New War In Israel / Gaza

[Breakingthewall]

39 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Why does the holocaust matter at all when speaking about Israel vs Palestine?

Maybe because a large part of Muslims would like a Jewish holocaust to occur, and they would like to provoke it 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Twentyfirst]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe because a large part of Muslims would like a Jewish holocaust to occur, and they would like to provoke it themselves.

No. Just no

[Hardkill]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Turkey is an outrage. So is Iran.

And the invasion hasn't even begun.

The whole Muslim world will be genuinely outraged by the next year of brutal images from in Gaza. It will look more and more like a genocide, even if it technically isn't. The Arabs and Muslims in the region will see it that way. And the leaders in power will have a lot of pressure to act.

Just try to imagine how bad the footage from Gaza will be after 3-5 months of no food, water, medicine, fuel. It's gonna look extremely bad, like Israel is starving out the whole population. When even moderate people see this they will turn against Israel.

What is gonna happen to over 1,000,000 civilians in Gaza a year into this seige and blockade? They will be on the brink of death or madness. Even assuming Israel has no desire to do a genocide, in practice that's what is gonna happen if the invasion and blockage lasts for 3+ months.

For Israel's own sake they need to care more about saving the Gaza civilians and give them supplies.

It looks like Israel has agreed to allow at least 100 aid trucks per day to enter into the Gaza:

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-30-23/h_df02b46639b41f5ebd0e6b1b5330ffe6

[Loveeee]

 

[Jodistrict]

 

[MuadDib]

I listened to this vaush clip today and thought it was interesting how democratic support for Biden is tanking in younger demographics based on his response to the Israeli conflict. This is a lose-lose situation for the democrats in the US, as historically allies with Israel are necessary to maintain a military presence in the Arab world. Supporting Israel is somewhat necessary for the us, and denouncing their actions will be interpreted as antisemitism. Right at the end he talks about how great it would be if politicians could just come out and say what they meant, referring to clip from the 80's. It reminded me of this:
 

 

[Lila9]

14 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

My great grandparents are from the Ukraine, and when they were children

This is not the same.

I don't think that everyone should now leave and claim the territory where their grandfather used to live.

But Israel was in unique situation, persecuted people, after holocaust who went to a land connected to them historically and by blood, there wasn't any country there at that time yet, only the British mandate, so they did what they could to built a their country for themselves. Is the execution was perfect? Hell no. Is anyone's execution of building a country is perfect? Mostly not.

14 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Here is an Arab on Arab genocide:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre

Is this was that popular at the news with people around the world calling it genocide? I don't know, I didn't live when it happened but I guess that most people in the world weren't aware to that.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Lila9

[Lila9]

@DefinitelyNotARobot I appreciate your nuanced perspective.

[lina]

On 10/30/2023 at 1:01 PM, Nivsch said:

Colonization - where do you think Israelis should not live?

From the start establishing a Zionist state on a land that had people was a terrible idea. Having historical connection to a region, does not equate having actual rights of ownership and sovereignty to it. Such claims will never make sense to the Palestinians nor should it. 
Israel is already a reality that can't be changed now, but acknowledging its colonialist nature is the first step to move forward. 

On 10/30/2023 at 1:01 PM, Nivsch said:

Loss of lands - What in your opinion the Jews should do differently in Israel establishment in 1948?

They entered the region as refugees. Refugees can integrate with the existing society, work, purchase real estate and so on. But they don't have the right to take over lands, terrorize, push civilians away, divide the country and establish an ethno-nationalist state over the cost of the existing natives. That's a recipe for a never-ending conflict. 

On 10/30/2023 at 1:01 PM, Nivsch said:

Nakba - This is a big word. Please break it down.

https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/ 

On 10/30/2023 at 1:01 PM, Nivsch said:

Uncountable number of massacres - you will have to break it down too.

Some examples include Deir Yassin, Tantura, Qibya and Kafr Qasim massaccre 

On 10/30/2023 at 1:01 PM, Nivsch said:

Bombing civilians - Do you agree on the statement that Israel really try to target only terroriats and that the terrorists use civilians as human shield all the time?

Israel has no issue in targeting civilians. It should be clear by now. The human shield thing even if it was true, is not even a justification. 

On 10/30/2023 at 1:01 PM, Nivsch said:

Apharteid - How is this gets along with the fact that we have Arab doctors in israel, Arab judges in Israel, Arab journalists, Arab scientists, Arab knesset members...?

That's the opinion of several human rights organizations, look up Amnesty reports on this issue. 

[lina]

 

[Nivsch]

13 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Do you think you are the chosen people btw?

No. this is rediculous.

But still people disregard the need of israel to maintain its Jew majority in the population to deffend our value system and character in the only place in the world we can do that.

Arabs should get full civil rights and ARE get it here by policy, and even though this is not 100% the case (human nature is to bias its ethnicity even a little bit more in subtle senses under the radar) arabs get every decent function in Israel society and this is great and we should always do effort to be as fair as possible and to improve more.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

10 hours ago, Loveeee said:

 

 He said could be tunnels - yet that justifies bombing a refugee camp. Ridiculous. They don't know how their border got breached yet they know where Hamas is and want the world to believe their 'targeting'.

