New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

Just now, Nivsch said:

No. I do believe that hamas must be eliminated if we want to even think about piece, but we have to do it according the rules of war, what Israel does.

@Jodistrict  Israel these says is supported more than ever and this will improve more in the future. Lies tend to be exposed even if this is slow. You dont know how much Israel was the black sheep in the beggining of 00's. So i'm optimistic 🙂

About the controller of the world that you mention in the start this is a shallow  conspiracy in my opinion.

Israel does not follow the rules of engagement set out internationally. People can condemn and see the actions of Hamas as evil but its shocking how they can be complete Israel apologists, uncritical and hypocritical when it comes to Israels actions.

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel does not follow the rules of engagement set out internationally. People can condemn and see the actions of Hamas as evil but its shocking how they can be complete Israel apologists, uncritical and hypocritical when it comes to Israels actions.

Same can be said for the other side though

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@PurpleTree And so is America that by the way, the whites had no biblical or spiritual claim to USA, but none of you open any topics about it, you stole from Indians fair and square. Hey, then the entire world is colonizer. Big deal.

At that time they did those things, they also had slaves and they flogged them to make them work, and they sold their children at auctions, but today we have evolved and we avoid doing those things.

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel does not follow the rules of engagement set out internationally. People can condemn and see the actions of Hamas as evil but its shocking how they can be complete Israel apologists, uncritical and hypocritical when it comes to Israels actions.

You are free to think whatever you want. It is easy to judge when you dont have to deal with the most cynical, manipulative, shamelss and brutal terror organization on earth.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Same can be said for the other side though

Yes, Hamas - not Palestinians. But why is it that Hamas is a terrorist organisation but Israel isn't a terrorist state. Why isn't there logical consistency.

 

What is your definition of terrorism and do you condemn it in any of its forms whether it be by an individual, organisation or at a state level?

[zazen]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You are free to think whatever you want. It is easy to judge when you dont have to deal with the most cynical, manipulative, shamelss and brutal terror organization on earth.

Yes exactly, it is easier to judge and discern a situation when emotions aren't as heavily involved. Emotion has its way of consuming people - there is not just a fog of war but the fog of emotion within a war that blinds you.

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, zazen said:

Yes, Hamas - not Palestinians. But why is it that Hamas is a terrorist organisation but Israel isn't a terrorist state. Why isn't there logical consistency.

 

What is your definition of terrorism and do you condemn it in any of its forms whether it be by an individual, organisation or at a state level?

Because obviously Israel isn't a terrorist state no matter how many times you try to jam this moral equivalence BS. 

Israel would love if Hamas isolated themselves and could fight a normal battle between militia. Hamas couldn't care less, their only objective is to kill civilians. If the situations were reversed and Hamas had Israel's firepower, how long would it take for Israel (Gaza) to be completely wiped off the map with all the inhabitants dead? Wouldn't take 75 years I can guarantee you that!

[zazen]

@Nivsch @PurpleTree @hundreth @Vrubel

 

What would you guys define as terrorism?

 

And to follow up from that, do you condemn that terrorism?

 

The global standard definition of terrorist is: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

 

If you are logically consistent, can you not see that terrorism can be committed by a individual, organisation or a state - it is only a matter of degree and scale, and that Israel commits terrorist acts. That of course doesn't call for the extermination of the actor as a whole (Israel or a organisation) but rather an extermination of the conditions that would terrorise a person or a country into terrorist actions.

 

You critique the behaviours and actions, not the being itself to be put out of existence. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, zazen said:

Yes exactly, it is easier to judge and discern a situation when emotions aren't as heavily involved. Emotion has its way of consuming people - there is not just a fog of war but the fog of emotion within a war that blinds you.

Without emotion you loose touch with reality. If you think you can judge well this situation from distance you are deluding yourself.

Much better approach is to study well the perspective of both sides including their videos, interviews, expressions, emotions, etc.

Emotions are intelligent signs created from your subconscious which is a super computer whereas your conscious logic can only see a sliver of reality every time (few elements a second vs thousands in the subconscious).

Edited October 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

6 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Nivsch @PurpleTree @hundreth @Vrubel

 

What would you guys define as terrorism? 

Mostly religious nut jobs who are willing to die for their cause and kill as many civilians as possible from the other side 

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Nivsch @PurpleTree @hundreth @Vrubel

 

What would you guys define as terrorism?

 

And to follow up from that, do you condemn that terrorism?

 

If you are logically consistent, can you not see that terrorism can be committed by a individual, organisation or a state - it is only a matter of degree and scale.

I'm not going to play these semantic games with you. Of course nation states can commit terrorism. Every nation makes mistakes, has blind spots, go through eras with more reasonable and less reasonable leaderships. The difference is, those nations stand for much more than these isolated events. Hamas' mission statement is the extermination of Jews.

