New War In Israel / Gaza

[docs20]

Israel has made his mistakes in the settlement expansion and in the Netanyahu policies, but in the end I didn't hear any commentator actually speak about legit alternatives to the current reaction of Israel to the massacre 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, docs20 said:

Israel has made his mistakes in the settlement expansion and in the Netanyahu policies, but in the end I didn't hear any commentator actually speak about legit alternatives to the current reaction of Israel to the massacre 

Alternative #1: Less arial bombing of civilian buildings. Never bomb hospitals, etc. Allow water, fuel, and aid into Gaza.

Alternative #2: No invasion, invest heavily into strong defenses.

Alternative #3: Annouce end to settlement expansion policy and call Hamas to negotiate release of all hostages and final peace settlement.

None of the feed the thirst for blood, but they are sensible options.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

End settlement expansion would be a huge step towards peace. If Israel was serious about peace that would be the first step. But Israel wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Personally I have no problem with stopping the expansion.

Do you mean also to evacuate all the isolated settlements? Because this is almost unrealistic to evacuate 100,000+ people.

And what about IDF presence in the west bank? After what happend, I fear that If IDF will leave the west bank, it might be too dangerous long term for the Israeli citiziens.

The west bank border is huge and we doesnt have enough force to defende it properly, and we have seen the value of technology when 1000 terrorists are trying to get in.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura The whole strategy of Hamas is to make Israel kill as many civilians as possible. Because that is how Israel gets pressured and loses out on international support. I don't think they have any qualms about placing their nerve centers under hospitals, it's perfectly in line with their psychology and total disregard for anything. For them, it's strategically brilliant even straightforward and logical to put important command centers under hospitals.

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Alternative #1: Less arial bombing of civilian buildings.

Alternative #2: No invasion, invest heavily into strong defenses.

Alternative #3: Annouce end to settlement expansion policy and call Hamas to negotiate release of all hostages and final peace settlement.

In reality, I think this war will be long and harsh. This war also has an existential dimension because no country can or even deserves to exist if they can't take away such a threat. Netanyahu has also a personal interest in keeping this war going as long as possible. He will definitely be dethroned after. This war won't solve anything fundamental but it will change the situation which might be good enough.

Hopefully, some sensible and responsible people will replace him. And at least try to engage with the Palestinian leadership that is not totally batshit crazy. But again, it's very tricky because Israel's center, where metropolitan Tel Aviv lies is just a few miles away from the West Bank border so can you imagine a similar attack as we saw but then breaking into the very heart of Israel? 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Vrubel

[ShaharA]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If anyone in the IDF dared not to tow the party line they would be severely punished immediately by the leadership. There's no doubt about that.

It is true that military personnel are not supposed to express their personal opinion or give criticism. But you will be surprised to know that many senior military personnel in Israel sometimes express opposing positions to politicians, just yesterday the Chief of Staff implicitly criticized the fact that the government has not made a decision regarding ground entry for a long time. And there are other examples some of them are clear and direct criticism, the only "punishment" they usually get is criticism with words "that they should know their place" and not actual punishment.

[Leo Gura]

47 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Personally I have no problem with stopping the expansion.

Do you mean also to evacuate all the isolated settlements? Because this is almost unrealistic to evacuate 100,000+ people.

Not evacuate, but perhaps be willing to reassign those areas to the new Palestine state. Jews can live in Palestine too. And if they want to live in Israel so bad, they can sell and relocate. This is a reasonable compromise. Netanyahu has even proposed it.

Quote

And what about IDF presence in the west bank? After what happend, I fear that If IDF will leave the west bank, it might be too dangerous long term for the Israeli citiziens.

Hard to say. At the point, after shit has hit the fan, no one is safe.

41 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Leo Gura The whole strategy of Hamas is to make Israel kill as many civilians as possible. Because that is how Israel gets pressured and loses out on international support. I don't think they have any qualms about placing their nerve centers under hospitals, it's perfectly in line with their psychology and total disregard for anything. For them, it's strategically brilliant even straightforward and logical to put important command centers under hospitals.

