New War In Israel / Gaza

[Merkabah Star]

4 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@Merkabah Star I am not labeling antisemitic those with opposing ideas, I am labeling those who compare us to nazis or saying we have no right to exist. It’s all same as was said thousand of years ago, nothing new under the sun.

As fas as civilians getting hurt, what can I say, those are the rules of engagement and war. Any was is bad, people will always get hurt. And you can be sympathetic to it, that’s perfectly fine, but we need to finish the job. 

I can’t recall anyone saying on this thread that Israel doesn’t have the right to exist. Israel 100% deserves to be there. 
 

civilians getting hurt? Oh well, I guess we should all ignore it.  😳😳
 

 

[zazen]

Israel can’t exists in its current form is what majority of people think, not that it shouldn’t exist at all.

Elon Musk providing star link satellite connectivity to aid groups in Gaza and Israel throws a temper tantrum like a child not able to get what they want - complete blackout on its atrocities. 
 

“Israel will use all its means to prevent the use of Starlink satellites in Gaza“

Israel uses Palestinians as human shields - reported by an Israeli human rights group itself.

https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields

A lot of what passes for human shield in Gaza are just civilians in proximity due to it being one of the mostly densely populated places on earth.

Edited October 29, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, ShaharA said:

The main headquarters of Hamas is under the largest hospital in Gaza:

 

This is Israel's fault who cause the palestinians to build this hospital in the first place because of their attacks on gaza 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, ShaharA said:

The main headquarters of Hamas is under the largest hospital in Gaza:

 

The problem is that Israel behaves in such a biased way overall that it's impossible to know if these presentations are true, or they are just war propaganda. There would need to be some 3rd party corroboration of this before we can believe it.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Lila9]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem is that Israel behaves in such a biased way overall that it's impossible to know if these presentations are true, or they are just war propaganda. There would need to be some 3rd party corroboration of this before we can believe it.

It looks pretty reliable to me. More than Hamas for sure. 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

It looks pretty reliable to me.

But that's how good propaganda would look.

The problem is that in the end you're just trusting Israel. But Israel is not an honest actor in all this, Israel has a huge survival bias here. Obviously Israel is more trustworthy than Hamas, but that's a very low bar. That doesn't mean you can trust their military spokespeople.

I have not seen a single Israel official honestly admit that their decades-long policy toward Palestinians was a causal factor in these Hamas terrorist attacks. And if they are unwilling to be honest about that, then they are not to be trusted. They can't just blame everything on Hamas without acknowledging any responsibility for this whole conflict. This terrorist attack -- barbaric and shameful as it was -- was just one incident is a much larger 70-year conflict, and to pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[DawnC]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But that's how good propaganda would look.

The problem is that in the end you're just trusting Israel. But Israel is not an honest actor in all this, Israel has a huge survival bias here. Obviously Israel is more trustworthy than Hamas, but that's not a low bar. That doesn't mean you can trust their military spokespeople.

I have not seen a single Israel official honestly admit that their decades-long policy toward Palestinians was a causal factor in these Hamas terrorist attacks. And if they are unwilling to be honest about that, then they are not to be trusted. They can't just blame everything on Hamas without acknowledging any responsibility for this whole conflict.

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem is that Israel behaves in such a biased way overall that it's impossible to know if these presentations are true, or they are just war propaganda. There would need to be some 3rd party corroboration of this before we can believe it.

Israel's and the US's intelligence agencies are so connected and collaborate on so many different levels now that presenting false claims or claims with no evidence would be easily disproven by the US. Israeli officials would not risk being perceived as highly unreliable by their American counterparts. They might be biased, but they understand credibility well enough.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Israel's and the US's intelligence agencies are so connected and collaborate on so many different levels now that presenting false claims or claims with no evidence would be easily disproven by the US.

But that's a double-edged sword!

The US deep state is also so biased in their support for Israel that I cannot trust them either on this issue. Would the US really publicly debunk Israeli propaganda? I doubt it. I think anyone who tried to do that would be fired or reprimanded. The pro-Israel lobby in the US is very powerful and very biased.

The pro-Israel lobby in the US almost pressured the Bush administration to start a war with Iran back in the 9/11 era.

Watch this if you want to know more:

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

John Mearsheimer has some of the best views on this whole war that I've seen:

 

[Nivsch]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I have not seen a single Israel official honestly admit that their decades-long policy toward Palestinians was a causal factor in these Hamas terrorist attacks. 

By decades long policy do you mean the occupation of the west bank?

But didn't the evacuation from gaza in 2005 was the best gesture Israel could do for the paleastinians there?

Why did the palestinians rejected all the proposals and agreements from Israel to retreat to 67' lines during 90's and 00's?

Can it be a reasonable option that, maybe, the occupation of just ISRAEL in 48' is really enough to fuel the palestinian resistance and terror?

Edited October 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[MuadDib]

US bias in a nutshell:
 

 

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

By decades long policy do you mean the occupation of the west bank?