Even today these events don't fit the criteria for Israel. There have been 7,000 airstrikes and 7,000 stated Palestinian civilian casualties. That's 1 civilian per airstrike. If the objective is the indiscriminate murder of civilians (what Hamas does) - would the casualties not be much higher? With all of Israel's high tech capabilities you like to speak to, why would they be so terrible at acting out said terrorism? Perhaps it's because the objective is beyond that, unlike Hamas.

[Vrubel]

@zazen The nature of Hamas and the environment of Gaza makes this war exceptionally brutal.

Terrorism is blowing up a police station or a bus. What Hamas did goes way beyond that.

[Nivsch]

@zazen Terror: Exploiting a good thing from something/someone and using it against him. 

hamas do that.

And of course the deliberate harm to civilians.

Also only hamas.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Nivsch

[Alex M]

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

The global standard definition of terrorist is: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

You are being very short-sighted here if you think the Israelis are deliberately using violence toward civilians. Yes, there are many civilian casualties (it's war), but there could be 100-fold more if Israelis took the don't give a fuck about anyone approach here.

I get your point about the term terrorist. It's very much open to interpretation. You could say the UK/US/Russian/Chinese governments are all terrorists.

[Merkabah Star]

Footage shows Israeli tank blowing up a civilian-owned car in Gaza Strip

 

[zazen]

41 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Without emotion you loose touch with reality. If you think you can judge well this situation from distance you are deluding yourself.

 

When highly emotional peoples reasoning is disputed they often perceive this as invalidating their emotions. The deprivation of their “right to feel” because their opinion and its hasty conclusion is often founded upon an instinct or feeling rather than a deduction or investigation. 

@hundreth

By law, people under occupation have the right to armed resistance which is denied to Palestinians but their are no rights for Israel to be doing things the way they are. Doesn't the Palestinian cause stand for much more than the isolated event of the Hamas attack?

Of course they can't kill that many because it would cause the escalation of other fronts opening up and world wide condemnation and their biggest backer (US) pulling away. The slow, steady inhumane treatment of Palestinians to weaken them in every way through control is crippling in a way that isn't as evident and flagrant as the current operation. 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by zazen

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

The issue is that Israel has been taken away from the natives. Imagine that someone knocks on your door one day and tells you that their great grandfather lived in that building and that you've got to move out because it's now theirs. Then they call the police who agrees with them and makes you move. That would probably infuriate you.

Yes, but on the grant scale, there was a Jewish kingdom on this land, in the biblical days, in the days of Jesus, +2000 years ago, much before there were Muslim Arabs, and these Jews used to be the natives and were expelled from this land twice and return to it on the third time in the help of Zionism. So this is not the classical case of a strong empire who occupies a forgein land but people who have history in the land which their ancestors were expelled from and returned to this land to build a safe place for themselves after they experienced the horrible Holocaust, after they realized that they cannot return to the world that allowed the Nazis to burn them and kill them in the most horrific ways, as nothing bad ever happened.

And I disagree that Israel does genocide in Gaza, Israel is not interested in killing Palestinians for the sake of it, it doesn't want to eliminate Arabs or Muslims, but only terrorists like Hamas who commiting crimes against it.

People call it genocide because it's Israel, and the majority of people are intellectually lazy and automatically connect Israel with Judaism. And those who are antisemitic, would look close on everything that Israel does and exaggerate it, every action, and create fiction stories, and spread lies upon lies only to fuel their antisemitism and/or Islamic supermisty.

If this conflict was between Arabs only, no one would called it genocide, or occupation, but war.

 

[PurpleTree]

holy war yaaay

[zazen]

@Lila9

Ariel Kallner, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, explained Israel’s goal behind the Gaza war. “Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948,” he said.

The same sentiment was conveyed by Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, the man responsible for translating Israel’s declaration of war into an action plan: “We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly,” he said on October 9. 

Tutsis are cockroaches. We will kill you.”

Arabs are like “drugged cockroaches in a bottle.”

The first quote was a line repeated frequently by the Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines, a Rwandan radio station, which is largely blamed for inciting hatred towards the Tutsi people.

The second is by former Israeli army Chief-of-Staff Gen. Rafael Eitan in 1983, speaking at an Israeli parliament’s committee.

Rwanda’s hate-filled radio station operated for only one year (1993-94), yet the outcome of its incitement resulted in one of the saddest and most tragic episodes in modern human history: the genocide of the Tutsis.

Compare “Radio Genocide” to the massive Israeli-U.S.-Western propaganda, dehumanizing Palestinians almost with identical language to that used by Hutus’ media.

 

[Gennadiy1981]

I am reading the posts here and basically to summarize it all. None of us will agree with others, this is all verbal masturbation. I will not convince you and you will not convince me. And thats fine and its beautiful. Don't worry we Jews survived for thousands of years and we will survive more. People are biased and they refuse to listen to any side and thats reality. I think at this point on, it is only entertaining of words. I think we should switch to another topic. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Gennadiy1981