Good point.

Yes, they are so weak and cornered that they will stoop to any low at this point. What else can they do?

14 minutes ago, ShaharA said:

And there are other examples some of them are clear and direct criticism, the only "punishment" they usually get is criticism with words "that they should know their place" and not actual punishment.

It's clear to me that if anyone there dared to express serious criticism of Israel's handling of Palestine they would be not only fired but probably blacklisted for life.

You have to distinguish between surface level criticism vs deep criticism like we do here on this forum.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[DawnC]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But that's a double-edged sword!

The US deep state is also so biased in their support for Israel that I cannot trust them either on this issue. Would the US really publicly debunk Israeli propaganda? I doubt it. I think anyone who tried to do that would be fired or reprimanded. The pro-Israel lobby in the US is very powerful and very biased.

The pro-Israel lobby in the US almost pressured the Bush administration to start a war with Iran back in the 9/11 era.

Watch this if you want to know more:

 

@Leo Gura

I have watched the entire video. In simplistic terms, it seems as if the research question they tackled was 'Why does the US have a special relationship and support for Israel?' The answer they arrived at was 'because of Israel-favored lobbies.' Unfortunately, the way they address the actual question is lacking depth and seriousness. They spend much more time on the answer than on the question. To me, this suggests that they either lack a deeper strategic and global perspective, or they conducted the research in the opposite direction—starting from their biased solution (treating Israel like a normal country) and working backwards to justify it with research (citing the influence of lobbies).

Even if I take their investigation seriously, the way they address the question indicates they have a limited view on two levels: a strategic level and the role of the US in the current global situation. From a strategic perspective, they fail to see how aligned the strategic interests of the US and Israel are (not to say that there aren't cases where they differ or that US and Israeli governments simply made strategic mistakes). They also have a totally misunderstanding of who their enemies are. I'm using the word 'enemy' here intentionally. If you misunderstand Putin or Khamenei, you have a major strategic problem. Understanding that someone is an enemy doesn't always mean going to war, but it does have an impact on your strategic viewpoint.

But I believe the deeper problem lies in a failure to recognize the role of the US as the keeper of world order. They tend to lean towards the belief that the sole interest of the US is its national security, and this perspective can be very dangerous for Americans to adopt. If Putin and Khamenei can act with impunity, Putin might have already taken over Ukraine by now, and it's only a matter of time until the entire Arab world falls under the control of Iranian militant groups. And I haven't even mentioned China. Maintaining world order requires force, and the American alternatives are very troubling. It may sound poetic for Americans to shy away from being a dominant power and be American centered, but the alternative players poses great danger to the entire world. I'm not sure they understand how significant this is.

And as for trust in US officials, I think you may be exaggerating in your assessment of unconditional support in terms of credibility, especially regarding the impact this would have on personal relationships with those involved. It's good to question this, but everyone is biased. It's important to be mindful of veering into conspiracy-like thinking where you can't trust anything.

Edited October 29, 2023 by DawnC

[Nivsch]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, they are so weak and cornered that they will stoop to any low at this point. What else can they do?

They could use all the millions $ they recieved from qatar (with israeli permissom) and the money the gazaish people gained from work in Israel (also with Israeli permission) and invest it to become singapore. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

They could use all the millions $ they recieved from qatar (with israeli permissom) and the money the gazaish people gained from work in Israel (also with Israeli permission) and invest it to become singapure.

They aren't developed enough to do that. Their survival situation is too dire to do that.

Singapore is a unqiely positioned trading hub. You can't assume that will translate to Gaza. Geography matters a lot.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura I understand they are in a difference place in their mentality (stage red) but maybe thats exactly why no matter what Israel do, they will interpret it as a weakness.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

Dr Gabor Mate on Israel/Palestine 

 

[DawnC]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Alternative #1: Less arial bombing of civilian buildings. Never bomb hospitals, etc. Allow water, fuel, and aid into Gaza.

Alternative #2: No invasion, invest heavily into strong defenses.

