New War In Israel / Gaza

[Twentyfirst]

On 11/5/2023 at 1:56 AM, Nivsch said:

But to evacuate thousand of settlers is the extreme opposite and will show us as weak. What also have been proved to increase the terror.

Something that both Israelis and Palestinians could agree on is that Israel can't do anything without the help of the USA

Israel IS weak

[PurpleTree]

22 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Something that both Israelis and Palestinians could agree on is that Israel can't do anything without the help of the USA

Israel IS weak

Israel is only a country of 9 million people that’s the same as countries like sweden, austria, switzerland, czech, portugal they are all around the 8-10 million

if israel is weak then arab countries are super weak

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Israel is only a country of 9 million people that’s the same as countries like sweden, austria, switzerland, czech, portugal they are all around the 8-10 million

if israel is weak then arab countries are super weak

egypt is a country of 110 million

iran 90 million 

iraq 40

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

Something that both Israelis and Palestinians could agree on is that Israel can't do anything without the help of the USA

Israel IS weak

Haha not true

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Nivsch Since you seem a reasonable Israeli, I have a question.

How is the Nakba justified in Israeli society, I saw a video of a Jewish professor saying you cannot even mention it there. Are Israelis aware of it and if yes, how is it justified?

Nakba - Wikipedia for info.

The education here is about the war of indepenence. I think the awareness to the problems Jews did to arabs in this war is highly partial because honestly I also wasn't aware until recent years.

You can add things you know, but from what I know and read, the arabs were the side that resist co-existing the most, and started in 1947 the war after the UN's distribution plan has been published.

Can we assume that if the arabs were just accept the UN plan, and did nothing, so there would be nothing? Just to think about that.

The vast majority of arabs abandoned their homes by themselves what doesnt make the situation good because they felt trauma anyway.

The jews were quite deffensive at the beggining, and only after their survival and existance was really threatened to a critical point, only then they started to actively conquer lands and not always in moral ways.

But yes, during this war there were active deportations of arabs from their homes but I read that most of the deportations were because the arabs resisted in violence in the first place, but not always. The question is - did the jews came here and just started a violence or let the people evacuate by themselves?

Even if the answer is the latter, it still doesnt make it good because deportation is deportation. But again, the active deportations were most likely most of them only after the jews were almost been killed according to what I wrote above assuming this is the full picture.

So I assume I can smell who is the (much?) more problematic side here and it is not the jews. But maybe I am biased. Add things from your own knowledge if you want.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch Thank you for your detailed response.

Would you agree that the settlements in the West Bank needs to stop and the current government with the PM need to be replaced with a less right wing, less racist government for peace to follow?

Also, I read that the current PM was on the process of changing the judiciary system to enhance his political power and Israelis were angry about that. What are your thoughts on that? 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

The question is - did the jews came here and just started a violence or let the people evacuate by themselves?

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 

As I have read, the Arabs fled due to the terror inspired by massacres such as that of Deir Yassin, where there were murders of civilians including women and children, and also in other villages that disappeared after ethnic cleansing.

[hundreth]

Addresses Deir Yassin and a few other talking points. He's certainly biased in Israel's favor, but certainly food for thought.

Edited November 6, 2023 by hundreth

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Nivsch Thank you for your detailed response.

Would you agree that the settlements in the West Bank needs to stop and the current government with the PM need to be replaced with a less right wing, less racist government for peace to follow?

Also, I read that the current PM was on the process of changing the judiciary system to enhance his political power and Israelis were angry about that. What are your thoughts on that? 

Yes I agree the expansion doesn't help and maybe do harm and need to be stopped to show good intentions and seriousness.

This change is bad because it weakens the court and here this is especially problematic because we dont have a constitution and that can lead to a too powerful government.

His narcissistic point of view puted all our society into an internal clash between two sides, an auto immune like condition that weakened us. But now we have united back after october 7th.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

As I have read, the Arabs fled due to the terror inspired by massacres such as that of Deir Yassin, where there were murders of civilians including women and children, and also in other villages that disappeared after ethnic cleansing.

Yes, it was carried out by a group of Jewish terrorists (as defined by the British Mandate) before the Arab-Israeli war on May 14, 1948.

They were considered extremities (called "Haezel") who believed in claiming the land through acts of terror against Arabs and British people.

However, this does not represent the way Jews fought against Arabs in 1948, which was simply a war of the Jews moderate military "Hahagna" (which evolved to IDF) and Arabs of Israel, including Arabs from Lebanon, Iraq, the Muslim Brotherhood organization, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.

[hundreth]

Most discussion around this topic doesn't influence anyone's opinion or change anything. It does help us feel validated when we see someone share our sentiments though. 

[Nivsch]

16 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Most discussion around this topic doesn't influence anyone's opinion or change anything. It does help us feel validated when we see someone share our sentiments though. 

I am not sure I understood the second sentence can you explain it?

[An young being]

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Most discussion around this topic doesn't influence anyone's opinion or change anything. It does help us feel validated when we see someone share our sentiments though. 

It does influence in subtle ways though.

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I am not sure I understood the second sentence can you explain it?

Basically, we feel less alone when we see others going through the same feelings and reacting in similar ways.

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, An young being said:

It does influence in subtle ways though.

Perhaps. If anything, it pushes us further apart in many cases. When you go through the motions trying to see the other's viewpoints, address their points one by one in good faith, and then see goal posts shift and zero progress made to finding common ground - it personally makes me less apologetic about my views and circumstances because it becomes clear how little others care. At some point all you can do is agree to disagree and defend yourself. 

[Vrubel]

I think what people fail to understand is that Israelis view this as a war against Hamas, and that's exactly what it is. Much of the world kinda seems to dismiss it and conveniently leave Hamas out of the equation when talking about the suffering in Gaza. 

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I think what people fail to understand is that Israelis view this as a war against Hamas, and that's exactly what it is. Much of the world kinda seems to dismiss it and conveniently leave Hamas out of the equation when talking about the suffering in Gaza. 

It becomes a never ending circular debate because they blame Israel for Hamas. So because Israel is partly responsible for Hamas, they can hand waive away anything Hamas does as self inflicted, and the solution to the conflict in their eyes is the suicide of the Jewish state. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by hundreth

[Twentyfirst]

7 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Israel is only a country of 9 million people that’s the same as countries like sweden, austria, switzerland, czech, portugal they are all around the 8-10 million

if israel is weak then arab countries are super weak

I mean the Israeli spirit is weak. Israel was founded on victimhood from the holocaust. Israel asks for help from USA. Israel complains about anti-semitism. Israel is afraid to die which is why they need so much security vs Palestinians who aren't afraid to die at all 

Sounds pretty weak to me

[Twentyfirst]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Haha not true

Yes, yes it is true

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Yes, it was carried out by a group of Jewish terrorists (as defined by the British Mandate) before the Arab-Israeli war on May 14, 1948.

They were considered extremities (called "Haezel") who believed in claiming the land through acts of terror against Arabs and British people.

However, this does not represent the way Jews fought against Arabs in 1948, which was simply a war of the Jews moderate military "Hahagna" (which evolved to IDF) and Arabs of Israel, including Arabs from Lebanon, Iraq, the Muslim Brotherhood organization, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 

There were many massacres, the nakba occurred due to the terror of these massacres, for example that of Al-Dawayima was perpetrated by the Israeli army, which entered a village and killed about 450 civilians, half of them women and children.