When you've got western mass media pundits deciding this shit is too evil to stake their reputations on, you're losing. Even Wolf Blitzer ( who literally worked for AIPAC ) is pushing back against an IDF official about this and Piers Morgan.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer: You knew that there were innocent civilians in that refugee camp, right?

IDF spox: This is the tragedy of war. We told them to move south.

Blitzer: So you decided to drop the bomb anyway.

IDF spox: We’re doing everything we can to minimize civilian deaths.

'All these pundits are noticing the same thing, history may look very, very unkindly on those who supported this massacre. Not even the worst empire propagandists want that to be their lasting legacy.'

Another week, another loss for Israels global reputation only to fuel yet another weekend ahead of even greater protests around the world. But Israelis think this is making them safer and that this is defence when really it is creating more hostility for them to be ever defensive against their whole lives.

Edited November 1, 2023 by zazen

[zazen]

13 hours ago, hundreth said:

Yes we know you are a trained military strategist who knows more than the IDF leadership. 

I didn't claim that, but that is what some very smart generals and military strategists have said - look up Scott Ritter and Douglas Macgregor. The IDF know so much that their border got breached by 'undeveloped' 'barbarian' 'animals' apparently. 

[Nivsch]

@zazen What rediculous is the unfairness you guys have here in this discussion towards Israel, Israeli public and the inability to understand their perspective and feel the deep insecure and threat they feel in a way they have and probably YOU have never felt in the past as a western boy/man in a developed country like us.

I just can imagine how would you react if your hometown was under similar threat and only 40km near you 1000 men, women, children and elderly would murdered by a terror organization who is deliberately looking for civilians like you. I bet you would react very differently and this is an understatement.

Watch some interviews of Israeli families and give up the idea you can understand the situation from distance.

As opposed to terror, a little modesty won't kill you.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

14 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Do you think you are the chosen people btw?

If they think they are the chosen people what does that make everyone else? 

[PurpleTree]

29 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen What rediculous is the unfairness you guys have here in this discussion towards Israel, Israeli public and the inability to understand their perspective and feel the deep insecure and threat they feel in a way they have and probably YOU have never felt in the past as a western boy/man in a developed country like us.

I just can imagine how would you react if your hometown was under similar threat and only 40km near you 1000 men, women, children and elderly would murdered by a terror organization who is deliberately looking for civilians like you. I bet you would react very differently and this is an understatement.

Watch some interviews of Israeli families and give up the idea you can understand the situation from distance.

As opposed to terror, a little modesty won't kill you.

 

Well i get it, it’s tough. 
i have visited israel and i really mostly liked it. Historically there’s so much to see. Food is great. Had some great parties there too in Tel Aviv. I like that it‘s generally liberal toward lgbt etc. compared to many other places in the middle east.

But we are not Israelis, so we see the Palestinians suffering a lot too.

And with the settlers and people like Netanyahu it‘s just very problematic and often very „unfair“

also some people in the thread are just anti israel in every way

Edited November 1, 2023 by PurpleTree

[zazen]

@Nivsch I'm not against Israel, but its current form and its actions are against the interest of Israelis and to a wider extent Jews who live abroad threatened by increasing anti Semitism. Israelis have the IDF to protect them in mostly Jewish cities in Israel - what about the Jews living abroad in multicultural places - the arrogance and emboldened far right of Israel and its reactions to the Hamas attack put them at risk worldwide where they IDF don't exist to protect them. They also put at risk Israel itself because of the complacency arrogance has brought them and the thinking that US will back them no matter what.

I live in a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood in London mixed with Muslims, I have Israeli friends who live in Israel and some from the West who only go to Eilat to party in the summers and relatives in Nazareth who say they can't even post on Gaza on social media fearing the IDF will come cause trouble, so I'm aware of the different perspectives.  

 

I'd suggest watching this to hear a different perspective to the one Israeli's are propagandised into and which may work against them in the long run:

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by zazen

[Something Funny]

34 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen What rediculous is the unfairness you guys have here in this discussion towards Israel, Israeli public and the inability to understand their perspective and feel the deep insecure and threat they feel in a way they have and probably YOU have never felt in the past as a western boy/man in a developed country like us.

I just can imagine how would you react if your hometown was under similar threat and only 40km near you 1000 men, women, children and elderly would murdered by a terror organization who is deliberately looking for civilians like you. I bet you would react very differently and this is an understatement.

Watch some interviews of Israeli families and give up the idea you can understand the situation from distance.

As opposed to terror, a little modesty won't kill you.

 

You guys sure love to play a victim card. How about 30x more dead palestinian people? I don't see you trying to emphasize with them very much.

 

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 

I just can imagine how would you react if your hometown was under similar threat and only 40km near you 1000 men, women, children and elderly would murdered by a terror organization who is deliberately looking for civilians like you. I bet you would react very differently and this is an understatement.

 

How would you feel if controllers cut off your food water electricity and internet and bombed you and just 40km away there are Israeli children playing and laughing in the park? 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

This is great to see.