Alternative #3: Annouce end to settlement expansion policy and call Hamas to negotiate release of all hostages and final peace settlement.

None of the feed the thirst for blood, but they are sensible options.

#1 It's okay, but it is not a major diversion from what actually happens. It won't have a major positive effect from an Israeli perspective on anything besides maybe on how Israel is perceived by some Westerners (not even on how Palestinians perceive them). On the other hand, the negative can be crucial in terms of hostages' release, and the ability of Hamas to maintain its control command (that is exactly beneath hospitals).

#2 It fails to understand the regional situation. Israel cannot afford such action to take place without a response. The more that organizations like Hamas gain power on Israel's borders, the higher the risk for the country. Hiding behind their walls was the exact strategy that led to Hamas' ability to surprise them. Consider what would happen if there were a coordinated attack from Hezbollah, pro-Iran militant groups, and Iran's regime. This suggestion heavily plays into Iran's strategy to wear out Israel. From an Israeli perspective, they should be more proactive and not passive, and this is very reasonable. Edit: This also neglects the fact that Israel has 200 civilians held by Hamas.

#3 If you think that Hamas can be negotiated with for peace, you totally misunderstand what Hamas is. Good luck negotiating peace with Al-Qaeda, ISIS, WWII Japan, and the Nazis. Announcing an end to settlement expansion is actually a good suggestion, but it has not much to do with how to deal with Hamas in Gaza now. Also, I would target the focus on specific settlements and not on the entire project.

I highly suggest avoiding a mindset that is solely focused on finding a solution. These suggestions may not be helpful in reducing the intensity of this conflict. They might actually be more like 'Chamberlain deed'.

Edited October 29, 2023 by DawnC

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Good point.

Yes, they are so weak and cornered that they will stoop to any low at this point. What else can they do?

Hamas not giving a fuck makes them strong and allows them to run circles around the IDF. Caring is a weakness and handicap in this war. There are many things Israel can do but does not because it has accountability. But going soft is also not an option for Israel.

Israel's "fuel" is not as much "international support" but rather "international tacit condoning". 
After 3 weeks of fighting, I can see Israel still has a lot of fuel. Obviously, Israel doesn't care about random people protesting or even (Muslim) leaders making all kinds of statements, offering lip service to their people. I have not seen any concrete diplomatic steps by any country against Israel. They just don't want to break with Israel like for example, the West did with Russia. Some countries are like a canary in the coal mine. Like Turkey, even though Erdogan said "Israel is terrorist, Hamas is not", he did this at a rally for his voting base, not as a concrete diplomatic action. It was Israel who then retrieved its diplomats from Turkey but it's not yet a total break. Even from the (leaders of the) Arab world (outside the Iran axis), there is a tacit condoning of Israel's actions.

The only support that matters for Israel is US support, for the rest it can do with this tacit condoning. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Vrubel

[Kshantivadin]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura I understand they are in a difference place in their mentality (stage red) but maybe thats exactly why no matter what Israel do, they will interpret it as a weakness.

If you think that the majority of people in Gaza are in stage Red, you are deeply deluded. 

[Gennadiy1981]

13 hours ago, Philipp said:

@Gennadiy1981 what's interesting, is that you say palestinians don't allow israel to exist, but you don't allow Palestine to exist either. You basicly said that the entire region including Gaza and the west bank should belong to the jewish population. Does not seem like you are very different from one another in this regard. 

You are right, and we can have million arguments back and forth but the truth is this land can host only one state. You can give reasons and debates and talks but you need to understand something, Middle East and is not Middle West. Here different rules apply. This is a very small silver of land and hosting two states is impossible, they would not be viable to survive. Because if there is Palestine then there is no Israel. 
Why do you think this conflict is so hard and all solutions given are too simple. It’s not a Hamas vs Israel or it’s not even Palestine vs Israel, it’s a Jewish vs Arab conflict that is way deeper than that. 
And I will be flat with you, Israel will not create Palestine because that would be an end to Israel. Have you seen even the regional map of Israel, it’s not possible to geographically to make continuity if you do divide into two states. For example Gaza today cannot exist as a state, it needs to receive so much financial aid and that’s why it’s so poor and people are so frustrated there.