I mean Netanyahu's policy of not trying to negotiate with the Palestinians any more, trying to just ignore the whole issue and going around their backs to make peace with the rest of the Middle East. In retrospect this policy backfired badly for the whole region. Because you can't just sweep the Palestinian issue under the rug.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I mean Netanyahu's policy of not trying to negotiate with the Palestinians any more, trying to just ignore the whole issue and going around their backs to make peace with the rest of the Middle East. In retrospect this policy backfired badly for the whole region. Because you can't just sweep the Palestinian issue under the rug.

I agree with this. 

And in the other hand, when we did the opposite and tried really hard to negotiate with them, also then, the answer from them was even more terror, especially during the decade after Oslo agreement in 1994, which resulted in more than 1000 murdered here, and all that without Netanyahu's help. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I agree with this. 

And in the other hand, when we did the opposite and tried really hard to negotiate with them, also then, the answer from them was even more terror, especiall during the decade after Oslo agreement in 1994, which resulted in more than 1000 murderers here, and all of that without Netanyahu's help. 

Yes, there's truth in both sides. That's the whole problem. If all the truth lay on one side the solution would be easy.

If there is to be peace, both sides have to start being honest and admitting mistakes. As long as one side just blames everything on the other there cannot be peace.

This whole thing is like therapy for a very bad arraigned marriage where divorce is impossible.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, there's truth in both sides. That's the whole problem. If all the truth lay on one side the solution would be easy.

If there is to be peace, both sides have to start being honest and admitting mistakes. As long as one side just blames everything on the other there cannot be peace.

The question is what we can do differently that will help? Because we got brutal terror attacks anyway, when we went fully forward them and when we didn't.

[Guest Tobia]

@Leo Gura

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, there's truth in both sides. That's the whole problem. If all the truth lay on one side the solution would be easy.

If there is to be peace, both sides have to start being honest and admitting mistakes. As long as one side just blames everything on the other there cannot be peace.

This whole thing is like therapy for a very bad arraigned marriage where divorce is impossible.

The entire framing of this argument is flawed. There is no "both sides" and no "bad marriage".

There is an occupied, besieged population with no army on one side and there is an occupier.

The Oslo accords was all about deciding which west bank settlement the arabs should be forced to accept. There was resistance to it because settlements are a crime, moving your own civilians to occupied territories is a war crime

[ShaharA]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That doesn't mean you can trust their military spokespeople.

 

Leave the presentation, do you actually believe that Hamas does not use the population as a human shield? There is a lot of evidence for this.
The military spokesperson goes on air twice a day and repeats the following sentence:
"Citizens of Gaza, move south!" And there is a lot of evidence that Hamas is preventing the people from leaving by blocking roads and threats, they are afraid of losing their human shield.
The Air Force scatters notes before the bombings so that civilians will evacuate.

Regarding the credibility of the presentation: it is very unlikely that the army will present claims without evidence backed by intelligence (unlike a politician who may indeed lie).

Edited October 29, 2023 by ShaharA

[Leo Gura]

57 minutes ago, Tobia said:

There is an occupied, besieged population with no army on one side and there is an occupier.

Far too simplistic.

I agree that settlements are bad. But Gaza has no settlements and no occupation.

You are conveniently ignoring the general low development level of Palestinian society. It's so low that it's very hard to make any kind of peace with them. Even if you make a peace deal, Jihadists will still attack because they will only accept a total defeat of the Israeli state. What do you do about these Jihadists? They will never listen to reason.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

52 minutes ago, ShaharA said:

Leave the presentation, do you actually believe that Hamas does not use the population as a human shield? There is a lot of evidence for this.

They definitely hide amoung the urban population. But then again, those are the conditions they have been cornered into.

Quote

The military spokesperson goes on air twice a day and repeats the following sentence:
"Citizens of Gaza, move south!" And there is a lot of evidence that Hamas is preventing the people from leaving by blocking roads and threats, they are afraid of losing their human shield.

Of course Hamas prevents people from listening to Israel, who they view as the devil.

Can you imagine if Nazis give your populations orders and you allow your people to follow them? That's how Hamas sees the IDF orders.

And also, they don't want to give up half of Gaza to Israel, for obvious reasons.

Quote

The Air Force scatters notes before the bombings so that civilians will evacuate.

Yes. This is good. But in practice not so effective.

Quote

Regarding the credibility of the presentation: it is very unlikely that the army will present claims without evidence backed by intelligence (unlike a politician who may indeed lie).

It's not at all unlikely. All such presentations are political weapons and they are all approved by politicians. Their army is not some objective source. If anyone in the IDF dared not to tow the party line they would be severely punished immediately by the leadership. There's no doubt about that.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

The question is what we can do differently that will help?

End settlement expansion would be a huge step towards peace. If Israel was serious about peace that would be the first step. But Israel wants to have their cake and eat it too.