know and want to the discussion. Just using slogans won't help the discussion and that I can also do. On 6.11.2023 at 3:01 PM, Nivsch said: The education here is about the war of indepenence. I think the awareness to the problems Jews did to arabs in this war is highly partial because honestly I also wasn't aware until recent years. You can add things you know, but from what I know and read, the arabs were the side that resist co-existing the most, and started in 1947 the war after the UN's distribution plan has been published. Can we assume that if the arabs were just accept the UN plan, and did nothing, so there would be nothing? Just to think about that. The vast majority of arabs abandoned their homes by themselves what doesnt make the situation good because they felt trauma anyway. The jews were quite deffensive at the beggining, and only after their survival and existance was really threatened to a critical point, only then they started to actively conquer lands and not always in moral ways. But yes, during this war there were active deportations of arabs from their homes but I read that most of the deportations were because the arabs resisted in violence in the first place, but not always. The question is - did the jews came here and just started a violence or let the people evacuate by themselves? Even if the answer is the latter, it still doesnt make it good because deportation is deportation. But again, the active deportations were most likely most of them only after the jews were almost been killed according to what I wrote above assuming this is the full picture. So I assume I can smell who is the (much?) more problematic side here and it is not the jews. But maybe I am biased. Add things from your own knowledge if you want. Edited November 8, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Leo Gura said: If you can't win a war then you don't get a state. That's the way things work. This is not kindergarten. Survival of the fittest Anything goes then No space, no time, nothing but you/this/here/now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 15 minutes ago, Nivsch said: I want to ask you to read this ⬇️ and add anything you know and want to the discussion. Just using slogans won't help the discussion and that I can also do. This discussion is pointless. Talking on a forum never changed anything. Although I do enjoy the learning experience I read what you wrote The Israelis had to teach their children that they found a "land without people". Making it seem like it was just open for grabs when really there was an entire population with their own culture, food, distinct clothing, way of life Palestinians were told to leave and were promised they could return which is why they still have the key to their homes till this day I don't know much about some voluntarily leaving It's okay to resist if someone else gives away what you claim to be your land to another group. Just because the UN says its okay doesn't mean that the Palestinians resisting is automatically a violent offense against Jews If the UN says that then why does Israel disobey the UN by breaking so many international laws? Gaza and the West Bank are open air prisons for decades now and have inhumane conditions. Israel is pure evil Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 10 minutes ago, Loveeee said: Survival of the fittest Anything goes then If it spreads to a regional war and then a World War I am sure people will regret this mindset. Lack of freedom for one is lack of freedom for all Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said: Sure, But Israel not only wants to end Hamas, it also wants to show its many enemies that if attacked, it will respond with extreme harshness. If you live surrounded by enemies you cannot show weakness or softness. Agree with you this is a big part of the considertions. 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) @Twentyfirst Doesn't it fair to divide the land almost equally between two populations that both have fair claims on it? 28 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: breaking so many international laws? Can you explain it? 28 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: Gaza and the West Bank are open air prisons for decades How so? Israel completely left Gaza in 2005 allowing them to do whatever they want. Why is the West Bank a prison in your opinion? 28 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: have inhumane conditions Because of whom? because of hamas. Why you so hate Israel? BTW from where are you? Edited November 8, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Nivsch said: @Twentyfirst Doesn't it fair to divide the land almost equally between two populations that both have fair claims on it? Do you have a girlfriend? If so can I have sex with her on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. You can have four nights and I will only take three. That way you win 3 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Can you explain it? No, I am not gonna repeat myself over and over. Its all very well documented 3 minutes ago, Nivsch said: How so? Israel completely left Gaza in 2005 allowing them to do whatever they want. Why is the West Bank a prison in your opinion? You should have gone and seen for yourself 3 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Because of whom? because of hamas. And why you so hate Israel? BTW from where are you? I don't hate Israel. But my opinion is that they have a giant black hole instead of a heart. Thats my opinion I already said I don't care if Israel exists I only care that it exists literally on top of other people. And you know what I think I am right. Doesn't sound fun living by people who literally hate you I think you know where I am from Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sucuk Ekmek said: Your political leader is comedy, he is a political leader because he already let 1000 people die, doesn't matter which side anyways. No political leader is perfect. Of course people die. The question is how best to prevent further deaths. Simplistically blaming leaders for Hamas attacks is childish. Regardless of the Israeli leadership, Hamas will continue to do its terrorist attacks. 2 hours ago, Nivsch said: Leo but from where did you get the 1:100 ratio? The IDF themselves have basically admitted to bombing an entire refugee center to kill a single Hamas battalion commander. I'm not saying that ratio is the typical ratio. But the IDF seems fine with such a ratio, which is the issue. I've seen the civilian death rate estimated to be 93% in Gaza. Quote Because the estimated number of hamas terrorists who have been killed within the land of gaza strip is 3000-4000 according to IDF. I am not going to trust those numbers. We need receipts if such numbers are going to be claimed. 