New War In Israel / Gaza

[Something Funny]

13 minutes ago, DawnC said:

The difference lies in the overall state of affairs.

All things considered, the overall state of affairs looks kind of grim at Israel right now, not gonna lie.

[HMD]

@Breakingthewall There is no point in arguing with them, they are blind and justifying shamelessly. 

[zazen]

Members of the Israeli cabinet have said things along the lines of Palestinians are responsible sympathizers for Hamas implying they should all be dealt with - and that's in a democracy which represents the people of Israel more accurately than Hamas represents the Palestinian people.

There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006, when the 2006 election took place a large portion of the population didn't vote as they were underage or just being born. Those children born in 2006 are now 18 years old and had no say in that election yet are held to account.

How can people lay blame to Palestinians for electing Hamas 18 years ago when majority didn't even elect them but from the other side can't see the genocidal degrading language of the the Israeli politicians who actually were elected into power in much recent times by Israelis themselves - yet say those far right politicians don't represent them?

 

So yes, Israel is such a 'developed' nation with more of a representative democracy - and what does that representation reflect in the politicians they currently have?

I think this whole paradigm of 'less developed' and 'more developed' glosses over the fact that the same dynamics can be taking place from any level of development, just in a different aesthetic/colour. A stage red society can kill with tools, a stage orange society can also kill but with a different more sophisticated set of tools - same dynamic and act (killing) but different manifestation and aesthetic.

A stage green person can be a warrior the same way a stage red person can - their just a social justice warrior, but in the name of stage green values they can carry out similar injustices as a stage red tribal warrior.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Every country in the world does or did some amount of that. This is the nature of any country's existance.

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 

Yes, countries also commit genocides, invasions, all kinds of things. I do not understand your answer. Your country systematically steals land from another country, since the Bible says it has the right. This makes your country a criminal. If it didn't do it it would stop being one, but it does it, and since it's your country you justify it. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, DawnC said:

Israelis aren't perfect. Can't you see the distinction between a place where such an organization, like the one responsible for this video, can actually exist and a place where it can't? It is a fundamental difference. There are intolerant people everywhere. The difference lies in the overall state of affairs.

The abuse and theft towards Palestinians is supported by the state. If a settler expels a Palestinian from his home, and kills one of his relatives, the Palestinian cannot report it to the authority, since it will do nothing. What can the Palestinian do? Besides terrorism I mean. emigrate? I guess many can't 

In this war, the president of Israel has said that they will get revenge, and the minister of defense that they deal with human animals, and then they have started bombing civilians, burying women and children in rubble. It's obvious.  What is the difference between that terrorism and that of Hamas? At least Hamas risks their lives by doing it, the Israelis do it without risk, with American material.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, countries also commit genocides, invasions, all kinds of things. I do not understand your answer. Your country systematically steals land from another country, since the Bible says it has the right. This makes your country a criminal. If he didn't do it he would stop being one, but he does it, and since it's your country you justify it. 

Its not his country which is exactly why he has to justify it 

[Nivsch]

@Breakingthewall The expansion of the settlements is wrong in my opinion and this is a mistake our current right wing government is doing.

The wesk bank is more complicated because Jerusalem included in it and so there is a value of Jews being there and in some villages around the city too to not be in enclave, so the occupation of part of the west bank is necessary and understandable.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

18 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Breakingthewall The expansion of the settlement is wrong in my opinion and this is a mistake our current right wing governmemt is doing.

 

If Israel as claimed is the only democracy in Middle east, by the people and for the people - doesn't that represent the people of Israel? If it doesn't, then can we also say the same for the Palestinians - that Hamas don't represent the Palestinians as a whole and shouldn't be demonised or collectively punished. Should the Israeli's be collectively punished by the Muslim world for what the few politicians do or the settlers?

Edited November 3, 2023 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

15 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The expansion of the settlements is wrong in my opinion and this is a mistake our current right wing government is doing.

It is wrong in your opinion, but what it really is is a continued act of war towards a weaker nation, perpetrated by a government that wins elections time and time again. 

This people are justifying an act of war against another nation. This is unacceptable today, the entire world must stop Israel, and I would say that it will do so, regardless of the fact that in your country the far-right radicals continue to be the most voted group.

[Nivsch]

@zazen The government represents part of the Israelis, and hamas represents part (~65%) of the gazaish.

If you have a good strategy to eliminate hamas with less civilian casualties, please display it.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

If you have a good strategy to eliminate hamas with less civilian casualties, please display it.

Its totally easy, evacuate women and kids and old people and place them in refugees camps in Israel, and you know it. 

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Its totally easy, evacuate women and kids and old people and place them in refugees camps in Israel, and you know it. 

