Posted November 2, 2023 (edited) They won't allow a single state, especially not after this attack. Too much bad blood and broken trust that will take generations to mend perhaps. Also, demographically Palestinians will outnumber Israeli's which in a democracy means they will start to have more representation and power eventually - the Israeli's won't allow that. A two state is difficult to achieve also due to distrust of being neighbours and the Palestinians attacking one day - as members of this forum have mentioned. In fact, it won't even be allowed to be a state in the true sense as they won't allow it control of its borders or to have a military - essentially occupation light. The West Bank which could be the Palestinians state is now full of settlers who are far right, moving them will be next to impossible, especially after Ben Gvir has armed them with guns. I understand the difficulty Israel faces in eradicating Hamas whilst not committing war crimes/minimising casualties and having the world come at them for it - but maybe this simply doesn't have a military solution but a diplomatic one. At least the most basic thing would be to lift the blockade, siege and occupation and stop funding/protecting and giving impunity to settlers in the West Bank , and holding them to account. The settlers who have killed Palestinians in the West Bank have not even been charged. Edited November 2, 2023 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 @Nivsch Why not propose the evacuation of all women and children from Gaza? It is certain that none of them are members of Hamas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, zazen said: They won't allow a single state, especially not after this attack. Too much bad blood and broken trust that will take generations to mend perhaps. Also, demographically Palestinians will outnumber Israeli's which in a democracy means they will start to have more representation and power eventually - the Israeli's won't allow that. A two state is difficult to achieve also due to distrust of being neighbours and the Palestinians attacking one day - as members of this forum have mentioned. In fact, it won't even be allowed to be a state in the true sense as they won't allow it control of its borders or to have a military - essentially occupation light. The West Bank which could be the Palestinians state is now full of settlers who are far right, moving them will be next to impossible, especially after Ben Gvir has armed them with guns. I understand the difficulty Israel faces in eradicating Hamas whilst not committing war crimes/minimising casualties and having the world come at them for it - but maybe this simply doesn't have a military solution but a diplomatic one. At least the most basic thing would be to lift the blockade, siege and occupation and stop funding/protecting and giving impunity to settlers in the West Bank , and holding them to account. The settlers who have killed Palestinians in the West Bank have not even been charged. I believe that the 'solution' mindset contributes to the problem. The West should give up. This could be the only way forward towards a more mature and responsible approach to this conflict. In a sense, the sooner the West gives up on the Palestinians, the sooner a solution may become possible. By 'giving up,' I don't mean not caring, but rather not fixating on achieving a historical compromise and treating them as victims. The key to improving the situation may lie in imposing a solution on the Palestinians while taking their interests into consideration. This approach would be similar to Israel's actions when they left Gaza without a formal agreement (but with the aim of preventing a situation like what happened with Hamas). The second step is to intervene in the Palestinian educational system. This approach might actually make the evacuation of the most problematic settlements possible. Edited November 2, 2023 by DawnC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: @Nivsch Why not propose the evacuation of all women and children from Gaza? It is certain that none of them are members of Hamas Because Egypt closed the door for them and they can't go out. But Israel told them to evacuate to the south where there is food and water and very little (realatively) bombing Of course your idea is good, and to oppose to this and be against such idea is pure hypocrisy and support the terror. Edited November 2, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Because Egypt closed the door for them Camps could be located in Israel, thus demonstrating without a doubt that the intention is to cause minimal damage. Now, after hearing Netanyahu promise revenge, and the defense minister saying that he is dealing with human animals, the bombings of civilians seem intentional, with a desire to kill innocent people as revenge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 I would say that Israel is killing civilians as a strategy, a warning, to demonstrate to its potential enemies that in the event of war Israel will not be merciful, and taking into account its arsenal, that says a lot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: I would say that Israel is killing civilians as a strategy, a warning, to demonstrate to its potential enemies that in the event of war Israel will not be merciful, and taking into account its arsenal, that says a lot. Because you dont know Israel and its ok. no anger on you. You are not suppose to know. I live here 36 years (from birth), I know the society, mentality, conversations, thinking patterns, values and know that your claim is pretty unlikely. Edited November 2, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 (edited) President Biden and a growing number of Democrats have now called for a humanitarian pause. I hope Israel eventually agrees to that. Edited November 2, 2023 by Hardkill Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 Just thought I'd share this here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, Hardkill said: President Biden and a growing number of Democrats have now called for a humanitarian pause. I hope Israel eventually agrees to that. Wonder why they can just call for ceasefire and instead call for just a pause. Tomorrow Hezbollah will be making a statement - could be a big day and change the trajectory of what's to come. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 16 minutes ago, Hardkill said: President Biden and a growing number of Democrats have now called for a humanitarian pause. I hope Israel eventually agrees to that. I hope our 240 hostages will be free. 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 52 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Because you dont know Israel and its ok. no anger on you. You are not suppose to know. I live here 36 years (from birth), I know the society, mentality, conversations, thinking patterns, values and know that your claim is pretty unlikely. only conclusions looking at the facts, perhaps not accurate. When a refugee camp is bombed, it is a decision that is made knowing what one is doing, the same as when snipers killed children in the 2018 protests. The only conclusion for me is that they are trying to communicate that in the event of a war escalation, the consequences will be total destruction, in order to force a peaceful attitude on the adversaries, out of fear. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 7 hours ago, PurpleTree said: Do you think israel has the right to exist? Because your posts say otherwise Yes, it should definitely exist. Just not on stolen land Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 8 hours ago, Lila9 said: No, how my mind works? Basically by constantly deceiving you using the oldest tricks in the book and you not aware enough to catch it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 10 hours ago, Lila9 said: Of course, every crime against Jews is justified. Let's eliminate them and kill all of them because they dared to build a country to save themselves from Nazis. Antisemitism is on raise. It never really disappeared. I am not saying that every single crime against Jews is justified. I was using sarcasm about your surprise. You are somehow surprised that a robber got shot while he's robbing the bank so I was making fun of you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 11 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: I am not saying that every single crime against Jews is justified. I was using sarcasm about your surprise. You are somehow surprised that a robber got shot while he's robbing the bank so I was making fun of you It's easy to reduce the entire conflict into this easy to understand narrative for you. The truth is much more complex and nuanced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 42 minutes ago, zazen said: Wonder why they can just call for ceasefire and instead call for just a pause. Tomorrow Hezbollah will be making a statement - could be a big day and change the trajectory of what's to come. Because a ceasefire leaves things exactly where they started. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 4 hours ago, hundreth said: Do you really believe this is viable? Neither side wants this. If a conflict lasted almost a century and still no solution has been reached, plus triggering a WW3, the wisest thing to do might be to allow a non biased external intervention to enforce the most fair solution for both sides. Maybe disarm both sides and ban all gun use. It will take a very long time, but with reparations and time the hate between two sides has a chance to subside. I think it's very expected that a lot in both sides would say they don't want this solution, but both sides are blinded by trauma and hate, not the best mindset to make decisions for future generations. As for the democracy part and elections, maybe it would be best to prevent the participation of any religious or extremist parties, so the candidate pool would only include secular, moderate and balanced individuals. I think the only reason it's a difficult and almost impossible solution is because Israel and the western powers don't want this. Israeli gov wants to remain a Jewish majority, protect their ethno-nationalist settler project and induce a democracy that only fits their agenda. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, lina said: Maybe disarm both sides and ban all gun use. It will take a very long time, but with reparations and time the hate between two sides has a chance to subside. Thats a very silly solution, you think you can disarm, Iran and Hezbollah and even Iraq? Because then those countries will complain why does Europe gets to keep weapons. When swords will be turned into plows will be after Messaih coming, before that will be wishful thinking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 2, 2023 20 minutes ago, hundreth said: It's easy to reduce the entire conflict into this easy to understand narrative for you. The truth is much more complex and nuanced. The truth? The truth about what? It seems we are talking about different things. The truth about Israel is it is a state based on an invasion of other peoples land. You can say many more things but this truth is at the foundation of all those things you would say Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