2 hours ago, Twentyfirst said: You can find people still alive today that were kicked out of the homes they were living in. I won't say kicked out of their land but we know for a fact out of their homes and sent away. Yes, Palestinians have been kicked out of their homes. But that's what happens when you don't have a proper solid state. Anyone can come along and kick you out. That's why a state is needed with a military. Quote Israel was defined by an outside entity aka the British. Yes, the British controlled that area through military power and they gave it over to Israeli's. That's how geopolitics works after a war. The victors of the war get to decide who gets how much land. If you don't agree with it you can go to war with the British and after you defeat them, you can set your terms and divide the land however you feel like. War has stakes. Those who win wars get land and those who lose wars lose lands. Again, this isn't kindergarten. If Palestinians wanted to keep their land they should have gone to war with the British and blocked them from giving it over to Israel. But that time has long passed. 2 hours ago, _Archangel_ said: @Leo Gura Most war analyst agree that bombing isn't the most effective way to cancel Hamas. The thing is, the way the operation are carried really make poeple wonder whether Israel wants to actrually destroy Hamas or intentionally kill civilians. There's no mystery about it. If Israel did a ground invasion without all this massive bombing, they would incur 10000s of casualties as Hamas ambushes them in the urban jungle. This bombing is softening Hamas up so they are unable to do massive damage to the IDF once the land invasion begins. Yes, destroying infrastructure in Gaza significantly cripples Hamas, even if it does not kill them directly. After a few months of bombing Hamas will be on its last legs from lack of supplies. This is like a medieval siege. In a medieval siege the enemy was surrounded and starved out over a period of 6-12 months. After months of bombing Hamas fighters will be so famished, resource-starved, and fatigued that they will not be able to fire a rifle accurately. That is the strategy here. Israel's goal now is to avoid losing 10,000 IDF soldiers in Gaza to ambush attacks. Edited November 8, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: Do you have a girlfriend? If so can I have sex with her on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. You can have four nights and I will only take three. That way you win I am not sure I understood the analogy. 39 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: You should have gone and seen for yourself Oslo greement tried to make them quite independent what made the terror worse with suicide bombs in Israeli cities twice a week! Israel should have go in there from new and conquer parts of the west bank. It seems to me you don't want to discuss seriously so unless you explain more I stop here. I dont know why you feel this hatred and I dont remember from where you are. You can share if you want but I think you just want to argue. Edited November 8, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) @Nivsch They left in 2005 but not completely. Control of borders, air space, sea and essentials such as food/water which can be leveraged against them at any time is not completely leaving. It may not be a death camp, but its close enough to a concentration camp. You said you think the protests are waking up the world to see how violent and stupid the people within them are but its in fact the opposite. There are some extremists but that's a very small minority. The protests are peaceful and people are waking up to the inhumane conditions the Palestinians have been suffering for decades and even questioning why their governments fund/support Israel including many Jews. By law it is the occupied people who have a right to resist, even the right to armed resistance. If people want to keep going back in history to a time when their ancestors once lived in such and such land then we can all go back to many different lands including Africa where humans originated and claim all the resource riches as a bonus. Edited November 8, 2023 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 36 minutes ago, zazen said: @Nivsch They left in 2005 but not completely. Control of borders, air space, sea and essentials such as food/water which can be leveraged against them at any time is not completely leaving. It may not be a death camp, but its close enough to a concentration camp. You have to really consider if any other option is possible given a terror organization regime in the place who TAKES gazaian's resources to himself as much as possible, and of course wants to destruct Israel. Whould you valunteer to give it also free air and water spaces? how naive the critisizm of Israel can be. This is so easy to make those absurd claims from thousands of miles away. Also ask yourself If they even have the ability to supply themselves with many of these things and in the proper amount. The southern border is controlled by Egypt by the way. Ask them why they are so afraid to get gazaians into their land. maybe they understand the situation even better than Israel. 36 minutes ago, zazen said: concentration camp Slogans I can also drop to the air and it will sound very convincing I promise you 🌈 Edited November 8, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Yes, Palestinians have been kicked out of their homes. But that's what happens when you don't have a proper solid state. Anyone can come along and kick you out. That's why a state is needed with a military. It has been centuries since a nation has been conquered with the intention of expelling its inhabitants. It has been conquered in colonialism, to have the political power of foreign countries, but the expulsion of a nation for a Western power I would say has not occurred since the Native Americans Edited November 8, 2023 by Breakingthewall Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Leo Gura said: There's no mystery about it. If Israel did a ground invasion without all this massive bombing, they would incur 10000s of casualties as Hamas ambushes them in the urban jungle. This bombing is softening Hamas up so they are unable to do massive damage to the IDF once the land invasion begins. Yes, destroying infrastructure in Gaza significantly cripples Hamas, even if it does not kill them directly. After a few months of bombing Hamas will be on its last legs from lack of supplies. This is like a medieval siege. In a medieval siege the enemy was surrounded and starved out over a period of 6-12 months. After months of bombing Hamas fighters will be so famished, resource-starved, and fatigued that they will not be able to fire a rifle accurately. That is the strategy here. Israel's goal now is to avoid losing 10,000 IDF soldiers in Gaza to ambush attacks. How come when Russia did similar things in Mauripol during its siege everyone lost their shit and called them "war criminals" "animals" etc. Double standards right here... Russia would treat Ukraine way better than Israel treats Palestine and it would not kick them out of their homes if it won the war in its beginnings yet the struggle for Ukrainians to fight is praised upon. When Palestinians do it is frowned upon. The steaks for Palestinians here is higher because Russia sees Ukraine as part of itself while Israel sees Palestinians as inferior. 