[Kshantivadin]

On 28/10/2023 at 7:16 AM, Lila9 said:

Israel doesn't kill innocent civilians on purpose, they are not driven by such ideology. They fight against terrorists which are Hamas and not against Palestinians.

I watched IDFs declare and they explain the systematic usage of Hamas of sensitive places like hospitals, they included illustration of the tunnels located under these places and the entire underground system where the control rooms of Hamas are. Very informative.

https://youtu.be/-ggBF9rnBe0?si=_QUzjZC7N4NpkJE4

Pray your place of living doesn't become a civilian building in a "sensitive place", I won't even mention your loved ones since you're this dense. You're part of the problem and I will pray that you realise this soon enough 

[Gennadiy1981]

10 hours ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

@Gennadiy1981 

If you are enlightened, you shall absolutely hate and despise every formalized in-group, such as religion. All religions, to me, are equivalent to soft Nazism at best and hard Nazism at worst. They promote a fixed mindset that fosters hate against humanity's unity, breeding division, which ultimately leads to hatred and a preference for one's own group, resulting in the hatred of other groups.

Even if the ego keeps denying this evident truth, they are all a mental poison and should not be tolerated at all. They make the mind aesthetically ugly, prompt you to pick imagined sides that are outside of love, and foster hate, hatred, despise, and negativity.

There is only hell and misery in identification with any in-group; enlightenment shall shatter these divisions entirely for the one thing that is worth it: love.

Ultimately, anyone who feels triggered by someone insulting their favored fairy tale has not truly touched real enlightenment at all.

 

@AerisVahnEphelia Thank you for the message. I want to give you a compliment that so far on this forum your message is the only message coming from an enlightened person, while everyone is throwing biases back and forth. And I see that you are truly actualized and spent many hours watching Leo’s videos and working on yourself. 

You may be correct to some point and probably in some idealistic case scenario it would work. But you need to understand that self survival here is at stake and when survival is concerned, all intellectuality goes down to drain. It’s like meeting bullies on the street and you need to fight to survive. Now a wise person may advise not to step down to their level, but if you don’t step down to their level, you may end up stepping six feet down. If you know what I mean. You need to speak the same language as otherwise you will not be understood.

Personally about me, at some point I was very religious person, doing enlightenment work moved me from stage blue to stage turquoise (sorry for not being humble but I am saying here for purely description purposes only)  of course I also went through all stages in between not saying that I skipped, I went through all. 
 

The more I try to move away from the Bible the more it moves with me. Maybe it is something embedded in me but there is so much truth in it, that a lot of things there are true. It’s not something to brush off.

Going to recent conflict. You may call me bias and I will admit I am, the most important is to be honest and thankfully I posses this character. Israel is also a survival for me. I can be all enlightened and etc, but when you go to bar in the suburbs in the United States and hear what comes out of the mouth of people when alcohol comes in, I quickly realized the danger for Jews in America and I heard really bad things such as blaming Jews for controlling the money, controlling the government, various conspiracy theories and much more which I won’t even go into here. So when majority have such attitude I have to worry about my self survival. And I will be honest with you, when push comes to shove, all people no matter what spiral dynamics they are, fall into beige level of just pure survival.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Gennadiy1981

[Nivsch]

45 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

If you think that the majority of people in Gaza are in stage Red, you are deeply deluded. 

RED-blue most of them.

In west bank they are more diverse from red, blue to less orange and some green especially millenials and z-gen.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[DawnC]

@Nivsch an optimistic assessment 😄

[lina]

 

21 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@lina There are minority of settlers that really do terror and have to be putted in prison on murder.

But the problem nothing actually happens and the government itself even supports them with weapons.

Since Israel is a democratic nation,  I think more Israelis must start taking action to voice their objection regarding what is happening in the west bank and east Jerusalem if they truly want to create path for peace.