They have been asked to evacuate to southward of gaza lake from the beggining of the war. Israel can't get million of people even temporarily this is not realistic.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Nivsch

[Something Funny]

@Nivsch

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

They have been asked to evacuate to southward of gaza lake from the beggining of the war. Israel can't get million of people even temporarily this is not realistic.

You guys should just admit that you are selfish hypocrites who would rather murder thousands of civilians than bother finding a compromise. 

[zazen]

28 minutes ago, Nabd said:

The amount of self deception going on here is worth studying.

If one is gonna blame Gazans for accepting Hamas then one should also blame Israelis for their own governments who funded Hamas and for their current fascist government, no? It makes sense to hold the same standard. Ben Gvir is not really different from Hamas. The guy literally was part of a terrorist organization.

The IDF = Hamas. They are just more professional/disciplined and more effective at killing than Hamas and they didn't need a conflict like this to kill Palestinians as killing Palestinians is just another day for some IDF members.

Now some will say but the IDF doesn't do this or that, well yes but they still kill civilians. If an innocent is dead I don't care if somebody desecrate their body or not because the problem is killing an innocent civilian, not the desecrating act.

Carpet bombing and using white phosphor on civilians is just not justifiable and if someone is gonna justify it then Hamas did nothing wrong. Its pretty simple logic that a 9 year old should be able to understand.

 

Nicely put. The dynamic and act are the same, the aesthetic is different.

A distinction can be made that civilizational development amplifies the tools society has (technology, weapons etc) while cultural development awakens the consciousness of the user using those tools. The problem is modernity has amplified our tools to the point they can destroy the earth, but have we awakened enough to be able to wield that power well enough. it's easy to see the shiny buildings and sophisticated military and think 'oh their developed' and equate that with moral value and development.

Edited November 3, 2023 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Israel can't get million of people even temporarily this is not realistic.

It has all the time he wants to organize it, if he really wants to put an end to Hamas, but it is obvious that he does not want this, since without evacuating Gaza it is impossible, they would have to kill 500 thousand civilians. What Israel wants is what its leaders have said publicly: revenge on human animals, and it's what is happening now. 

[DawnC]

Thank goodness that WW2 didn't occur in today's political landscape. People might draw comparisons between the US and the Nazis based on the higher number of German civilian casualties. A profoundly immature and distorted moral compass. 

[Something Funny]

4 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Thank goodness that WW2 didn't occur in today's political landscape. People might draw comparisons between the US and the Nazis based on the higher number of German civilian casualties. A profoundly immature and distorted moral compass. 

Yeah, thank God, because people might equate a terrorist organisation, which can only ever hope to do sneaky hit and run attacks and does not represent its people with one of the strongest military powers of its time capable of conquering the whole continent.

[DawnC]

4 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Yeah, thank God, because people might equate a terrorist organisation, which can only ever hope to do sneaky hit and run attacks and does not represent its people with one of the strongest military powers of its time capable of conquering the whole continent.

1. If Hamas were indeed more militarily capable, the Israelis would miss the aesthetics of the gas chambers. So will the Israeli Arabs btw, they were butchered in the same manner.

2. Hamas is part of a global threat that is heavily supported by Iran, which includes Hezbollah, large parts of Syria, the Houthis, and other militant groups. These are not kids in a playground. This is a real threat.

I don't think Nazi Germany and Hamas pose the same danger to the world at all. But the moral stance is not that far off in terms of clarity.

[DawnC]

@Something Funny

Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of criticism for Israel and large parts of their society, especially concerning the way they address this conflict. The thing is, it's very easy to get lost in the details of this criticism and miss the larger picture. I mentioned WW2 to emphasize the point that you can criticize the US for Dresden and Hiroshima all you want, but it's a mistake to conflate that with the larger overall picture. Yes, Hamas is not Nazi Germany, but Israel is far from Dresden as well. The accusations are also exaggerated. And the bigger picture is very clear.

Edited November 3, 2023 by DawnC

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Nabd said:

Literally the worst strategy to eliminate Hamas is to carpet bomb civilians because it doesn't affect Hamas and it gives them even more power but Netanyahu wanna bomb civilians because they dream about ending Gaza and just taking the land.

A much better one would be to send an ultimatum to Qatar to hand over Haniyee and others while taking a lot of prisoners from the west bank to force Hamas to release the prisoners.

Hamas already offered to release all prisoners just for a ceasefire but Israel refuse because it got humiliated by a small terrorist group.

Actually 1 or 2 more of these attacks could cause massive amount of Israelis to leave towards the US or Europe. 

Yeah someone on this thread already posted a video saying that if Hamas built tunnels underground in Israel they would not do carpet bombing (obviously)