1 hour ago, Leo Gura said: Yes, Palestinians have been kicked out of their homes. But that's what happens when you don't have a proper solid state You are talking about legal technicalities. Point is if someone kicks you out of your home, their cause to take revenge on you is just and understandable. Palestinian hatred towards Israel is justified. It does not justify Hamas atrocities though, but it makes them understandable. Also add on top of it treating them like shit for decades on top of taking their land. Calling this an unprovoked attack is not honest. It was bound to happen. Edited November 8, 2023 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 40 minutes ago, Nivsch said: You have to really consider if any other option is possible given a terror organization regime in the place. Also ask yourself I they even have the ability to supply themselves many of these things and in the proper amount. Why wouldn't they have the ability? Is it because their subhuman 'animals'? Israel can't block their economic development, and then claim that they are incapable of economic development. Then we look on from our comfortable homes and feel as if we're more 'developed' and higher up on the spiral stages than them. ''JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has cost the seaside territory as much as $16.7 billion in economic losses and sent poverty and unemployment skyrocketing, a U.N. report said Wednesday, as it called on Israel to lift the closure. The report by the U.N. Conference on Trade and Development echoed calls by numerous international bodies over the years criticizing the blockade. But its findings, looking at an 11-year period ending in 2018, marked perhaps the most detailed analysis of the Israeli policy to date.'' The claim to a land because of historic roots can be taken to any degree. For example we could all go to South Africa's gold mine region, take that land from the people and then negotiate with them on how much is fair for us to take and for them to keep - because we have a common ancestry connection from 100'000 years ago. And when they resist, especially with arms we call them terrorists and gaslight them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: I am not sure I understood the analogy. Oslo greement tried to make them quite independent what made the terror worse with suicide bombs in Israeli cities twice a week! Israel should have go in there from new and conquer parts of the west bank. It seems to me you don't want to discuss seriously so unless you explain more I stop here. I dont know why you feel this hatred and I dont remember from where you are. You can share if you want but I think you just want to argue. Whats your solution to all this? I haven't heard any of that from you I already said mine and the reasons why I think it's the best. Move Israel to USA If you have a better solution for no more war ever then speak up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: It has been centuries since a nation has been conquered with the intention of expelling its inhabitants. It has been conquered in colonialism, to have the political power of foreign countries, but the expulsion of a nation for a Western power I would say has not occurred since the Native Americans The issue is that Palestine was never a proper "nation". It was a loose collection of villages and towns. You can't retroactively create "a nation". You have to build that nation first and defend it. People just take for granted the existence of a Palestinian nation. As if nations are like mountains, which exist by themselves. 20 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: How come when Russia did similar things in Mauripol during its siege everyone lost their shit and called them "war criminals" "animals" etc. Double standards right here... Plenty of people are calling Israelis war criminals and losing their shit. Russia also was fighting a more conventional war, not Jihadists in tunnels under dense civilian areas. The Ukraine army does not fire rockets from hospitals. So there is no military need to bomb a Ukraine hospital other than to demoralize the population, which is a war crime. Edited November 8, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Leo Gura said: Yes, Palestinians have been kicked out of their homes. But that's what happens when you don't have a proper solid state. Anyone can come along and kick you out. That's why a state is needed with a military. It is what it is. I was just saying if you don't want to say genocide that there is definitely an ethnic cleansing aspect to all this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 13 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: You are talking about legal technicalities. Point is if someone kicks you out of your home, their cause to take revenge on you is just and understandable. Palestinian hatred towards Israel is justified. It does not justify Hamas atrocities though, but it makes them understandable. Everything in human history is understandable. You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Everything in human history is understandable. In all your studies what is the most sadistic thing that a group of humans have ever done in your opinion? Just interested. Didn't Genghis Khan massacre everyone and then have dinner on top of their dead bodies or something? The Nanjing Massacre sounded horrible too I couldn't stomach that Edited November 8, 2023 by Twentyfirst Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 8, 2023 7 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: It is what it is. I was just saying if you don't want to say genocide that there is definitely an ethnic cleansing aspect to all this 70 years ago, there def was. You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
